I have an IH 966 that just recently developed a problem of water in the oil. The dealer told me that it basically needed an overhaul and would be in the $6000 range. Since I only paid $10K for the tractor and a WL-40 loader 7 years ago, it seemed like too much. For my purposes I also don"t need a tractor this big. The dealer says they have n IH 656 with a Westendorff TA-30 loader that I can have for my tractor and $3500. For some reason, that seems like a lot to me. The 966 still starts and runs, it has a cab, tires are good, a few leaks here and there, the clutch is relatively new (2-3 years). My question(s) are What do you think is a fair price for the 966 as it sits now and what is a fair price for the IH656? Please feel free to ask any questions you need in order to answer me. Thanks in advance for your help
- Thread starter Jimhug
- Start date
I'm just swinging in the dark here. I haven't worked on an IH for several years now,but every one that I have worked on had dry sleeves. Did the dealer say how they thought needing an overhaul would cause water in the oil? My first thought on the problem would be that the oil cooler was leaking. Next,but not nearly as likely would be a head gasket,but I'd be checking the oil cooler before I spent a dime or a minutes time on anything else.
The price on the overhaul stikes me as about 2000 too high. As to the 656, 7500 should be big money to buy it outright so it amounts to they are giving you little more than salvage price for yours. Personally, I'd rather put money into a tractor I know than one I dont. Some people who are better versed on IH tractors than I am should be able to comment further but I'd think that an inframe overhaul would address the water and oil problem as long as the bottom end isnt ruined from running too long that way.
OK- the dealer told me the coller wasn't the problem. It sound like something with the sleeves. I do need to pin them down more I guess. I wasn't sure on the o/h price but it seemed high to me also and the difference on the trade in also seemed high. One reason I posted here was I know there are people much better versed on this than I am. .
mazemeister
Member
the 66 series and newer (300-400 series engines) have wet sleeves. could be sleeves/o-rings, oil cooler, head gasket, don"t know what else.
the 361/407 have dry sleeves, not sure what others do.
i agree with KY- i"d rather fix a tractor i know than buy someone else"s problems. also, the 966 is a lot more tractor than the 656 besides size. dual pto, hydraulic brakes, hydraulic ta, 8F/4R trans vs. 5F/1R. that said, there"s a lot of very happy 656 owners out there, even 40 years after they were new.
the 361/407 have dry sleeves, not sure what others do.
i agree with KY- i"d rather fix a tractor i know than buy someone else"s problems. also, the 966 is a lot more tractor than the 656 besides size. dual pto, hydraulic brakes, hydraulic ta, 8F/4R trans vs. 5F/1R. that said, there"s a lot of very happy 656 owners out there, even 40 years after they were new.
Allan in NE
Well-known Member
Jim,
He's $2K too darned high on the overhaul and he's trying to bend you clear over backwards on the trade.
I'd find a good honest shop and have the 9 repaired. Should run in somewhere around $4K.
That old 656 can't hold a candle to the newer 966 and you'd be pouring good money after bad.
Allan
He's $2K too darned high on the overhaul and he's trying to bend you clear over backwards on the trade.
I'd find a good honest shop and have the 9 repaired. Should run in somewhere around $4K.
That old 656 can't hold a candle to the newer 966 and you'd be pouring good money after bad.
Allan
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
The 414,436 snf 466 are wet sleeved and usually but not always it's the oring at the bottom of the sleeve that will develop a leak.I personally have had an oil cooler go out on a 466 but the oil always goes where the least pressure is and it will always fill the cooling system with oil.$6000.is high for an overhaul but weigh how much a warrenty is worth considering you could get a back yard mechanic to do the overhaul for a third less with no warrenty.An average 966 like yours will be worth a very min of 6000 with the loader so i would say fixing it would be a better investment then taking a chance on the 656.keep in mind someone traded it in for a reason.>Randy in ND
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
I haven't worked on a IH diesel since before I joined the AF back in 85. But the last 966 I worked on had wet sleeves. Before I took it in for that $6K overhaul or trade if for a 656 I would pull that oil cooler off and check or have it checked out. If it's the O-Rings on the sleeves, that wouldn't be too big of a job.
To check out the O-Rings/Sleeves to ensure they are good, drop the oil pan, clean it the best you can and look for coolant drips/leaks. By pressurizing it would also be a good way to check it, but usually can/will see the leaking by just letting it sit.
