Anti-Seize on Lug Nuts

I have a 2005 Expedition, went to Wally World yesterday to have new tires put on and they could not break the lug nuts loose on the two front wheels. I have been told this is a problem for this year model as well as the F150. Any way the guy told I should make sure that anti-seize compound is used on the lug nuts every time. I went to another tire store to have the tires mounted and they said never use any type of lube on lug nuts just torque them to 110 ft lbs.

Which is right in your opinions, use anti-seize or not?

I was always told not to use any lube on lug nuts,sounds like they were over torgued the last time the tires were rotated.

I always put a little bit of grease on them, it helps when you drive in harsh conditions and prevents twisting them off. The dish on the rim where the bolt goes through is supposed to keep the bolts tight.

I also put a dab of grease on them. Been doing it that way since the mid sixties. Haven't lost one yet, and one vehicle I've had since '68.

Use antisieze lube. It is graphite based and will not attract dirt and brake dust. If torqued properly, it will not cause them to loosen.

I use anti-seize and never any problems with lug nuts becoming loose. Hal

Anti-seize on the threads, none ever on the washers, flats, tapers or clamping surfaces. This is pretty much reasonable thinking. Bolts have as much strength left for holding as the tightening leaves. This relationship is engineered into the torque setting. Many over tightened studs break off. Jim

I use it on not only the lugs but on the center hole area where the rims like to stick and never any problems. And I never tighten the lugs like they do at the tire stores, they have ruined many a lug nut by streatching the threads and have had to actually take the torch and cut the bolts off where they over tightened them and had to replace rims because of that.

I've been using it for 40 years on all wheel studs and nuts, since I've always lived in a salt-belt. I think you'd be foolish not too.

My daughter bought a 2002 Ford Focus when it was only 1 year old. When she took it in to have snow tires mounted, the jerks at the tire shop broke off several studs. Then said it wasn't their fault. I had to fix it and then put some Never-Seiz on them Actually I use a different brand I buy in bulk that is cheaper.

In my opinion, anybody that sticks an air-gun on the lugs and snaps them off, certainly IS at fault. When I do it by hand, I can feel when something is going to break. If so, I put some heat on it and then remove. That's a heck of a lot easier and cheaper then fixing broken studs.

I keep a little on mine. Lubricated threads are desirable to achieve proper torque.

I always use anti-sieze on lug nuts and about everything else. All any lubricant does is reduce the friction coefficient required to achieve the optium reccomended stretch of any given bolt, bolt torque is the force in foot pounds required to achieve the optium stretch. Every bolt manufacturer has charts giving the optium torque of all bolts and studs they manufacture using various lubricants and or dry, the better the lubricant the less torque required, for example, bolts lubricated with moly lube usually require the least torque. Lubricating any bolt is not going to cause the bolt to get loose or back off.

Put something on them, you pick what but the graphite spray lube is convenient and easy to keep around. What I use on just about everything is the motorcycle chain lube in the spray can.

Dave

(quoted from post at 07:52:51 04/04/10) Put something on them, you pick what but the graphite spray lube is convenient and easy to keep around. What I use on just about everything is the motorcycle chain lube in the spray can.

Dave

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have a rule:When it goes back together it gets anti-seize including lug nuts.

If you can tell that something is about to break it is too late you have already damaged the fastener. Even if you get it apart with lube and heat the damage is done and it is a safety hazard as it looks fine but it is not. One more thing about heat if you add too much you will change the structure of the metal and even though it looks fine and tightens fine does not mean it is fine. Once again we have an unsafe situation of a damaged bolt (made softer or more brittle with heat).

Take away:
If you have to use heat to remove the lug nut then you should probably replace the stud any way. Unless it makes it easier with a longer stud to remove it for replacement I would use the impact to take them off. If they break they break and you know they have to be replaced.

Aluminum or steel wheels? Salted and rusty or corroded?

There are several conditions that can keep them from coming loose and each takes a different approach.

Whether to lube the threads or not is anyone's guess but if a wheel comes off and ends up with a lawsuit, the person who put lube on will be paying.

Bingo!

Dean

I usually add a squirt of oil on my tractor wheel studs. I don't usually do much for my auto wheel studs. The only time I had a tire come off, is when I forgot to tighten the nuts. That was on my 65 VW. I guess it's another problem when the cities add salt on the roads, back east. Stan

Been using it on lug nuts for 45 years and never had one loosen.

