Hay men- can you answer?

jose bagge · Mar 7, 2010

Following an interesting hay discussion on Craig"s list of all places about hay. Can any hay men tell me what percentage of their business is horse hay vs cattle hay? Not asking for your opinion on horse people- that"s been pretty plainly stated here before- just looking for some numbers. Outside of cattle and horses, any other livestock contribute to hay business? alpacas/llamas? Or is it just cattle/ horse/ mulch?

Anonymous-0 · Mar 7, 2010

I'm small change by anyones standards, but ALL my hay is sold to horse people. I'd venture a guess that around here, 90% or more of the cattle folks do their own hay.

M Nut · Mar 7, 2010

In MN, about 70% horse, 30% cattle.

Zachary Hoyt · Mar 7, 2010

Around me in northern NY it's a random mix of horse and cow people, but probably more horse, and people with pet goats. I can understand dairy or meat goats, but I wouldn't want one for a pet.
Zach

ldj · Mar 7, 2010

Been around cattle all my life and always fed them good hay. Haven't been around horses except for a couple years when daughter was teen and wanted horse. He got same hay as cows. Question is, what is horse hay? That horse ate the cows hay and did fine. I never heard of horse hay till a few years ago.

Billy NY · Mar 7, 2010

Farmer I have been helping caters to both dairy and horse customers. We do round bales, mostly for the 1 consistent dairy customer he's got, but the NH 315 comes out for the small squares, usually ordered prior to by horse customers. In the 2 seasons he's had that new JD sileage special .... 582 I think, he's done 2000 round bales, + around 400 straw, which we also bale with the NH 315. There are a few customers with horses that take round bales. We do a few thousand small squares and most sells, we have a few hundred of some nice 1st cut from last summer still in the barn, I buy 2nd cut from him, and we feed it proportionally to the 1st cut, it works out well, horses look great all winter. I enjoy this work, even the small squares, it is a good workout, and well we don't put up big numbers of them, in years past when he was a dairy operation he would do 20,000, he literally wore out 1 IH baler, he told me the chamber walls were getting paper thin. In those days he fed it and sold too.

He's got 1 dedicated barn to keep the rounds and squares, mostly rounds, so they are not weathered, we take em off the field immediately, and get them inside, helps sell em a little easier.

Tom in TN · Mar 7, 2010

ldj,

Here in Middle Tennessee, horse hay has VERY little fescue or clover in it. I'm told by horsey people that the fescue often has a mold growing on it can't be seen with the naked eye but that can be harmful to horses. They don't like clover because of the possiblity of colitis.

I have 45 cows and 4 horses. They all eat the same hay.

Tom in TN

Anonymous-0 · Mar 7, 2010

(quoted from post at 07:24:50 03/07/10) Question is, what is horse hay? That horse ate the cows hay and did fine. I never heard of horse hay till a few years ago.

May touch a nerve or 3 but, some people will bale anything they can cut and call it hay cause it's in a bale. Then b!tch and scream dam horse people when someone don't want the junk. If someone cares what they produce and thinks quality instead of quantity, I think the only difference would be in the cut.

Myself, I want 1st cut a couple weeks later than folks that are making cattle feed/haylage and from higher ground and not rained on. I call that my horse hay and I expect to pay the same for it as the next guy. Only had one person try to raise the price when he found out I had horses.

Reading some magazines and on a British farming forum, I guess some folks are pretty persnickity........

As far as percentages, I'd say around my area it's 70/30, 30 being cattle and 70 all other.

Dave

JR.Fyre · Mar 7, 2010

I am not sure where they are coming up with WORD HORSE HAY, because I have had horse's all my life
and I am 61 years old,and I have baild a lot of hay in my life,many years ago it was said never feed a horse alfalfa,because it was hard on the horse's kidney's,My Uncle as a horse vet, and
a close friend of mine a professor at ISU VET,COLLOGE at Ames Iowa will tell you that is not true, The horse will die from old age before it will die from kidney falure.So as far as, is there a horse hay, NO: Now to answer your question
I sell more grass hay to hores people than alfalfa. Yes the alfa is richer in protean and cost you more to buy, because alfa seed cost more to reseed than grass seed.But all and all I sell about 45% of my hay to horse people.{grass & alfalfa }.
JR.FRYE

bradk · Mar 7, 2010

The only ones that answer our ads are horse people.They want anything from pure alfalfa,pure grass,or mixes,depending on the buyer.We have some that drive 50+ miles to buy from us.

