A post I read recently reminded me of a question friends and I batted around back in the day. Are narrow front end tractors really tippier than wide front ends? I know they seem and feel like they should be but the tractor pivots on the center of that WFE at least as easily as it does on the entire NFE. What do you guys think?
- Thread starter Lowly
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gene bender
Well-known Member
I came from an era when there were no wide fronts and never heard about upsetting tractors. Now you hear all the time about upsets cause they had a big bale on the front going down the road ar something else. Its all in DRIVING with common sense. Big thing is tractors are heavier and go faster. Also now we seem to have to mow in ditches where we shouldnt be in the first place.
omahagreg
Well-known Member
I have never driven a narrow front tractor-so can't say for sure. Dad and Grandpa always had wide front because of the gumbo soil where they farmed. Figured, when wet, the gumbo would just stick between the narrow tires, making it real hard to push thru. With the wide front they would just be pushing the tire. Greg
Ive never seen any difference. The key is to have the common sence to stay away from situations that will tip any tractor. Narrow front ends allowed you to cultivate corn and other tall crops. Where I grew up in northern N.J.I never saw a wide front end except for small fords. Now that no one cultivates wide is the way to go.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
yes they are, with wf the pivot point is at the bottom of the tractor , with nf it's at ground level, I only mow a few ditches but the narrow wants to slide down the grade easier than a wf as I have used both
i started driving tractors as a kid when narrow fronts were about the only kind around . i always liked them, that being said all the tractors on the farm, were used as intended in the fields just low rolling hills nothing steep or dangerous , never a problem,they can make sharper turns, i have never tryed to take one into a deep ditch or across a steep sidehill, common sence tells me that would not be a good idea its not a good idea on a wide front either the problem seems to be when people dont use common sence or city folks get rich, buy acerage then buy a tractor with nobody to teach them the safe operating limits of a farm tractor, and start doing things like draging a log from a chain hooked above the rear axle, or trying to mow a ditchbank with the tractor at a crazy angle they roll over, kill the driver, and the safty police start screaming about how unsafe tractors are and want to make rops mamdatory on everything instead of lookat at what the operator wasa doing with the tractor before the accident nearly all tractor accidents are operater error , lack of training or missusing the machine
rustyfarmall
Well-known Member
Approximately 70% of the weight of ANY tractor is on the REAR wheels. Wide front or narrow front really makes very little difference in stability as long as you don't interfere with that weight ratio balance.
Way back when i was a kid a neighbor had a Farmall "M" with a loader on it,he tipped it over on a flat area with the loader up so he could see easier,It wasnt all the way up but quite a ways.They put a wide front end on it and he could have a bucket load of dirt or manure and not tip over.
rustyfarmall
Well-known Member
Exactly. If the tractor wants to slide sideways down the slope, you've got NO business being there in the first place. Use an herbicide to control the weeds, and just let the grass grow.
ScottyHOMeY
Well-known Member
It gets batted around here every now and then, though it's been a while.
I'm of the mind that any tractor can be tipped. The center of gravity is typically at least closer to the rear wheels which are wider in any event and, on anything but offsets like the Cub and Farmall A-s and 1xx's, is somewhere very near the center line of the tractor. All that is required to tip one over is for that point (the center of gravity) to cross outside an imaginary three- or four-sided box rising from a figure defined by the wheelbase.
The only tractors I believe are any tipper than another are the offsets, as their center of gravity is much closer to the left wheels than the right, so they will tip over to the left easier. (That could be from operating on too much of a sidehill, or from centripedal force of too fast of a hard right turn with the right brake locked -- as an acquaintance learned the hard way while showing off on a Cub) The common solution to that problem was to add weight to the right side to move the center of gravity in that direction, away from the left. That's why you'll see so many As, for example, with a stamped steel wheel on the left side, hard up against the transmission, and a much heavier cast steel wheel on the right, out at the end of the diff shaft housing. That extra weight on the right, along with the weight of the operator on that side, moves the center of gravity further to the right of the drive line, and away from the imaginary plane between the two left wheels, which would address the sidehill problem, and gives that extra weight some leverage to address the force issues of a hard right turn at too high a speed.
On narrow fronts, my imaginary box is triangular so, yes, it can be assumed that the center of gravity reahes that imaginary tipping point sooner than it would on the rectangle of a wide front. But on wide fronts there's another factor at work. There is typically a limit to how much the front will pivot. Once that limit is reached, the tractor is putting more of it's wieght on the side to which it's tipping, moving the center of gravity closer to that side, and closer to the side of the rectangular box.
