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Positive Ground

M

MSS3020

Well-known Member
Ive been trouble shooting a problem with my lights. FOUND the problem over the weekend. (had a wire rubbing on the frame and shorting out) But brought to mind this question. I have a 3020 gas...

1) What was the purpose for Positive ground on these tractors?

It has a cig.lighter socket. But when I hooked up some 12 volt lights etc. I have to change the wires around to make them work. THen change back to work on my truck..

Just curious.
 
(quoted from post at 11:08:34 01/26/10) Ive been trouble shooting a problem with my lights. FOUND the problem over the weekend. (had a wire rubbing on the frame and shorting out) But brought to mind this question. I have a 3020 gas...

1) What was the purpose for Positive ground on these tractors?

It has a cig.lighter socket. But when I hooked up some 12 volt lights etc. I have to change the wires around to make them work. THen change back to work on my truck..

Just curious.
Click to expand...
esigner's choice. Lights are not typically polarity sensitive, so don't see need for wiring change???
 
I'm no electrical engineer,but it's my understanding that a positive ground system is less subject to corrosion for some reason.
 
"old fashioned" incandescent lights don't care about polarity and should work either positive or negative ground.

However, if you are using LED lights, LED stands for "Light Emitting Diode" and a diode IS polarity sensitive. An LED light would have the internal wiring connected for modern negative ground vehicles, so you would have to reverse the leads to work on positive ground.
 
Some of it had to do with electrical theory which over the years they change off and on. Had to do with the way they believe zap-u-trons flowed and then some one changed that theory so they also changed how they did the ground. As for you lights fill in the blank there not the common run of the mill filament type lights are they???????????
 
This has been discussed numerous times on here. I read some tech literature yearsssssss ago that Ford and Chrysler in the early auto years were of the opinion there was less corrosion between frame members IF the battery was positive grounded. GM did NOT necessarily share that. However, later on the industry became standardized at Neg ground. Many early 6 volt tractors were Pos ground but switched to Neg ground when they went to 12 volts. HOWEVER ALLLLLLLL Two Cylinder Deeres were Pos ground regardless if 6 or 12 volt.

At our Naval facility years ago we used cathodic protection which passed small DC current through our buried metallic pipes to reduce corrosion.

Incandescent lamps or other resistive type loads can operate at EITHER Pos or Neg Ground while polarity sensitive elec ignition modules and alternators and LED lights are indeed Polarity sensitive.

Typical DC tractor starting motors operate and still turn the same direction REGARDLESS of Polarity

A typical tractor DC Genny can charge at EITHER Polarity and work witihin the charging system correctly once Polarized

I hope the other fine gents can add to this, nuff said for now, hope this helps

John T
 
from what i was told by a caterpillar instructor was that the 6 volt used pos. grnd. to reduce sleeve pitting from the coolant.keeping your cooling system pressuized also plays a big part in it by keeping those bubbles tiny that attack the sleeve.but ya its a physics deal which i am not good at.
 
What you do is pick the story that you like.

Here are a couple of takes: ( not ALL factual, just part)

1) Model T Ford had it right with Negative ground, then Ford "fixed" it with the Model A (Pos gnd), then Ford "fixed" it again in 1956 (back to Neg Gnd).

2) Ford was almost ready to go into production with the Model A & discovered that spark was positive...investigation revealed that the coil was manufactured wrong! Henry, being the frugal man that he was, said," take too much time & money to scrap/re-manufacturer all those coils...just reverse the battery cables". Finally fixed that mistake in 1956.

3) Had it wrong with Model T, fixed it with Model A, then made it wrong again in 1956.

4) Had it right with the Model T, messed it up with the Model A, couldn't admit mistake until all the guilty players were dead & then fixed it in 1956.

5) When lightening strikes, it is an electrical discharge from a Negative cloud to a Positive Earth, so if it was good enough for God, then it was good enough for machines. Of course the main current is in the return discharge from Earth to cloud…but the Earth is still the Positive end of it.

And FINALLY,

5) It doesn't make any difference, like left/right hand threads on lug nuts, as long as user knows how it is set up, either work just fine. It is just a convention necessary to facilitate communication.

As to it being a GM vs Ford thing, you can see GMC Positive ground for many years while Chevy, BOP were all Negative ground.

grounds_by_maker_sml.jpg
 
The question of polarity was debated from the beginning of electric starters until some time in the 1960s when SAE put out a new standard that required negative ground. Search out posts on this topic and you'll find where I posted the number of that SAE standard. I'm still wanting to look up more history and I have some older SAE standards books but some have been packed up and moved already. Some haven't appeared while packing yet.