If using heat on the lug nuts, you had better be careful of PYROLOSIS. Google pyrolosis & welding & you should come up with a vidieo by Bridgestone about blowing up a truck tire. Maybe someone could provide the link.

I don't believe it, period.

First of all, I certainly CAN tell when a fastener is turning too hard and liable to break.

If you can't, then they that's your particular short-coming and does not apply to everybody that turns a wrench. Some people DO have more skills then others.

Second, heat certainly CAN be applied carefully without harming the heat-treating of a stud or nut. If you don't know how, again that is your particular problem. No personal slight intended here, but I regard what you stated to be pure nonsense. I'm not talking about heating cherry or orange red, nor am I discussing "quenching."

If a fastener feels like it's going to break, sometimes just a little heat is all it needs. Then once off, a clean-up with a tap an die puts all back in pretty good order. Heat DOES force a nut to expand and can do so with no effect on its integrity. You just need to get the nut hot before the stud.

I've been doing it on cars, small trucks, heavy trucks, tractors, and other heavy equipment for 40 years and can't say I ever experienced a failed piece of hardware due to using moderate heat on it.

Often something breaks with an impact because it's turning too fast or to hard, or in the wrong direction.

One example with is %100 true. Next to our John Deere dealership a new Goodyear tire store opened up. I had a Toyota pickup at the time. This place had a reputation of breaking studs of cars and trucks and would never stand behind their screw ups. They had just broken studs on my boss's wife's car. So, in front of my boss, I jacked up my Toyota, and removed all four wheels and all lug nuts by hand - no problem. Why? Just to prove none were rusted stuck. I then went to the tire store and left it there to get four new tires. They called me up a few hours later and told me I had three broken studs, and I would need to pay them an extra $100 to fix. To make a long story short, I almost brought a law-suit against them - since I had witnesses that they lying. In the end, they gave me the new tires for free, also fixed the broken studs, but . . . told me never to come back to their business. They're out of business now. Used to be Ruas Tire Service in Oneonta, Otsego County, New York.

Note that in New York, a mandated motor vehicle inspection requires removal of wheels to inspect brakes. With my 1969 Dodge Power Wagon, twice my studs have been broken off at inpection stations with air wrenches in the hand of incompetent jerks. Why? My Dodge has left-hand nuts and studs on two wheels. They are are marked with an "L", and also, both times, I reminded the shops about the left-hand hardware. They broke it anyway, turning it the wrong way.

No reputable shop should be using a air gun without some sort of torque control and should never be using air guns to tighten on disk brake setups. Countly rotors have been ruined by air guns.

By the way, this IS an antique tractor forum. I suppose when working on old tractors, you never use heat to remove any hardware unless all is replaced with new? Boy, I'm glad you're not working on any of my tractors!

A person who puts lube on a lug-nut, and it later falls off, is not going to automatically held repsonsible for the failure. That's a bit silly.

Seems it would have to be proven that he also did not torque down the hardware to specs? And if he did, it likely would not fall off.

If you use good quality grease on your lug nuts you dont even need anti sieze. At least thats what my Dad has been using for 50 years. If you use grease everytime you take the wheels off and they still rusting on then you are not rotating your tires enough. I have been using an impact gun on aluminum wheels for 15 years and I have never broken one or ruind any disc brakes. If you are maybe thats your short coming.

My "short-coming" perhaps. And, maybe there are differences in impact guns and how much torque they generate? Differences in max air pressure used in differnent shops? Differences in design and thickness of the thousands of different brake rotors out there? Difference in the people using the air guns? Maybe you think everybody and everything, everywhere, is the same?

In regard to your aluminum wheels, I'm not sure what has to do with the steel fastens that hold the wheels on, or the steel brake rotors behind it?

Many, many, brake rotors have been ruined by shops using air guns on them. That is an easily verified fact.

I also wonder how many overtorqued studs have been ruined by careless idiots using air-guns. I also wonder how many people have gotten stuck in middle of nowhwere with a flat tire they could not get off since it had been overtightened with an air-wrench?

By way, I never said an air-wrench can never be used without damage. Like any tool, it is only as good as the person who is using it.

