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What was the worst design flaw in old tractors.

D

DFZ

Member
We have all worked on or used old tractors. Some good, some bad. I am sure most of you have wondered at one point in time... "WHY DID THEY BUILD IT THIS WAY?" or, "WHAT WERE THEY THINKING??".

I wondered what you thought were the worst design flaw in old tractors.

Some of the first flaws or just dumb designs that come to mind are:

Hand Brakes.... Not too good for an emergency stop if you have to steer around something....

Ford - Left brake next to clutch on left. Of course the worst mistake Ford ever did was not taking the blue prints for the 9N and enlarging them 40% and calling it a 10N, then again. Imagine in 1946 a Ford tractor with 3pt and a 280ci engine. Also the fact that Ford never made a row crop to compete with Farmall... HUGE Mistake.

John Deere - Brake locks that you have to be a contortionist to use. Even the newer 30 series were advertised as "Step up to farming Ease and Convenience". I don"t find anything easy about locking those brakes.

Farmall - Bad brake locks and how long does it take to design a dip stick for an engine.

All - One major design flaw in all early tractors was the lack of gears. Look at any old Farmall or AC and it has a large wasted space between the clutch and transmission. The first company that could have advertised a 10, 12, or even 16 speed transmission would have had a huge advantage over competition. But I guess a farmers time is not worth as much money as it is now...


So what do you think? I still love my antique tractors, but some days.... WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?
 
tractors with rear entrance next to the pto. I don't know if they even had pto guards. I know of a few farmers who got their floppy overall pantleg caught by the pto.
 
The high 5th gear on the Farmall M was a pain.

You had to be going downhill with a tailwind to get much use out of that.

On the other hand, I loved the Oliver 3 pedal brake system. Thought that was great.
 
And to add to that, tractors like the McCormick W4, where you not only got on next to the PTO, you sat virtually astride it while you were running it. I used to wrap my pantlegs with duct tape whenever I used a PTO powered implement on that rig.
 
The worst design flaw in any farm tractor that saw widespread use was the old Fordson F. The worm gearing in the rear end enabled the tractor to revolve around the rear axle under it's own power. Many farmers were killed when the rear wheels got good traction under heavy load and the tractor came right up and over them. Ford fixed that with those huge fenders that came as standard equipment in later years. The fenders met the ground causing the rear wheels to simply spin harmlessly. The tractor developed a quite a few other quirks that never quite got worked out of the design. Hard to start when hot. No brakes. Tended to jump into gear while idling in neutral. Worm gear in rear end got extremely hot after a few hours of heavy pulling. Seat was attached directly to the differential housing. Seat became unbearably hot after a while. Not to be critical but Ford did build a cultivating model of the old Fordson. And, I saw one picture of an 8N with a narrow front. Palmer Fossum had it in his collection. And, the 760s and 960s were narrow front models that are still around.
 
I thought the biggest mistake Ford made was sticking with the flathead on the 8N instead of putting a more modern OHV engine in it. The only thing more primitive that salesmen could push onto farmers was the 2 cylinder Johnny Poppers.
 
Hmmm. The clutch and flywheel on a John deere 60. One wrong setting and they can be ruined for good.

Farmall would be the oil Fill near the cap on an H,M. Have seen 3 of those damn things come lose and get sucked into the fan EXPENSIVE. never happened to me. Also the lack of gearing in the original H and M. No good gear to tow a hay trailer with.

Farmall with the T/A's NO NOT THEM MAKING THEM. They should ahve given the owner a lesson in adjustment when the bought them.

Crawlers in general on the time period- Hand clutches.

John deere M- Steering wheel angle. Not comfortable (at least for me)

Farmall Cub and A weak front end and rear castings.

Thats all i can think of ( except for the john deere M i ahve owned or do own all the above) wouldnt trade um for the world
 
Design flaws are mostly safety issues.

Farmall H. Gas tank is right above the battery.

All old tractors dont have the roll bar.

No floor on the Allis Chalmers B, not real serious but a Pain in the Arse. A friend of mine had one.

No sealing gas cap on the gas tanks, fire hazard.
 
The double neutral on the old Olivers and the left hand throttle on some old Case's where the hand clutch is also on the left side.
 