I think the corrosion arguments came from the corrosion experiences with water pipes and DC trolley systems. Turns out that no matter how big a grounded conductor you use, so long as you have contacts to earth the large cross section of earth, though not a great conductor, will carry a significant portion of the power (something called Carson's theory). In a DC trolley feed, then depending polarity of the trolley wire and distance from the power plant a metal water pipe will either be eroded or will have metal added. One polarity is better for pipes near the power plant but worse for pipes away. So the trolley runs with the polarity that gets the fewest water company gripes.

Fact is, on a vehicle, either polarity works for starting and ignition, and in the early solid state days radios came with a way to set the polarity to match the power source. Reversed polarity usually means destruction of the solid state device. Often with striking visual results (a cloud of smoke)! Alternators are among those very polarity sensitive products and for convenience is probably why the SAE demanded negative ground, long about 1968.

Deere fuel gauges in the '20 era are polarity sensitive, why I don't know.

Gerald J.
 
The choice of using one polarity or the other depended much on what theories engineers had the most faith in. The Electron Theory or the Hole Theory. Both are just that, still theories and never been proven.

Positive ground is still used in certain applications, but not in the main-stream consumer market. More in marine and military applications.

Years back, some autos used ignition systems that used BOTH polarites. They used "polarity changers" to alternatre between neg and pos ground. That was an early effort to preserve ignition points life.
 
"Years back, some autos used ignition systems that used BOTH polarites. They used "polarity changers" to alternatre between neg and pos ground. That was an early effort to preserve ignition points life. "

Talking to a fellow on another site who said he had a 20's Chevrolet truck with a device that reversed ignition polarity every time he stepped on the starter switch.
 
(quoted from post at 14:06:58 01/26/10) The choice of using one polarity or the other depended much on what theories engineers had the most faith in. The Electron Theory or the Hole Theory. Both are just that, still theories and never been proven.

Positive ground is still used in certain applications, but not in the main-stream consumer market. More in marine and military applications.

Years back, some autos used ignition systems that used BOTH polarites. They used "polarity changers" to alternatre between neg and pos ground. That was an early effort to preserve ignition points life.
Click to expand...
http://www.sciencenewsblog.com/blog/225081
 
This has been discussed to death many times before, and the answer is always the same: nobody really knows.

Electrical engineers today always "think" in terms that current travels from positive to negative. But in the past it was common to teach that current flows from negative to positive. This affects the way electrical circuits are designed. In a previous life, I worked with US Marine technicians on a certain weapons system. The US military school teach that current flows from negative to positive, and I found it very difficult to explain to the marines how a certain very simple diode logic circuit worked. I told them to ignore for a moment what they'd been taught and to assume current flows positive to negative. They immediately were able to comprehend the circuit, because the schematic made sense only when you used positive-to-negative current convention.
 
I think my John Deere 60 battery is hooked up + to starter and igntion - to frame of tractor is this right ? I guess I don't now how to make sure its right.
 
Yo JMOR, Cool, VERY INTERESYING.......... You must be a "Googler" ??? Regardless if we could see it or not I ALWAYS already considered current as the flow of electrons (amps as coulombs per second) and wasnt concerend the holes/vacancies (which remained because electrons were knocked out of orbit) were in the opposite direction

Good conductors such as copper have readily available free electrons in their outer orbits. As far as Pos grnd versus Neg grnd, if one considers "electron current" (which flows in one direction) as the flow of electrons and "hole current" as the opposite direction flow of the holes/vacancies that remain when an electron is knocked out of its orbit (like a copper electron) I dont see how Pos Ground is good or better then Neg ground as in BOTH the holes/vacancies are goin one way while the electrons are goin the other way IE How does it matter why Pos or Neg ground should be used or is better WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS????????

I dont see why REGARDLESS if youre looking at the way the holes/vacancies flow or the way the electrons flow (which is opposite from hole flow) Pos or Neg ground should be used or how hole or electron theory MAKES ANY DIFFERENCE

Gotta love sparky chat, your thoughts please

John T
 
Holes are just lack of electrons, but electrons in motion still carry the current. Holes weren't really discussed until solid state electronics as far as I can remember. But I'm only 67.

Holes do move in the opposite direction from electrons, and electrons move from negative to positive. O'le Ben Franklin didn't know about electrons and he picked positive and negative some 250 years ago, wrong.

Holes are the predominant current in a metal lattice that's short on electrons to fill the outer orbits. Electrons are the predominant current in a metal lattice that has a surplus of electrons.

Calculations work for both holes (positive particles assumed by Franklin) and electrons, just can be confusing to those with inadequate backgrounds trying to understand electron tubes and semiconductors.

Ohms law and other electrical circuit laws apply to either selected current flow and any location for the ground in a circuit, if any.

Tractors run with positive or negative ground so long as all the accessories are set for the same polarity when they are polarity sensitive like and alternator, a radio, a planter monitor, or a JD gas gauge. Coils have a preferred polarity for better spark at the plug, not hard to adjust the coil primary connections for that.

Gerald J.
 