In the end, plenty of both have been rolled, and I'd chalk most of them up to the operator, not the design.
I'm of the mind that any tractor can be tipped. The center of gravity is typically at least closer to the rear wheels which are wider in any event and, on anything but offsets like the Cub and Farmall A-s and 1xx's, is somewhere very near the center line of the tractor. All that is required to tip one over is for that point (the center of gravity) to cross outside an imaginary three- or four-sided box rising from a figure defined by the wheelbase.
The only tractors I believe are any tipper than another are the offsets, as their center of gravity is much closer to the left wheels than the right, so they will tip over to the left easier. (That could be from operating on too much of a sidehill, or from centripedal force of too fast of a hard right turn with the right brake locked -- as an acquaintance learned the hard way while showing off on a Cub) The common solution to that problem was to add weight to the right side to move the center of gravity in that direction, away from the left. That's why you'll see so many As, for example, with a stamped steel wheel on the left side, hard up against the transmission, and a much heavier cast steel wheel on the right, out at the end of the diff shaft housing. That extra weight on the right, along with the weight of the operator on that side, moves the center of gravity further to the right of the drive line, and away from the imaginary plane between the two left wheels, which would address the sidehill problem, and gives that extra weight some leverage to address the force issues of a hard right turn at too high a speed.
On narrow fronts, my imaginary box is triangular so, yes, it can be assumed that the center of gravity reahes that imaginary tipping point sooner than it would on the rectangle of a wide front. But on wide fronts there's another factor at work. There is typically a limit to how much the front will pivot. Once that limit is reached, the tractor is putting more of it's wieght on the side to which it's tipping, moving the center of gravity closer to that side, and closer to the side of the rectangular box.
In the end, plenty of both have been rolled, and I'd chalk most of them up to the operator, not the design.
fixerupper
Well-known Member
Yes a tractor is more tippy with a narrow front. You see a lot more wide fronts in the hill country than you do on the flatlands because of his.
I put a wide front on my narrow front loader tractor and it really changed the way it moved. It changed the sideways movements from a kind of a pendulum type movement to more of a flat sideways movement. It just felt a lot more stable.
A while back I was carrying a long tree limb really high with the loader (I know, it's a no-no) and the left rear wheel came up.I got out of the seat and was ready to bail over the side but the wide front end hit the stop and the tractor sat there with one rear wheel off the ground. With a narrow front she would have gone over and probably sooner.
A narrow front sure is handy in tight spots, though.Jim
I put a wide front on my narrow front loader tractor and it really changed the way it moved. It changed the sideways movements from a kind of a pendulum type movement to more of a flat sideways movement. It just felt a lot more stable.
A while back I was carrying a long tree limb really high with the loader (I know, it's a no-no) and the left rear wheel came up.I got out of the seat and was ready to bail over the side but the wide front end hit the stop and the tractor sat there with one rear wheel off the ground. With a narrow front she would have gone over and probably sooner.
A narrow front sure is handy in tight spots, though.Jim
ScottyHOMeY
Well-known Member
There is a distinction to be made in loader situations.
A loader will move the center of gravity forward in any case so, yes the COG will be closer to the triangular "tipping" boundary, which narrows as it gets closer to the front of a NFE tractor. Raise the load higher and you've also raised the COG, meaning it will move outside that boundary even more quickly. With a loader of something like a front spear, I'll acknowledge that it's easier to tip a narrow front.
But for ordinary draft work there is so little difference, if any, that the critical factor remains (Who said it down below?) the nut behind the wheel.
A loader will move the center of gravity forward in any case so, yes the COG will be closer to the triangular "tipping" boundary, which narrows as it gets closer to the front of a NFE tractor. Raise the load higher and you've also raised the COG, meaning it will move outside that boundary even more quickly. With a loader of something like a front spear, I'll acknowledge that it's easier to tip a narrow front.