Cattle farmers or dairies are usually set up to supply their own or won't pay the going rate.SE Minnesota

ChrisinMO · Mar 7, 2010

I hope I don't offend anyone, but horsey types tend to not be screwed down too well to the real world. It comes from reading too much and not paying enough attention to what the animals are actually telling you. Not that there aren't important points in selecting good hay, but a lot of people develop opinions about things they don't really understand. Over the years I've learned an awful lot more from the critters than from books.

Of course, if you're trying to sell to horse owners, you've got to pay attention to what is important to them. In addition to which, I have bought hay before that looks good on the outside but inside is junk.

Oh well, there's my hot air for this subject.

Christopher

old · Mar 7, 2010

I would say 90-95% of my hay is feed to horses and the rest to goats no cattle at all. My hay is just a good mix of grasses and clovers and so far every one seems to like it but the few odds ones that don't like the fact I make light square bales but when you have weight limits on how much you can lift you have to adjust things

JR.Fyre · Mar 7, 2010

I agree with OLD:
By the way I am not to say G**D M*****G So I will
do this, Can you speak spanish:BUENOS Dias OLD;
JR.FRYE

DickL · Mar 7, 2010

Horse people probly came to the conclusion that you only fed special hay to their horses by studying the persnickety wild horse herds.
Yall know how persnickety them wild horses are in what they eat.

One neighbor will only feed no rain pure alfalfa hay. Another neighbor will only feed grass hay without alfalfa. Both neighbors horses look healthy.
I feed mine mixed alfalfa and grass hay which is a pasture mix. They are persnickety and pick out the alfalfa to eat and poop on the grass. They will be munching on the grass when I go out to feed but not until the alfalfa is gone. They paw it out the stall door for a soft grass bed when the sun is out.

Guess if I fed pure alfalfa I would have to spend extra money on bedding that wouldn't be near as soft to lay in.

Horse Hay is a silly description made up from unfounded opinions.

old · Mar 7, 2010

Nine no speak Spanish. Gutton Morgan

JR.Fyre · Mar 7, 2010

I can do that to:HOW ARE YOU
JR.FRYE

JR.Fyre · Mar 7, 2010

I can do that to:HOW ARE YOU
JR.FRYE

JayinNY · Mar 7, 2010

There is no such thing as Horse hay, My beefs eat the same hay as the horses, timothy,Red
(or purple) clover, orchard grass, trefoil,and reed canary, mixed. Now horse hay to me, is hay that is not moldy, dusty, rancid or extremely weedy. Which cows or horses can eat. The same thing but different quality.If I find something dusty with the hay I make, which is very rarely, I just give it to the cows.

jose bagge · Mar 7, 2010

I should have clarified- assuming "hay is hay", what percentage of your typical hay sales is to the "horse industry" vs "cattle" or other? In other words, could a "hay farmer" not involved in cattle farming survive on non-horse hay sales?

I agree with most posts here so far- I have 7 World Champions in stall now that eat the same rounds that my neighbors cattle do- he wouldn't feed his animals junk either. Only exception: no fescue to breeding/ bred mares .

Right now, my horses are bypassing hay I roll in to the feild and eating the forsynthia bushes on the fence row- so they can't be all that picky

Anonymous-0 · Mar 7, 2010

(quoted from post at 09:36:39 03/07/10) In other words, could a "hay farmer" not involved in cattle farming survive on non-horse hay sales?