Good explanation my friend, thats pretty well how I see it as posted above to JMOR. When a free electron is knocked out of its orbit (as in a good conductor with spare free electrons in outer orbits) the hole/vacancy thus created is moving in the opposite direction and I dont see how Pos or Neg ground has much to do different other then the hole/vacancies and electrons are moving in different directions (still each opposite from each other) if you reverse polarity.

IE I dont see choosing hole flow or electron flow "theories" as having to do with whether to use Pos or Neg ground as posted somewhere above

Funnnnnnnnn chat, thanks

John T
 
General motors for 15 years that I know of had ungrounded 110volt control wiring in machines and coveyor panels and other factory applications. Part of the power distri bution were what was called "ground lamps." These were miniature transformer and pilot lamps connected from each hot wire(both of them)to building ground. When both were lit, no problem. If one went out, that line was shorted to ground and other line brightened up. No problem unless you got ground on other line. Then fuses would blow and emergency repairs were made. Some time later panels would come into factory with one side of line already grounded and "ground lights" eliminated. This was in Detroit but probably used other places, too. GM had their own codes and standards. One I recall was no conduit smaller than half inch. Another was only one erickson coupling in a conduit run. Sealtite or flexible conduit was limited to 3 feet long. All 440volt equipment had to have magnetic starter. Lots more but I can't remember. John T might tell you some of this. Dave
 
Historically, the conflicting opinions derived from Paul Dirac's "Hole Theory ca. 1930s" and " the Electron Theory" ca. 1890s" had much to do with the choice of positive or negative ground in early automobiles and tractors. That is . . . if we can believe what is written in historical accounts. I'm well read on the subject, but can't say I was there at the time, or knew any of the people actually involved. The general mindset, from what I've read specifically on the subject, the Hole theory showed more benefits towards postive ground and better metal corroisoin protection, and the Electron towards the negative ground. Many schools that taught electric theory favored one or the other. Yes some schools were biased then, just as many are today. I don't see it as being much different that the modern arguments between Ford and Chevy, BetaMax versus VHS, Blue Ray versus HD DVD, etc.

Paul Diracs Hole theory dealt with the absence of electrons. It was modified in the 1930s via the "Quantum Field Theory." Enrico Fermi also added to it, specifically in regard to the electron effect on metals.

So, I'm wondering what it is you are saying? None of this exists in historical accounts? You don't agree there was ever such disagreement? I can provide hundreds of source citations and some from primary documents.

This information certainly is discussed in the historical record when it comes to electric theory and engineering. And, I haven't found anything else near as strong as it relates to the choice of ground systems during those early times. Have you?
 
The Hole Theory was current in the 1930s. And, it was modified to recognize the presence of Postitrons . . . not just holes.
 
Heres the down side to a positive ground..... Lets say you bump into a fence or metal object like a gaurd rail. It would promptly short the battery out leaving the car dead..... Also if a negative ground car bumped onto your car it would short both your cars out -- sparks would fly.... Also lets say some joker doesnt like you - all he would have to do is lean a metal object like a pipe on to your car while touching the ground and it would drain your battery dead..... I think there actualy were a few cars before WW2 that were positive ground but they all changed - to negative shortly after the war ended....
 
1/2 the cars and trucks made in 1940 were positive ground.All 6 v tractors I worked on were positive ground.Your statement is full of holes.
 
(quoted from post at 10:18:18 01/26/10) What you do is pick the story that you like.

Here are a couple of takes: ( not ALL factual, just part)

1) Model T Ford had it right with Negative ground, then Ford "fixed" it with the Model A (Pos gnd), then Ford "fixed" it again in 1956 (back to Neg Gnd).

2) Ford was almost ready to go into production with the Model A & discovered that spark was positive...investigation revealed that the coil was manufactured wrong! Henry, being the frugal man that he was, said," take too much time & money to scrap/re-manufacturer all those coils...just reverse the battery cables". Finally fixed that mistake in 1956.

3) Had it wrong with Model T, fixed it with Model A, then made it wrong again in 1956.

4) Had it right with the Model T, messed it up with the Model A, couldn't admit mistake until all the guilty players were dead & then fixed it in 1956.

5) When lightening strikes, it is an electrical discharge from a Negative cloud to a Positive Earth, so if it was good enough for God, then it was good enough for machines. Of course the main current is in the return discharge from Earth to cloud…but the Earth is still the Positive end of it.

And FINALLY,

5) It doesn't make any difference, like left/right hand threads on lug nuts, as long as user knows how it is set up, either work just fine. It is just a convention necessary to facilitate communication.

As to it being a GM vs Ford thing, you can see GMC Positive ground for many years while Chevy, BOP were all Negative ground.

grounds_by_maker_sml.jpg
Click to expand...

So how would a guy know if it was not in the list?Just asking the list answered the question on my uncles 48 chev Fleetmaster.Thanks for posting it! It is negative ground
 
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