This isn't going to get your tractor fixed and back on the job quickly, but could keep you from spending more than you want.
Personally; I would try to get the 966 fixed up before trading it off for just a bit more than salvage. Especially for a 656. You have a lot more and lot better tractor and know the history of it.
To check out the O-Rings/Sleeves to ensure they are good, drop the oil pan, clean it the best you can and look for coolant drips/leaks. By pressurizing it would also be a good way to check it, but usually can/will see the leaking by just letting it sit.
This isn't going to get your tractor fixed and back on the job quickly, but could keep you from spending more than you want.
Personally; I would try to get the 966 fixed up before trading it off for just a bit more than salvage. Especially for a 656. You have a lot more and lot better tractor and know the history of it.
In that case,an inframe with wet sleeves is a simple do it yourself job. Just guessing $1800 should get pistons and sleeves,bearings and gaskets. Might as well take the head in and get the valves ground while it's off. I wouldn't even hesitate to have it torn down YESTERDAY.
justanothercase
Member
I would hang on to that 966, like everyone else said you know what youve got in that tractor. Their prices do seem pretty steep. If you traded you could be looking at the same thing in the 656 in a year you just dont know. personally id prefer the heavier 966 for loader work. just my 2cents.
have a good one
have a good one
I rebuild my 1086 which has the same motor only turboed for about 2300 (including turnubg crank)with doing all the work myself. If you really want to get rid of it 600 would be a good place to start. I personnaly would rather have the 966 than the 656 due to power and hyd brakes and ta. It would be like trading a 1 ton for a half ton. Still a truck but not for the same power
the tractor vet
Well-known Member
Well that is just a WEEEEEeeeeeeee bit high. On that engine a inframe is not that big of a deal and with some standard hand tools and a torque wrench and a place out of the weather and just a it of heat at this time of the year you could do it your self with a I T manual for the most part . as long as the crank is good and does not need turned the only two things that need set out to have done is the head and the rods and of course to get beer . A couple days of your time and maybe a total of 2500 bucks should cover a inframe .
the tractor vet
Well-known Member
Allen if you pay more then 3 for a inframe your getting ripped
steve in wi
Member
If tell us where you live ,i'am sure somebody could direct you too someone that could do it cheaper.. Or close
Owen Aaland
Well-known Member
The most common reason for coolant entering the crankcase is due to cavitation on the sleeves allowing a leak either through a hole in the sleeve or enough erosion around the top O-ring groove. If the cavitation extends around the O-ring groove the block may also be damaged and need a repair sleeve to be usable. The sleeve has three O-rings on the bottom but the top one is the one that does the sealing. The other two just help locate the cylinder in the block.
The oil cooler can also fail but almost all cases the oil will be pushed into the cooling system. With the engine running the oil pressure is greater that the coolant pressure so the oil enters the cooling system. With the engine shut off the pressure in the radiator is greater than the lubrication system so coolant is pushed into the crankcase. If the cooling system is not able to build pressure you may never get coolant in the crankcase.
If the dealer was going to install a rebuilt engine, by the time you added a clutch and water pump, replaced the hoses, went through the starter and alternator and other miscellaneous items, the $6000 could well be a realistic number.
The oil cooler can also fail but almost all cases the oil will be pushed into the cooling system. With the engine running the oil pressure is greater that the coolant pressure so the oil enters the cooling system. With the engine shut off the pressure in the radiator is greater than the lubrication system so coolant is pushed into the crankcase. If the cooling system is not able to build pressure you may never get coolant in the crankcase.
If the dealer was going to install a rebuilt engine, by the time you added a clutch and water pump, replaced the hoses, went through the starter and alternator and other miscellaneous items, the $6000 could well be a realistic number.
formerly ny bill
Well-known Member
my 966 just got new sleeves, pistons, etc by a travelling mechanic (done at my shop) because of cavitation. the bill was about $2700. i agree that the dealer is ripping you off. btw, my 966 now has a water filter on it.
BANDITFARMER
Well-known Member
I had a 766 that had the same problem, Change the O rings in the oil cooler would be the first thing to try. I thing they were about $.50 each. If you have never changed them this might be the problem and a cheep fix. A 966 with loader and $3500 for a 656 and loader is no deal to me. I think he figures its the O rings to and wants to make a wad off you. Just my opinion Bandit
They told me they checked the cooler and that wasn't the problem. They were then going to drop the pan and he said they would know then. I am going to assume right now that it is the cavitation problem but I will ask him tomorrow. I agree the 3500 plus my tractor seemed steep to me .