Prolly spend a lot more time haggling over price and settle for less than us nasty horse folks pay. :shock:

paul · Mar 7, 2010

Went to a auction yesterday here in town, wow grass hay brought $2.50 for seedy stuff, and $3.50 for good grass hay. Never heard of those prices locally - grass hay is typically road ditch hay, you hope it brings over $1.00 a bale, and feel good if you can break $2 a bale.

Alfalfa with RFV of 140-150 also brought $3.60 or so. That's a good price, tho at least I've seen those prices before.

Long cold winter, dry summer, musta brought some horse owners out with some money. Actually all the grass was bought by the same fella on the telephone.

I'd be a rich man if I could get $2.50 - 3.50 a bale for grass hay year in & year out. Sell the cattle & have life easy, just sell the hay!

I know some of you have real hay markets, and $4-5 prices are common. Not around here, it's just a waste product.

--->Paul

JayinNY · Mar 7, 2010

Well Id say maybe 50% horse hay, 30% beef hay and 20% mulch hay. I only make 2100 bales a year +- depending on the weather. $3.00 per bale 1st cut feed hay, $1.50 mulch hay.

jose bagge · Mar 7, 2010

yeah, a horse "person" who is male and doesn't act like a cat lady still gets grouped in with the crazies- lucky for these hay guys that they deal with me and not MY clinets!

ChrisinMO · Mar 7, 2010

To directly answer your question this time, we put up our own hay, both on our place and on shares. Any that I think might be extras or that we just don't have roof space for (we make small squares), I'll put out some ads and sell. We sell basically none to 'real' cattle people since we're not putting it up in round bales. Some sells to horse people, but most we sell to people who have a menagerie of animals to feed.

I'll be honest, I'd rather store the hay and feed some extra steers rather than sell it. It seems we usually make more money that way and we still have the manure to use.

Christopher

JayinNY · Mar 7, 2010

Yes thats true the increased nitrogen in the alfalfa does not cause kidney damage in horses.

Tim(nj) · Mar 7, 2010

Most of my business is horses. I do have some stemmier grass and clover hay which goes to a couple of goat farms. Goats actually like chewing on the stems. Only one beef customer now, and he buys round bales. Makes his own hay too, but doesn't have enough land for pasture and enough hay to get through winter.

That being said, my experience with inexperienced horse people, is that the first thing to be blamed when the horse has a problem is the hay, regardless of the quality of said hay.

PY Chung · Mar 7, 2010

I LIKE PEOPLE THAT LOVE HORSES
HAYSAM

RodinNS · Mar 7, 2010

Probably 50% of mine goes directly to the horsey bunch here. Another 40% goes to a local coop. Where it goes from there.... most is probably horse market. Some for various other livestock. Quite a bit for construction.
I also sell probably 10-20% directly into construction uses. I've usually got some trash around for that market, but if I don't thy take good hay too...
The bottom line is that most of the dependable hay sales here are to horse customers.

Some are funny to deal with, some very straightforward. Mostly what they want in terms of 'horse hay' is basically a rather benign hay that doesn't have dust. If it's got a green tinge to it, all the better. It's not what I would call 'good' hay. Most of it has pretty poor feed value... but most don't want anything that's too hot anyway. Most of them feed grain, sometimes quite a lot and if they combine that with top quality hay they start getting a lot of digestive upsets... and since most of them won't stop feeding grain anyway, it's better to use a poorer quality hay.

The short answer to your question tho... if you're selling hay, you need to get a good client base of horse people because there's not much else here that requires hay on a regular basis. Other livestock and construction is simply a spot market on an as needed basis.

Rod

justanothercase · Mar 7, 2010

about 80% of the small bales i sell go to goat farmers. the rest for their cattle. Seem to be nice people and very easy to work with.

TractormanNC · Mar 7, 2010

The horses OWNER is a whole lot more persnicketty about the horses hay than the horse is.

Here in piedmont NC there are a lot of horses and that drives the hay market. I don't see how a cowman could make anything if he were buying hay.

And for paul, please don't take this the wrong way, but if I couldn't get more than $2.00 a bale for orchard grass hay, I wouldn't cut it. My cost of production is more than that.