But for ordinary draft work there is so little difference, if any, that the critical factor remains (Who said it down below?) the nut behind the wheel.
olgentdc
Well-known Member
I agree with you Rick and appreciate scottys comments as well {on wide fronts there's another factor at work. There is typically a limit to how much the front will pivot. Once that limit is reached, the tractor is putting more of it's wieght on the side to which it's tipping, moving the center of gravity closer to that side, and closer to the side of the rectangular box.}
In the end, plenty of both have been rolled, and I'd chalk most of them up to the operator, not the design... ............... I wish I still had my 1st tractor that my wife and I bought for our 1st small farm JD M these were offset wide front ... And Yeah Boy ! in right conditions that front azle will walk right under the front end and could easily flop it over ,,, another Escapade happened with a loaded wood trailer attached going along the side hill ridge across the steady giving way to steep pasture ,, The Ground had been froze serveral inches down , The nice Morning SUN hit the 1st half inch of mud slick grass and had just started to THAW that morning , MAKING IT SLICK AS CAT GUT !,..The little M started moving faster sideways than forward in Low gear , I flipped kill switch! , and it kept scooting ,ONLY TIME TO DATE that I ever BAILED OFF a tractor in fear of looming danger,. Everything slid sideways some 100 ft Slow Motion like down to the steepest part , it took a minute and I was able to grab My Saw from the uphill side of trailer , then AlL gained speed and nearly had the tractor on its side ( Trailer hitch was holding It nearly jack knifed ) when it came to rest in the little bottom .. Now we were in a better area to get ou than on top of the ridge ..LOL . . Took a Deep Breath , hopped on the silly thing and was able to back up , wiggle the steering and get the front end back down to where all was comfortable and deemed unharmed ,then cross the creek and Come out the much safer moderate slope to get up to the house.... 30 years AGO
In the end, plenty of both have been rolled, and I'd chalk most of them up to the operator, not the design... ............... I wish I still had my 1st tractor that my wife and I bought for our 1st small farm JD M these were offset wide front ... And Yeah Boy ! in right conditions that front azle will walk right under the front end and could easily flop it over ,,, another Escapade happened with a loaded wood trailer attached going along the side hill ridge across the steady giving way to steep pasture ,, The Ground had been froze serveral inches down , The nice Morning SUN hit the 1st half inch of mud slick grass and had just started to THAW that morning , MAKING IT SLICK AS CAT GUT !,..The little M started moving faster sideways than forward in Low gear , I flipped kill switch! , and it kept scooting ,ONLY TIME TO DATE that I ever BAILED OFF a tractor in fear of looming danger,. Everything slid sideways some 100 ft Slow Motion like down to the steepest part , it took a minute and I was able to grab My Saw from the uphill side of trailer , then AlL gained speed and nearly had the tractor on its side ( Trailer hitch was holding It nearly jack knifed ) when it came to rest in the little bottom .. Now we were in a better area to get ou than on top of the ridge ..LOL . . Took a Deep Breath , hopped on the silly thing and was able to back up , wiggle the steering and get the front end back down to where all was comfortable and deemed unharmed ,then cross the creek and Come out the much safer moderate slope to get up to the house.... 30 years AGO
They are a bit less stable. Potholes and such can affect them more.
As to 'tippy' I think they are only slightly more so; not enough to really matter. As you say the wide front pivots in the center.
I grew up with dad's narrow front Farmall H with a loader.
I bought a wide front compact New Holland 1720 a few years ago.
Dad has 400lbs of wheel weights, with a bracket we put on the back with another 500lbs, on the longer frame of that tractor. Hauling out manure from the barn, loading sand from the sand pit, that narrow front tractor is STABLE. Never really scared me. When the rear gets light it spins out, and the rear doesn't often get light to start with.
The compact tractor with wide front is a real short wheelbase. It came with no weight on the rear. The front wheel assist means it keeps moving no matter what. This thing scared the heck out of me the first week I had it - and I was just pulling a wagon downhill, no load in the loader!
I think there are bigger factors than narrow front when it comes to tractor stability. Wheelbase & proper ballisting come to mind.
I know the compact tractor crowd at tractorbynet is scared of narrow fronts, but in the real world, I have news for them.
There are other factors much more important than wide or narrow front.
--->Paul
As to 'tippy' I think they are only slightly more so; not enough to really matter. As you say the wide front pivots in the center.
I grew up with dad's narrow front Farmall H with a loader.
I bought a wide front compact New Holland 1720 a few years ago.
Dad has 400lbs of wheel weights, with a bracket we put on the back with another 500lbs, on the longer frame of that tractor. Hauling out manure from the barn, loading sand from the sand pit, that narrow front tractor is STABLE. Never really scared me. When the rear gets light it spins out, and the rear doesn't often get light to start with.
The compact tractor with wide front is a real short wheelbase. It came with no weight on the rear. The front wheel assist means it keeps moving no matter what. This thing scared the heck out of me the first week I had it - and I was just pulling a wagon downhill, no load in the loader!
I think there are bigger factors than narrow front when it comes to tractor stability. Wheelbase & proper ballisting come to mind.