I'm not the one that has been making sweeping generalized statements on these posts.

On big trucks Ive used antisieze or a drop of oil.If you use antisieze you dont have to use a bunch of it and if it gets built up you need to clean it off of the threads just like if the threads are rusty it helps to clean the rust off with a wire brush or a wire brush on a die grinder and then a drop of oil will make getting them off a lot easier usually.If they have been on a long time and are badly rusted you may need to heat them up.On all of it you need to be sensible.You dont need to heat it glowing red and you dont need to coat every part of the lug bolt with antiseize.I dont see a lot of difference in using antiseize or a drop of oil on big truck wheels.Time and rust will make it hard to get them off.They might come off a little better with the antisieze especially on aluminum wheels.
Now as for Wal Mart not being able to get your wheels off of an F150,I dont know.I think you could get a break over bar and get them broke loose,or heat them a little.I havent ever seen car or pickup wheels I couldnt get the lug nuts off of.Ive seen some that were overtightened with an impact wrench.If you want to put antisieze on them and torque them they ought to be alright,but if you put them on dry you still ought to be able to get them off.It might be difficult,and probably will be more difficult than with antisieze on them,but you should be able to get them off if you torque them right when you put them on.

OK someone mentioned pyrolosis earlier in the thread. I never felt comfy heating or welding on a tire assembly and now I really have something to back that up.

Watch the video folks. It is a real eye opener.

jt
Pyrolisis video

For the last twenty years or so I always just snug the nuts with an impact wrench. Then I use a torque wrench to finish. I had a Dodge pickup that I had a flat on in the middle of Wyoming. Fifty miles from the nearest exit. Tire shop installed new tires for the trip. Broke four of the lug nuts off and had to use a cheater pipe that a friendly trucker happened to have. I always torque my wheels to factory specs. If at a tire shop I do it while they watch.

LAA below has it exactly right!

No one ever said the american legal system wasn"t silly. When the defendants heir"s lawyer ask the factory witness if the lugs and studs have any form of lubrication put on at the factory the answer will be NO.

When the lawyer asks if it is a manufacturer recommendation to put lubricant on the studs an nuts the answer will be NO.

End of case. The defendants heirs win.

Hi jdemaris: I think you made some good points about "details." Details about how much heat and where it is applied can make a difference, for sure.. I'll agree to your comment-->"If a fastener feels like it's going to break, sometimes just a little heat is all it needs. Then once off, a clean-up with a tap an die puts all back in pretty good order. Heat DOES force a nut to expand and can do so with no effect on its integrity. You just need to get the nut hot before the stud." end of quote. Just about everything in life has "details" that can make or break the issue... ag

You need to have THEM do it while you watch. If you want to check them later, OK, but don't let the shop see you(owner) do it.

Worse thing ever is giving a air impact to a kid under 26. I had a person at a name brand tire store put the lugs on a 76 ford van tight enough to weld the nuts to the wheels.

After a little suggesting they replaced the wheels and lug nuts and studs. They had a compressor set for 250 PSI with no regulation to the air hoses. A good 1/2 inch impact can really torque with that much.

And, all wheels at my shop are torqued by hand with all previous lube removed from studs and nuts. Torque specs are set for dry thread contact.

LAA is correct, but I have a couple of things to add. I reduce the tightening torque recommended for dry studs and nuts by 10% when using moly grease on the studs (100 ft-lb goes to 90 ft-lb). 300 to 400 temperatures will change the strength of the metal in some cases, so be very careful when heating nuts so they can be removed.

Didnt you say that aluminum wheels can be ruined by overtightening? My shop pressure is 170 psi.

Wanna know what the Ford factory procedure is?Here it is for a 05 Ford Expedition.Take it or leave it,it's up to you.