I'd suggest you fix the 9... You could buy the other one and have the same problem tomorrow. I figure it this way... if you're talking trade at the same place that told you that you need 6K in engine work, they just deducted that from the sale price of the 966, then some for margin... so they aren't giving you much allowance. I don't blame them either.
As far as the 6K for the rebuild... that may be high. It doesn't strike me as terribly high when I think in terms of some Ford engines. Also consider that if you want a firm price they're likely to quote you a worst case scneraio. Quite possibly it could be done cheaper if you want to pay labor (hourly) and parts as it happens...
I know when people ask me for prices on work, I quote an hourly rate for whatever time it takes... and if you don't want to trust me and insist on a flat rate, I'll give you a flat rate. It's what I expect in hours for the worst case, PLUS some in case I figuered low... and I don't really care at that point whether I get the work or not. I'm not one to gamble at my own expense when working for someone else...
Rod
As far as the 6K for the rebuild... that may be high. It doesn't strike me as terribly high when I think in terms of some Ford engines. Also consider that if you want a firm price they're likely to quote you a worst case scneraio. Quite possibly it could be done cheaper if you want to pay labor (hourly) and parts as it happens...
I know when people ask me for prices on work, I quote an hourly rate for whatever time it takes... and if you don't want to trust me and insist on a flat rate, I'll give you a flat rate. It's what I expect in hours for the worst case, PLUS some in case I figuered low... and I don't really care at that point whether I get the work or not. I'm not one to gamble at my own expense when working for someone else...
Rod
Doug in Illinois
Member
I agree with keeping the 966. I did a quick internet search for overhaul kits for it, 966 not coming up but 1066 is. Same engine, except the 1066 is turbo. DT414 inframe kit is $1051.00. Full overhaul kit is $1158.00 That is from just the first site that showed up.
Even assuming $150 freight for the kit, you are at just over $1300 in parts. No way is labor and misc.going to be another 4K. DOUG
Even assuming $150 freight for the kit, you are at just over $1300 in parts. No way is labor and misc.going to be another 4K. DOUG
jimhug, As Allen an most of the other have said , And I will echo too!!! KEEP Your 966! That OH shoule be done in the 3 to 4 range! also more importantly is you have had it for 7 yrs allready you know it, the trans and rear end is sound and solid!!! that 656 may very well be another ticking time bomb, Talk to Allen, Tractor Vet,who have been down this road earlier than you. Allen took an old 966 that had been stored away in a barn for many yrs and took his back to better than new condition.
I have had my 966 since about spring of 92, about 8 yrs ago... My TA crapped out and needed replacing also did a new clutch,PP,and throw-out too, had a major leak on lower Rockshaft seals they too were replaced The major bonus to this work was the shop guys were able to inspect my tractor entire rear end, trans and compoents. No broken teeth on any gears, all bearing were visually inspected and everything look like the day it was put together. Bottom line is my tractor rear end is solid as I will bet yours is too or you would have mentioned above.
For you, a in frame and you are good to go, The only draw back is all the little annoying things you will want to fix since the tractor is already in the shop now. Front end parts, front pivot bushings, tie rod ends, new seat, those torsion rubber things, Paint,,Paint?
I wouldn't trade my 966 for a lesser tractor. My thoughts. Hope this helps!
Later,
John A.
I have had my 966 since about spring of 92, about 8 yrs ago... My TA crapped out and needed replacing also did a new clutch,PP,and throw-out too, had a major leak on lower Rockshaft seals they too were replaced The major bonus to this work was the shop guys were able to inspect my tractor entire rear end, trans and compoents. No broken teeth on any gears, all bearing were visually inspected and everything look like the day it was put together. Bottom line is my tractor rear end is solid as I will bet yours is too or you would have mentioned above.
For you, a in frame and you are good to go, The only draw back is all the little annoying things you will want to fix since the tractor is already in the shop now. Front end parts, front pivot bushings, tie rod ends, new seat, those torsion rubber things, Paint,,Paint?
I wouldn't trade my 966 for a lesser tractor. My thoughts. Hope this helps!
Later,
John A.
Similar threads
We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.
Copyright © 1997-2024 Yesterday's Tractor Co.
All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.
Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters
Website Accessibility Policy