I know the compact tractor crowd at tractorbynet is scared of narrow fronts, but in the real world, I have news for them.
There are other factors much more important than wide or narrow front.--->Paul
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
That urge to jump gets a lot of people in trouble because the driver isn't always going to be fast enough or have the ability to get over fenders, wind breaks, loader frames, etc.
The way to get that tractor settled down is to drop the loader. Hit that down lever!
The way to get that tractor settled down is to drop the loader. Hit that down lever!
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
On any tractor increasing rear wheel spacing improves tipping stability. Adding wheel weights also improves tipping stability whether liquid in the tires or cast iron weights on the wheels.
Some loader manuals insist on both weights and wide wheel stances for safety.
Gerald J.
Some loader manuals insist on both weights and wide wheel stances for safety.
Gerald J.
old
Well-known Member
- Location
- Camdenton Missouri
Not by much. Most of the ones that get tipped over are caused by the loose nut behind the wheel not using them correctly. Both do and will flip over pretty easy and things like loader etc add to the flip over and people not doing things the way they should. Sort of like in this pictures a guy was brush hogging along the side of a hill the tractor slde side ways and into the tree if it where no for the tree the tractor would have rolled over and yes it had an ORC on the PTO
Ken Macfarlane
Well-known Member
Yes they are, the front roll centre is at the ground. On a wfe the roll centre is at the pivot and the ground at the rear tire. Your centre of gravity goes past that line via a hill or getting bumped up you tip over.
On a wfe, once you tip the roll centre becomes the pivot and the rear tire touching the ground until you hit the stops on the axle. Then the roll centre will be the two tires still touching the ground.
The wfe is significantly harder to tip.
On a wfe, once you tip the roll centre becomes the pivot and the rear tire touching the ground until you hit the stops on the axle. Then the roll centre will be the two tires still touching the ground.
The wfe is significantly harder to tip.
BushogPapa
Well-known Member
You have to be careful and not compare "Apples to Oranges", too..
Different makes have higher COG than others..
An AC WD-45 sets much lower than - say an "A" JD..but the "A" has a deceptively lower COG because, the Engine is set lower in the frame..
Was Very popular in hill-country...
An International would be different, as a Case again would be..
If Ballasted correctly and operated in a proper manner, a NF is not a problem..But..as with anything else in Farming..let your gard down and "stuff happens"...!!
Ron..
Ohio state university did a test on tractor roll overs and didn't find much difference.The wide front tractor that hindge in the center offer no resistance to roll over untill the tractor frame hits the axle then it's to late.The narrow fronts actually offer more resistance since both tires are fixed in place and over the center of
garavity.Some of the tested tractors actually tipped easier than the narrow front.
garavity.Some of the tested tractors actually tipped easier than the narrow front.
old
Well-known Member
- Location
- Camdenton Missouri
Nope farmer wanna be from NY city and that is the truth. Guy was born and raised in the bronks he was total not do drive it along the hill side but he did it any way and went to the hospital because he didn't listen to what he was told
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Yes, no and maybe............
Brian Jasper co. Ia
Well-known Member
All I can say is I don't feel safe mowing the ditch with a NF D17, but I can mow it with a WFE CA.
For what it's worth. David.....................
http://www.abe.psu.edu/extension/factsheets/e/E34.pdf
http://www.abe.psu.edu/extension/factsheets/e/E34.pdf
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
It looks like the ground may have been frozen. Dave
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Only if you wedge that wide front But then the higher center of gravity comes to play.. I was raised in steep hill country. Dad had a set of wedges on long bolts to hold them in place so the ftont axle could not move.
On the really steep grades he used a little Oliver HG with wide tracks. I don't think you could make that thing trun over.
If your have a grade and are not sure...get a utility model or stay off the grade.
On the really steep grades he used a little Oliver HG with wide tracks. I don't think you could make that thing trun over.
If your have a grade and are not sure...get a utility model or stay off the grade.
scot in pa
Member
The 400 had a narrow front when we got it, the 300 always had one, and the B, of course. The only time I noticed any difference was with the B with the left side uphill. It didn't take but a 3/4 inch sapling to lift the tire off the ground, but the good thing about it is it stopped when that happened.
old
Well-known Member
- Location
- Camdenton Missouri
Nope ground was warm but covered with leaves so yes it was almost like being on ice as thick as those oak leaves get here in the Ozarks. Took 2 days 4 or 5 com-a-longs and about a 100 foot of chain to get it off the tree and down the hill with out it flipping over. Only thing that stopped it from flipping was the tree between the tire and tranny
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