Installation


WARNING: When a wheel is installed, always remove any corrosion, dirt or foreign material present on the mounting surfaces of the wheel or the surface of the wheel hub, brake drum or brake disc that contacts the wheel. Installing wheels without correct metal-to-metal contact at the wheel mounting surfaces can cause the wheel nuts to loosen and the wheel to come off while the vehicle is in motion, causing loss of control. WARNING: Retighten at 800 km (500 miles) after any wheel change or any time the wheel nuts are loosened. WARNING: Failure to retighten wheel nuts at the mileage specified could allow wheels to come off while the vehicle is in motion, possibly causing loss of vehicle control and collision. Clean the wheel hub mounting surface.
CAUTION: Make sure to apply a thin coat of anti-seize lubricant to the hub pilot surface only. Do not allow the lubricant to make contact with the wheel studs, brake pads or brake disc. Apply a thin coat of anti-seize lubricant to the wheel hub pilot surface.
Install the tire and wheel assembly.
Position the tire and wheel assembly.
Install the wheel nuts, hand-tight, then lower the vehicle.
CAUTION: Failure to tighten the wheel nuts in a star pattern can result in high brake disc runout, which will speed up the development of brake roughness, shudder and vibration. Tighten the wheel nuts in sequence.
Install the center cap.
If equipped, turn the air suspension switch to the ON position.

Actually it is I that am glad you are not working on my equipment.
If you read my post you realize I did say "too much heat". I will stand behind my statement if you feel the fastener yield it is too late to save it. You can run the die up and down the treads all day and it will not restore the strength to the fastener. Sure it may be strong enough to hold the wheel on for most events. But you have no way of knowing if there have been any stresses: cracks, elongations, or other deformations introduced just waiting to break. When it comes to wheels I remove with an impact and install with a torque wrench. I have only broken a few studs and those were so corroded I expected them to break, and replaced all of the studs even those on the wheel that did not break.

I've been in the auto repair business 22 years now. I've never broken any studs or warped any rotors. The key is using a torque wrench or in my case torque sticks on an impact. The only time I've ever had any trouble is when someone before me cross treaded them once. Sometimes a little heat works, sometimes it doesn't. Before I have to twist any studs off, I let the customer know and they can decide if they want to continue. Nothing wrong with using air tools. Just need to know what you're doing.

I always put a little anti-seize on the lugs and I paint it onto any part of the hub that contacts the rim. I've never had a lugnut loosen up on me but I still check them every once in awhile just in case out of habit.

I've been checking lugnuts occasionally to make sure they're tight since I started driving but I've only used anti-seize for the last 7-8 years and never had one loosen up. Not saying it can't/won't happen, it just hasn't happened to me.

I can read pretty well and your warning certainly was not just about "too much heat."

You stated, "Even if you get it apart with lube and heat the damage is done and it is a safety hazard as it looks fine but it is not . . . "

That is utter nonsense. Does it happen sometimes when hardware is overstressed, overheated, etc. ? Sure. Some people can screw anything up, and even someone who knows what he/she is doing will find fasteners that cannot be removed without damange. Certainly not all that are heated as you claim. If you mean what your words convey in everyday English, you are incorrect.

Your later comment, i.e. " if you feel the fastener yield it is too late to save it. "

That is even MORE nonsense. When a normal nut comes loose, it's yielding, rusty or lubed. It's a matter of how much torque it takes to yield. A bolt is a spring and had a yield point. If a nut seems to be rusted/stuck, and the normal amount of torque is not turning it, and adding some heat THEN allows it to turn, there is no change in metalurgy, no over-stress, and no problem.

Anybody who's in business ought to be using those color-coded torque sticks IF using an air-gun. Especially with cars with light-duty rotors that have the wheel studs fastened directly to them.

If you're asking me, NO I never said anything about ruining aluminum wheels with an air gun. It's all there in writing to re-read and verify in regard to anything anybody has stated on these forums.

I said many brake rotors have been ruined with air-guns. Mosty the light-duty rotors on smaller cars that have the studs fastened directly to the rotor. Very common problem. Person brings their car for some tire work. After getting it back, the brake pedal pulsates due the newly warped rotor. Then the same shop says "hey, guess now you need a brake job." And, some people actually fall for it.

I worked in auto shop in the 70s, when some cars were just starting to use disk brakes. If anybody in our shop was caught using an air-gun on disk-braked wheels, they were fired, on the spot.

My air tools say 90 pounds max.Air wrench has 4 torqe setings.In any case I was taught not to use an air wrench for final tightening.That was over 50 years ago.The little wrenches that come with cars and trucks wont remove tire shop tightened wheels.