The double neutral on the old Olivers and the left hand throttle on some old Case's where the hand clutch is also on the left side.
 
Probably the most serious flaw in most old tractors was what we now call "ergonomics". But if you would have asked a farmer of that day in the 30's & 40's what would you like "comfort & convenience" or "reliability & cost" the answer would have not had much to do with comfort. I know what Dad would have said. Besides all that contortionist stuff keeps our arthritis from getting the best of us.
Paul
 
how about the old A/C that had the foot clutch that did not come out at the same height as the brakes seems like the guys who run them walk with a limp and the flip over seat on the WD-45 darn near got me good a couple times not being mean as A/C was a pretty good tractor,no one has said anything about the high speed reverse on the 8N's also had a JD 60 that would back up in a hurry
 
THOSE DAM !!##BLINKIN TELISCOPING PTO COVERS. Every company used them. Aukward never stayed latched at either end. Fell onto PTO shaft and flailed around and most ended up in the junk pile Then as others said, rear entry tractors became dangerous.
 
How bout' the seat placement on a WC or WD Allis.
Looks like they got it all done and someone said "Dang, we forgot the seat! Here's a couple holes, lets set it here!" Works really great if you were born with youre left leg three inches longer than the right one. (grin) Of course, I've got two of them.
One thing they DTD get right and that was the governor. All the others only wish they had one that good.


Another one, the throttle on a Ferguson 20 through 40, Never would stay where you put it. That friction disc should have been the size of a saucer.

Irv*
 
Fast reverse, I'D say. Pity the poor devil hanging onto the wagon tongue when you went to hook up. About two foot a pop, I'm guessing.

Irv*
 
The 9N could have been better but it was the first commercial on a wide scale tractor with the Ferguson system and set the stage for the greatest innovation ever put on a tractor. I wouldn't call not having a row crop a huge mistake. I'd call every manufacturer that didn't make the deal Ford did with Ferguson a HUGE mistake. The 3 pt. hitch also made rear entry on tractors obsolete. Dave
 
Well depends on who you ask ? So far the owners have chimed in.
Now if you were to talk to the makers of these units I bet they will all say the biggest flaw was they were built too darn good and lasted WAY too long !!!! That's why they don't make things like this anymore.
 
Can you imagine these young guys today with those drooopy drawers running an old tractor. I ain't goin no further with that. I just let you imagine............

Irv*
 
DFZ, I've mentioned this many times, but there are still alot of Ford tractor owners that doesn't realize the brake on the clutch side works as a hand brake when you pull it upward. That is why there is a little upward curve in the brake.
 
I'd have to go with hand clutches in general. Especially on old tractors that didn't have power steering. And someone already mentioned reverse gear on the 8Ns. Rediculously fast!
 
This will tick a few Case guys off, but that Case-O-Matic without a real clutch. They were a real pain if the baler came to a big wad of hay, and you had to stop the forward speed, then advance. You had to throttle down before engaging the forward motion, thus your pto was slow at gaining RPM's.

On anything other than PTO, they were real nice to operate.

Case with the steering arm on the SC, CC, DC's etc when making a right turn near a fence.

JD hand clutches when backing a over sized load, but it was sweet when hooking to a implment, as you did not have to get on the seat to move the tractor a couple inches.
 
how about adjusting the rear wheel spacing on john deere letter series waterloo tractors. (after it hasnt been touched for 20 years) bill m.
 
I know what you are saying when bailing in wadded windrows. Wasn't any inching your way through a wad. I guess a Case salesman would have to turn this "handicap" into a sales opertunity to sell a rake that didn't bunch up the windrow and offer a baler that had a real appatite for hay.
 
Not the worst design flaw but the 70 series Case power shift when backing up to an implement "really jumpy" usually whomever was dropping the pin looked like a bull rider getting in the chute always looking for a place to bail and listening for the engine and hydraulics to change pitch but overall a decent tractor.
 
