- Thread starter Ron Sa
- Start date
Ron Anderson
Member
Look at all the older tractors, trucks and older cars that used them. Even the John Deere 4020 used them. Can't be to bad.
Ken Macfarlane
Well-known Member
Without the filter mesh they aren't very good. Dust can get carried
through in a bubble.
Also for your info, as modern paper filters get dirty, they get
better. The plugging of the paper makes the holes smaller so they
filter even smaller particles.
Of course once it is completely plugged the engine won't run, but
its very clean air right before that!
through in a bubble.
Also for your info, as modern paper filters get dirty, they get
better. The plugging of the paper makes the holes smaller so they
filter even smaller particles.
Of course once it is completely plugged the engine won't run, but
its very clean air right before that!
love that Ken! If I stop breathing, my lungs won't get messed up by all the polluted air! Cool!
:lol:
P.S. I do understand......my MF has a vacuum sensor behind air cleaner, so that when filter gets so dirty (filtering really well) that the engine sucks hard enough to trip the switch, a light comes on alerting op to dirty/clogged filter.
Here is what I wrote on the other website that I mentioned.
It is a myth that oil bath air cleaners are highly effective in removing FINE dust from air—the type of dust that we see hanging in the air and gets sucked into the engine’s inlet. Oil bath air cleaners are about as effective as seining minnows using hog wire fence. How do I explain this without 10 pages of technical formulas and explaniations why fine dust cannot travel rapidly from the center of an air bubble to the spherical surface of an air bubble even under several Gs of inertia force? The air bubble traveling thru oil only contacts the oil at the bubble’s surface. Fine dust away from the surface of the bubble escapes capture in the oil resevoir which amounts to about 90% of the fine dust within the bubble escaping capture. So what does the wire mesh accompolish? Very little. Air traveling past the wire mesh’s surfaces creates a boundary layer which has a similiar affect to having a glove on your hand. When passing thru the wire mesh, only a small percentage of the air’s volume gets used as boundary layer. Most of the dust-filled air passes thru the short length of wire mesh with out contacting any oil on the wire mesh’s surface. If the length of wire mesh was say 20 feet instead of a few inches, a lot of the dust would get trapped. Inside the engine, most of the dust in the air exits thru the exhaust but some of the dust contacts the oil on the cylinder wall. This dust acts like a lapping compound that wears out the sleeve and rings. It eventually shows up as crud inside the engine or as the black color of the oil.
It is a myth that oil bath air cleaners are highly effective in removing FINE dust from air—the type of dust that we see hanging in the air and gets sucked into the engine’s inlet. Oil bath air cleaners are about as effective as seining minnows using hog wire fence. How do I explain this without 10 pages of technical formulas and explaniations why fine dust cannot travel rapidly from the center of an air bubble to the spherical surface of an air bubble even under several Gs of inertia force? The air bubble traveling thru oil only contacts the oil at the bubble’s surface. Fine dust away from the surface of the bubble escapes capture in the oil resevoir which amounts to about 90% of the fine dust within the bubble escaping capture. So what does the wire mesh accompolish? Very little. Air traveling past the wire mesh’s surfaces creates a boundary layer which has a similiar affect to having a glove on your hand. When passing thru the wire mesh, only a small percentage of the air’s volume gets used as boundary layer. Most of the dust-filled air passes thru the short length of wire mesh with out contacting any oil on the wire mesh’s surface. If the length of wire mesh was say 20 feet instead of a few inches, a lot of the dust would get trapped. Inside the engine, most of the dust in the air exits thru the exhaust but some of the dust contacts the oil on the cylinder wall. This dust acts like a lapping compound that wears out the sleeve and rings. It eventually shows up as crud inside the engine or as the black color of the oil.
our boundary layer is good for smooth laminar flow, not for the turbulent flow in, around, thru the mesh material. I will/would be much more convinced with a particle analysis comparing before & after air content. Would be neat to see that for pleated paper, K&N, oil bath w/mesh.....done without funding by a filter manufacturer.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
There's millions of machines with oil bath air cleaners that have lasted for thousands of hours. The Kubota in my skid steer has a dry air filter but the oil goes black almost immediately after an oil change. This is common with a lot of diesel engines but not all of them. Dave
Brian G. NY
Well-known Member
All I know is that back in '75 Ford offered an optional oil bath type air cleaner on their big trucks for "extreme" conditions. Are things different today; maybe?