I have had sevreal problems with properly torqued lug nuts freezing on over the years. Especilly a problem with aluminum wheels, and steel lugnuts. I've had delers virtually destroy nute trying to remove them. Took the car home and drilled out the studs, then replaced with new studs and nuts. I always lube the threads and shoulders on lug nuts now. Also take my own torque wrench to tire dealer's and torque my own right in front of them. Dealer goes along with my quirks, and I have never had a problem with properly lubed, torqued lugnuts. I live in the rust belt, and Michigan uses lots of salt on the roads.

My father has a 82 F250 1 rear wheel lug nut was a right hand thread, guys at the garage tried like $ell to get it loose before they realized it was right hand thread. They had to "tighten" it so it would come off. Anyone ever see that on those Fords?

I go to the Tire Barn and they use impacts to take tires off, however they hand torque when they tighten. Never had a problem with stripped, gaulded threads or frozen lugs. If I remove lugs at home I may give the threads a squirt of wd40 or a dab of grease. I don't see what anti-seize will hurt. I use anti-seize all the time in spark plugs.

Oil, grease, anti seize OK. Doing this for 50 years. Never broke lug or nut accidentally. Broke 2 spinner wrenches(X) on Chrysler which used to have left hand nut on one side of car and right hand thread on other side. Use long pipe on aluminum wheels to remove. Install normally and follow with torque wrench hundred pounds approx. Dave

Manufacturers and OSHA want lug nuts applied to CLEAN dry threads because that is the only way they can be sure that the proper torque is applied. The studs themselves are not strong enough to transmit the power from the axle to the wheel. If it were not for the friction between the hub and the wheel there would be a lot of wheels falling off. The amount of friction is controlled by how much force is applied by stretching of the stud. The torque specification is given to try to get close to this dimension. Any lubrication will affect how much stretching is achieved at the given torque specification. I have seen some charts where moly greases will achieve the proper stretch at just over half of the specified torque.

I have seen truck lug nuts that were installed to the point where the nut was deformed but yet did not have the proper stretch so that ended up coming loose and breaking. A stud that has been run too loose is more likely to break that one that is too tight. The reason for that is a loose stud can allow movement which continually changes the length of the stud. This movement work hardens the stud until it becomes brittle and finally fails. (This as also a major reason why head bolts/studs fail.)

With all that being said, I don't follow that advice. I always put lube on the threads and back the torque down 10 to 15 percent. I serviced the same fleet of trucks for 35 years and never had a wheel come loose so my method works for me.

Those so called touque sticks DO NOT work as said, they will way over tighten the nuts the same as if none were used, in every case where I have had problems they were used. Take the time where I said in anouther post here I had to burn the nuts off and in the prosses I had to replace both wheels and in anouther case tire only a couple of hundred miles, the shop that had just put them on using the stick they ruined the lug by stripping the threads off trying to change the tire on the road. Auto with steel wheels. I will not let anybody if I am around use those sticks as they are all over tightened. I tighten the nuts the same way that I have ever since the first car I had being a 48 Buick and never any problems with comming loose and then no body knew what a torque wrench was. Every nut ever put on with a stick has been deformed.

I'm going to assume there are differences in quality between different brands.

I do all mine by hand, but if a shop is going to use a air-gun, the chances they ruin someone's car are less if they use a decent torque limiter.

A friend of mine has his own auto repair business and uses Matco torque limiters. We've checked a few and they've been working fine. As good as a torque wrench? No. But, much better then using nothing. I can't comment on the "Torque Stick" brand since I don't know anybody that uses that brand.

Changed 2 tires on my pickup yesterday.I use a drop of oil on the lugs.Wheels were off last summer to put on new brake hoses.I use a forged cross wrench to remove and tighten nuts.No sign of any loose nuts after 9 months.Dont depend on the junk wrench that comes with cars and trucks.

(quoted from post at 10:43:47 04/04/10) OK someone mentioned pyrolosis earlier in the thread. I never felt comfy heating or welding on a tire assembly and now I really have something to back that up.

Watch the video folks. It is a real eye opener.

jt
Pyrolisis video

Click to expand...

YOU GUYS SHOULD WATCH THIS VIDEO, if you haven't already.
I seen this the other day and it's a real eye opener. And it just might save your life one day.

For any of you that has ever used any type of heat around a tire, this is a MUST WATCH!! And you need to watch all of it.