Hi Pat-CT: Your comment: Farmall with the T/A's NO NOT THEM MAKING THEM. They should ahve given the owner a lesson in adjustment when the bought them. End Quote:
I really think a huge company that it was in 1954 could have designed a longer lasting TA... Geepers. My father was buying an end of year Super MD and the first SM-TA was setting there and he did not want it. His reason was.. wait 3 or 4 years for the "Improved TA" after being feild tested by farmers who didn't read instructions near as much as they do today... He was right on. Adjusting should have been built in to a large extent. ag
 
A young farm ask me the other day (and if its not green he won't have it)_why JD was the only tractor that had a belt pully. Told him its the only tractor that you could not remove it. They all had them. Must of been a big problem with that clutch system on the JD's cause the dust cover was the first thing to go.
 
can see you never cultivated with a front mount AC...the offset seat was sweet to keep a no PS tractor in the right place on a cotton row
 
Frank, one wire and 2 cap screws (3 minutes)and
the dist. is out on your workbench. Cam offset so
you can only get it back on correct. Chuck
 
Hand starting a JD with the flywheel. Can you immagine what OSHA would have said? Speaking of starting- how long did it take JD to finally use and electric starter?
 
Hey toolz:
Just cause you got all them wrenches - ah, ah. ah!

Tremont should be the first of June - gonna be there?

Jim
 
I know of one guy that was getting on a WC with the pto running. His pant leg caught the too long pto pin. He bear hugged the steering wheel, the pto stretched him out then ripped his overalls off and tore them up. He finished cutting hay in his underwear. 30 years later, the same thing happed with his WD45. His reflexes were still fast enough to grab the steering.
 
Case shoulda used 1st ,.instead of 2nd or maybe it is 3rd on the power shift as a reverse gear/.. I have ft. Clutch 1954 SC and DC ,. /why these tractors shift patterns are TOTALLY different defies all engineering , manufacturing,service,and repair and ABOVE ALL MARKETING knowledge and logic/....earlier handclutch SC and DC compounded the familiar irregularities problem WITH A HAND CLUTC ON OPPOSITE SIDES .. The brake lock lever problem is easily solved with a sash cord string draping across tranny... the sc has a lousey spot for the battery that only allows short batteries ,..2or 3 inches of space is available in short work for a guy with awelder and cutting torch handy ..
 
Splined crank was fine until some hack retard tries to #1 torque used bolts. #2 tighten critical fasteners without a torque wrench.
 
That isn't true and you know it.
The dust cover disapeared for the same reason pto shields and fenders were tossed. The same crude hack would also use a cold chisel to replace the muffler.
 
Amazing how useful how much in demand,the price and how much those tractors are still used to this day.
From the same company that grew and prospered .While everybody else went broke, merged and were bought out.
 
Sad to say his reflexes may have been fast or he was fat enough his clothes tore. Instead of being able to pull his weight.
Looks like he didn't learn the first time.
 
Irv, I was just about to post the rediculous way the WD And WD45 were built and then I came to your post. You sure hit the nail on the head there. They were good old tough tractors but they sure quit early before they were done building it. In 1956 for example, compare it with the comforts of other models. It was a true dinasaur. I had one and I fixed it into a comfort model. I centered the steering wheel, centered the seat, lowered the clutch pedel, sawed off the hand clutch to where it did not fly back and hit you on the inside of the knee cap, and installed floor boards. I then made a nice dash board with all the controls within easy reach. It made a good driving, comfortable tractor out of it. Allis destroyed many good mens back with that crude old beast and never even got sued over it. I am not an engineer, just a retired beaurocrat, but I came up with a much better design than the Allis chalmers people. If they had built it like I did , they would probably have sold even thousands more of them, and I am sure many old farmers would have extended their careers for several more years.
 
I knew of a B and a 70 jd that had jumpy hand clutches, no way I would have stood behind them, Case on the other hand had a very smooth wet hand clutch, I drove the neighbors 720jd once, had to be the clumsiest tractor I ever operated, sure was a pleasure to get back on an 830 Case, most of the 2cyls are parade queens around here, while the IH's Olivers ect. are still earning their keep, 2cyls were obsolete in the 30's and the later a/b st. 6spd. trans were hard to shift. I am glad that Dad having started farming with an us ajd, bettered himself by getting away from them.
 
That clutch should have been adjusted right. all of our hand clutches are smooth and easy. and you got to idle that thing down, 2 cyl. You are just a green hater. Most people on here find the flaws on tractors they dislike. never the Great brand they owned.
 