Anonymous-0 · Mar 7, 2010

Cash only to horse people, and even it may be counterfeit. Oh by the way, could you deliver that every week, 6 bales at a time?

nickg · Mar 7, 2010

I would say that 85% of my square bales I sell are for horse owners. Alot of them dont own tractors big enuff for a round bale and the people I sell 2 dont like letin ther horses have free rain on eatin. The other 15% Are people that just have two or three cows there raisin for 4-h or to have meat in the freezer. I have some that are picky about there hay but are willing to pay more for the better stuff and some that grow there own and take care of it and they have me cut and bale it for them and charge a per bale price and just drop it on the ground for them.

jason, NW Ontario · Mar 7, 2010

Now you've got me curious as to why your production costs are over $2 per bale. How big/new/expensive is your tractor and other equipment for small bales? Do you hire out help, and if so, do they operate other equipment for you?
It just seems strange that your costs are so much higher on an annual basis. I could see a bad repair year getting costs higher, but not every year.
I've only been making hay since '06 with mostly 60's equipment, and our fuel costs are more up here than down there. My estimated cost per bale here is somewhere around $0.95. It'll take a hit this year as we replace a conditioning roller - probably around $1.50 per bale.
Jay

JayinNY · Mar 7, 2010

If its a NH haybine, whats a roller run? Darn NHs seem to have that problem only. I thought I heard about $1000 apiece.

TractormanNC · Mar 7, 2010

Jason,

My baler tractor is a 1965 model 60 hp, baler is fairly new, a 3 yr old NH. I figure a cost of about $60/hr for this. That's about $.20 to $.25 per bale.

No hired help,only family.

Some of my costs
seed, I rotate orchard grass about every 4 to 6 years.
fertilizer, my fertilizer cost is about $64/ac. With a normal yield, that is $.53 to $.64 per bale. You guys do fertilize don't you?
BTW it is a 30 mile trip one way to get fertilizer. Trucks don't run for nothing.
lime and spreading.
I also count an hourly cost for spraying, mowing, teddering, and raking.

bc · Mar 7, 2010

I've heard some of the same stuff from horse people too. Kinda why I can't stand to talk to some or follow any horse boards. They snub their nose when I tell them what mine eat. My 2 blm mustangs and 2 burros eat anything and they don't leave any waste around the feeder like my paints and quarterhorses used to. The feed on a brome pasture and eat brome in big rounds from the same pasture. Sometimes up to 2 year old hay and they eat it like the new stuff. The weeds that grow up in the corral are like candy to them. They keep the weeds down. I let them free feed from the round bale feeders. I also keep a protein tub for them to eat on in case the hay doesn't have enough. During the spring and summer I feed rabon blocks to keep the flies down.

No problems here. The ones who are picky about their feed are also the ones that baby their horses to the point they can't control and ride them very well. Horses are not lap dogs although some people treat them that way. All the great horse bloodlines and genes aren't worth anything when people baby their horses to the point the horses don't respect their owners enough to let them be in conrol.

Cows around here from small operations get a lot of milo stalks anymore for roughage. Feed lots buy sileage. Then use some range cubes and supplements to balance them out.

RodinNS · Mar 7, 2010

When you start doing an honest accounting of costs incuding labor and depreciation you'll probably find that it's costing very close to 2/bale to grow the hay and drop the bales in the field. Then you have to haul them and store them...

Rod

ChrisinMO · Mar 7, 2010

That's why I couldn't help myself and bought so many round bales of orchard grass/clover hay last fall. They were being sold for a little more than half of what it would cost me to produce a similar weight of small squares.

Christopher

Steve Okla · Mar 8, 2010

About 80% of the hay I put up goes to horse people. Is it horse hay, I don't know I tell them to look at it and make up there own mind. I bale real clean bermuda and will have had one horse guy pass on the hay because it wasn't midland 99 variety. Said that was all horses could eat. Go figure

Hay men- can you answer?

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