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Oil bath aircleaners were used because they were better than nothing. And they would receive some service in the field instead of zero service in the field with a dry element.
There is no doubt the dry element removes more dirt with a smaller/lighter filter.
There is no doubt the dry element removes more dirt with a smaller/lighter filter.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
Actually I WOULD like to see your "10 pages of technical formulas and explaniations" [sic]. There are a lot of reasons why manufacturers have switched to paper filters, but the inability of oil bath filters to remove fine dust isn't one.
I'd also like to see your "10 pages...". I see a couple potential bad assumptions in your statement. First, the air does not bubble through the oil. It passes over the top of the oil where the heavy stuff falls out, and then passes through the mesh which is covered with oil mist sucked up off the oil in the bottom of the filter. Bubbles have nothing to do with how it works.
Also, as someone else pointed out, air flow through the mesh would be turbulent flow, not laminar flow.
As a point of comparison, what do you think a K&N filter is? It's nothing more than a mesh covered with oil. If a K&N can remove fine particles with air passing through a single thin layer of mesh, how come air passing through inches of oiled mesh in an oil bath filter won't have even more particles removed?
I did a quick search & didn't find any definitive comparisons of filter performance. I'd suspect that manufacturing costs probably had a lot more to do with the change to disposable filters than filter performance did. I also saw something about emissions...apparently the oil mist from an oil bath air cleaner increases emissions.
Do you have any data to support your assertions?
Thanks,
Keith
Also, as someone else pointed out, air flow through the mesh would be turbulent flow, not laminar flow.
As a point of comparison, what do you think a K&N filter is? It's nothing more than a mesh covered with oil. If a K&N can remove fine particles with air passing through a single thin layer of mesh, how come air passing through inches of oiled mesh in an oil bath filter won't have even more particles removed?
I did a quick search & didn't find any definitive comparisons of filter performance. I'd suspect that manufacturing costs probably had a lot more to do with the change to disposable filters than filter performance did. I also saw something about emissions...apparently the oil mist from an oil bath air cleaner increases emissions.
Do you have any data to support your assertions?
Thanks,
Keith
In the days of oil bath filters your car or truck engine was do for a rebuild at 100000. miles and needed to be bored out too. Now I buy cars with 100000. and don t expect them to use oil. BTW diesel motors oil is black by the first 10 hours, my CAT is black when you check the oil during an oil change.
Dean Barker
Member
Google Duramax Air Filter Test. Quite a few filters were tested by independent study. No oil bath filters were tested, however. Quite an eye opener.
olgentdc
Well-known Member
My 75 Ford
grain truck is a OIL BATHER ,,, That has got to be better than dry filters ./
grain truck is a OIL BATHER ,,, That has got to be better than dry filters ./
Mark, I will make you a trade. I turn 71 this month and am starting to wondering how to dispose of my college course text books that I kept. One course dealt with how air flow interacts with solid objects varying from large airplanes to fine dust particles. It has 764 pages of formulas, explanations, and other related stuff. My kids will probably eventually burn the book so I will trade the book to you in turn for valid test results that you have that backs up your understandings and convictions regarding the effectiveness of oil bath air cleaners. All I remember from the course is some fundamentals so I am not claiming to have expertise. I did not pursue aeronautical engineering but went the mechanical route. In theory and based on fundamentals, the oil bath air cleaner will capture chunks of dirt but will let a lot of the fine stuff pass thru. Wishing you a happy new year.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
Hi Ron,
Sorry, but no deal. I already have a stack of textbooks I no longer understand, and if I got any new ones my wife would send the ones I have to Salvation Army.