Also, left-handed equipment was popular then, and easier to see with the offset seat. More room to slide in from the side as well.
 
I use a 3pt all spring;plowing,planting,cultivating,etc.PTOs all summer;cuttyng,baleing,stacking.3pt AND pto;hay rake,sprayer,post hole digger.All the older tractors had flows,but that didnt stop us from loveing them!
 
My TA works fine in my 2 560 IHC and my old 400 IHC. I use my 400 in tractor pulls and tood 1st. place last year and in 2008 too. good old ta in them all
 
My dad just loved the COM, and we were forever cleaning the glase off the brakes so they would hold a tractor runnung PTO speed, and stopping the tractor in a lower gear. The guy on the wagon always got a good scare everytime it hit direct drive.

The jerking could be second fiddle to me and my dads JD A running probably full throttle on the baler. I was only eight years old and very determined to get the hand clutch pulled, and shifted in to nuteral, and then sticking the clutch to get a wad thru, without breaking a shear pin. Those JD's had first and reverse directly across from one another. I did not realize till then that my dad could jump from the wagon, across the baler and by my side like super man in such a short time.

By the way JD's were noted for a pretty fast reverse also.
 
Forgot about the wartime IH H model that came with steel wheels, and fifth gear was suposed to be locked out. Once it was wore a little, it wasn't imposible for some young farm boys to get going down a steep hill and .......well you know boys will be boys when a adult isn't around. Talk about slinging chunks of dirt in a hay field, it was hard to see because I was trying to hang on so hard.
 
Did you ever hear of anyone getting a broken arm or other injury from cranking a Deere? I'm not saying it didn't happen, but the design... cranking the flywheel... AFAIK caused FAR less injuries than cranks did.

Comments?
 
"Case had a smooth clutch"

Ever been around a 1370 or similar abomination? Now THAT'S a SMOOTH clutch/transmission!
 
I use the pto for a tiller and mower on the 3 pt. as well as a rear blade and box blade. The number of tractors with a 3 pt. would out number the number without. 3 pt. hitches are popular in Europe along with front 3 point hitches. Believe it or not but Europe is way ahead of N. America in a lot of innovations on tractors. Dave
 
Well, of course, Jim! I'll be there with two, three if I get the truck, trailer ready. See you there!
 
I will add one that has not been said, the drawbar on the ford row crop models. Where they made that curve down shoulda been a little thicker. Most all you see have been welded. Many tractors you find have a utilty draw bar on them or some one just burnt a hole in what was left of the old one and made a sort one that was too high. My grandfather said he had to weld the bar on his 961 up 3 times. The last weld lasted 15 years, I don't know if he got it right then or if he just bought a bigger tractor to pull stumps with.
 
Getting on/off a BF Minn Mo with out breaking something or loosing something you migh want to use or putting imoliments on a Super C Farmall by yourself.
 
case sc is the worst , they made a nice tractor then added the steering , got to be the worst in design.
 
Power steering on the IH 300/350 utilities
Brake pedals on a JD 50
Clutch on a Case L. Have to hold the steering wheel with both hands to push it down.
Hydraulic clutch on a JD 2955. Takes 2 people to service it.
Gear shift locking pin on a WD45. Gear shift flopped all over the place.
 
Can anyone find a SC arm virgin that has never been bent???? that leveraged steering was loved by farm kids , who grew weary of trying to steer the old fords and 35 fergusons ,...Case ENGINEERS Soulda known that a solid rod steering arm would bend easier than a pipe arm that was on the DC.the sc were coming in bent and the dc were holding just fine ... definite design flw from beginning . but case kept installing the soild bendable rod on thru 1955
 
clutch pedal on a MF 135 requires you to push down, not forward. I spent a million hours on one in the hay fields, my left knee still hurts.
 
Do you get offended everytime someone says that "Mother Deere" is not perfect?

I love IH but don't take offense to it when someone else doesn't.

To add to the list (farmall):
1. the tooth style throttle on the farmalls
2. the cream grill on the 50 series
3. the steering on the 300 and 350 utilites
4. the free wheeling on the old mechanical TA's
5. the reversed direction of the hydraulis controls of the 00 and 50 series

Other than those few nit pickin' items, they are still the best tractors around (in my opinion anyways)

And for all the tractors:
Every seat should have had a back rest!!!!
 