I don't recall seeing any studies that said one way or another whether paper filters catch more dust than oil bath filters. But I do know that dry filters have their own problems. The most significant is that it's nearly impossible to service a dry filter without getting some dirt in the intake. That's not a problem with oil bath filters, because the dirt is all encapsulated in oil, but it was a big problem when dry filters were introduced on heavy equipment. That's why most tractors with dry filters have service indicators: the less often you service the filter the less dirt you get in the engine.
Sorry, but no deal. I already have a stack of textbooks I no longer understand, and if I got any new ones my wife would send the ones I have to Salvation Army.
I don't recall seeing any studies that said one way or another whether paper filters catch more dust than oil bath filters. But I do know that dry filters have their own problems. The most significant is that it's nearly impossible to service a dry filter without getting some dirt in the intake. That's not a problem with oil bath filters, because the dirt is all encapsulated in oil, but it was a big problem when dry filters were introduced on heavy equipment. That's why most tractors with dry filters have service indicators: the less often you service the filter the less dirt you get in the engine.
Keith, You make some good points. Regarding the bubbles, I am aware that in most designs the air does not bubble thru the oil reservoir but another web site claims that is does. My point was that even if that were the case, a large portion of the fine dust stays within the bubble not getting close to the oil. A particle of fine dust moves thru the air about as fast as 140 weight gear oil pours in cold temperatures. (This forum seems to not take long replies so will try to reply in several chunks. Here goes)
Regarding laminar and turbulent flow, we probably agree that laminar is laminar but there are degrees of turbulent flow. If 100 psi air thru a blow nozzle is high turbulence then air passing thru an oil bath cleaner is probably on the low side of turbulence. For an partial analogy, a football runningback usually encounters turbulence from the defense but the football dodges and turn with the runningback as the obstacles are encountered. The fine dust particle dodges and turns carried by the air. The air is not tackled but occasionally the ball gets snatched.
Ron, you can beat this horse from now on, but all the discussion is academic, theorizing & speculation without supporting facts (i.e., test results similar to those in the link that someone posted for Duramax filter comparisons). Yeah, it fills the time on a cold winter day, but that is about it. Kinda like the ethanol argument on another thread where Jon claims that he gets better mileage with ethanol than with pure gasoline........the physics doesn't support it & the argument can go on forever, BUT then real world testing by not only the EPA, but nearly every automobile magazine published, rears it's ugly head & low & behold, they all show lower gas mileage with ethanol! Surprise, surprise as Gomer used to say. Gee, I guess that's why they use higher flow capacity injectors or lengthen the injector squirt time of ethanol capable vehicles.
Maybe it is not generally known that air does not slide across surfaces but rather there is what is known as a thin boundary layer of air that can be visualized as being momentarily stuck to or momentarily detained by the surfaces of the wire mesh. Perhaps an analogy for the boundary layer would be like a large group of pranksters getting chased out of a fenced watermelon patch by a 12 gage shotgun. All clear the fence in a single leap carrying a melon but one prankster gets snagged by the barbed wire and is momentarily caught and detained just long enough to tear his pants and hide loose and then continues on. In the process, his melon gets smashed. The smashed melon represents the oil grabbing a particle of dust. The other melons escape capture.
Yup, cabin fever needs some activity to make it more tollerable. I like VALID test data too but coffee shop claims usually have an unknown fudge factor applied. The laws of Physics are factual and will not tolerate violations. However, the Physics laws are often not understood and therefore will not be accepted as factual. That is natural. Thanks to all for their feedback.
understand the physics of your laminar flow position & another excellent example of it is the water flow in a river.......not much movement near the back & progressicely faster until reaching a maximum at mid river.
The application to the problem at hand is where I have a bit of a problem. To use you football or melon examples, in the air cleaner of a foot of mesh dripping oil, there are many "defensive lines" and/or "fences"...each and everyone snagging/grabbing and generating more turbulence.
I don't know that oil or paper is better than the other. Maybe we need an oil pre-filter and a paper post filter, then we could argue which is a better order oil followed by paper or paper followed by oil?
Similar threads
We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.
Copyright © 1997-2024 Yesterday's Tractor Co.
All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.
Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters
Website Accessibility Policy