Muffler change-ut procedure on the JD letter series; you had to half dismantle the tractor just to remove 4 9/16" cap screws to replace the muffler.

What were they thinking?
 
On my 86 Kubota they left the cross member in the front of the tranny about 3/8 in. to high and you have to split the tractor to remove the PTO shaft.
Walt
 
On the3 Ih 1066 PTO control to replace the 540 outer seal one has to completely remove the PTO control and disassemble it right to the last piece to get the seal out. Real bummer hear.
Walt
 
I know you are not going to believe this. but
I cranked a old "G" John Deere when I was 7
years old with the flywheel in 1947.
 
Somewhere in there has to be the early farmall regular flat seat spring suspending the farmer in mid air behind the tractor. If that one broke they dropped farmer Bob right in front of the trailing implement!
 
Of course they use a taper. It's either that or pull the crank and have it welded and re-ground.
Explain all the flywheels and splines that never shook loose and wore out.
No matter what the machine or kind of mechanical joint. If the fastener is over torqued and stretched. Or under torque and lacks clamping force. The parts will be free to move. Even a Briggs flywheel will shake loose if the nut isn’t tightened.
 
I watched at an antique show as a little shiveled up old man who used a walker. Used his weight to lean/pull a D's flywheel and started it. Crafty old bird knew what he was doing.
I had previously spent several minutes working up a sweat with only the occassional sputter for results.
 
Have to agree about the seat position on the ACs.

Also, though I've never actually driven one, I would have to say that a hand clutch on the other brands would be a deal-breaker for me.
 
I have put this on the forum before. When I was 14 yeaes old, I was out behind the barn unhooking
a blade off a 8n ford. The pto was running and I swung my right leg back over the seat to try to kick lift arm loose off the pin on the blade. We had a 1/4" bolt through the adapter and it caught my pants leg. I had on new Levi's that were wet and rolled up a couple of rolls. It wound me up so tight it stalled the motor. ( thank goodness the motor was at a idle.) The bolt was chewing up my leg until it stalled.
We were having a good ol West texas sandstorm at the time, so no one could hear me scream. I finally got my witts about me and leaned back and got the pto out of gear. I unwound myself and walked into the house and my Mother took one look at my leg and fainted. I am now 70 years old and still have a large scar on my right calf. The only other thing that saved me is that it pulled me straight down on the seat.
 
I thought of a few more design flaws.

How about the brake pedals themselves on an older Deere. Sitting on the seat, you have to lift both feet straight up about 8" and spread your knees out wide to get both feet on the pedals at the same time. Try keeping one hand on the wheel, one on the clutch, and raise both feet to step on the brakes evenly while on a fairly steep sidehill without falling out of the seat. (No seat belts)...

Last year for the first time I drove an older MF 65. The multipower does not hold the tractor back going downhill if it is shifted into low. Reading some of the other posts it sounds like some of the old Farmalls were the same way. I wonder how many people were killed/injured when they turned somebody loose driving one of those and told them how great it was that they had two speeds in each gear.

As somebody else mentioned seat position. I own a MM UTU. I have never heard of a seat breaking off and somebody falling, but I could bet that it did happen. How many years did it take all the manufacturers to discover that if they move the seat in front of the rear axle it smooths out the ride.

I have driven a AC C, and a JD M. You take your life in your hands trying to get on them. Good luck if the steel and tires are wet or covered in mud.

Almost forgot... Gear boxes such as the front steering pedestal on my UTU. I live in a wet climate. There should be a law, Every Gearbox Needs A Drain!. Water gets in, pushes the oil out. On my UTU, before I added a drain, you would of needed to remove the hood, grill, radiator, and steering gear cover to clean out the oil and water (Unless you pull the level plug and stand the tractor on its tail) I think most all manufacturers were guilty of this.

I wish to thank all of you who came up with original design flaws for these old tractors we all love. I also would like to thank all of you who pointed out how foolish the rest of us were for not knowing how to overcome and deal with the problems the various manufactures gave us. :D
 
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