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- Thread starter Peaches
- Start date
Dad has a ClimateMaster Heat Pump in his basement. He loves it. 5 wells drilled in the ground with water loops, 5 ton heat pump in the basement. He was told a 3.5 or 4 ton should be more than sufficient, but Dad wanted 5 ton.
He says it cost less than $500 to heat and cool the house all year long. We had wood heat and propane before. And Dad says he wouldn't want to change to anything else!
Now one thing you will notice about it is that if your basement is damp at all--that problem will go away on its own. The basement is dryer now than it has ever been!
He says it cost less than $500 to heat and cool the house all year long. We had wood heat and propane before. And Dad says he wouldn't want to change to anything else!
Now one thing you will notice about it is that if your basement is damp at all--that problem will go away on its own. The basement is dryer now than it has ever been!
One of my friends put a geothermal system in at his new house...
12 wells about 200 feet deep, so the installation was fairly pricey, but his house is HUGE (and with 10' ceilings), and now his heating & cooling costs are extremely low.
I want to say on the order of $35/month (for the heating & cooling portion - in other words, not counting lighting, ovens, etc...) or so - and that is mainly just for the circulation pumps and fan motors that circulate the air & water.
I know right at the beginning he fought some startup issues, but has been extremely happy with it now for the last few years...
Howard
As a contractor, I am in the process of putting my 3rd system in on new houses. The first we used the wells. One for each ton of the system. That is the most spendy way to go, but is still probably the best. On the next one, we went to the slinky system. Again, one loop for each ton. That is what we will use on this one we are building now. We hired the digging for the trench and put the loops in our selves. Total cost of the 3 loops was right at $1000. That included the piping, trenching, and the manifold and circulation pump. If you use the slinky lines, make sure the soil is in good contact with the tubes. Try to keep lumps out. Some guys put water in the trenches to settle it in good. That's what the guy wants on his system this time. The government is giving a 30% tax credit for a system. Our state also gives a property tax reduction. Local electric company will loan up to $10,000 for the cost at 5% interest. They also give a rate reduction for electricity used, about half. You will need two electric panels and a seperate meter to get that. They are saying about a 5 year payback. We are using the 2 stage pumps which are a little bit spendier but run cheaper. It runs so quiet you hardly can hear it. About like standing next to a refrigerator. Try to get the manifold inside the house rather that buried outside. If you need to shut down one loop you can from inside but if it's buried your out of luck. Make sure you insulate the lines in the house real good as they will sweat in the winter. We also hook it into the water heater to get free hot water.
I am in IL. I am having a dealer/installer coming out next week to go over everything with me. For a 3,400 sq ft home, I am estimating the cost at $18,000-$20,000. I was considering a Central Boiler last year, but the quote I was given on that was near $15,000. I currently have propane and after last years prices, I think it is time to check other alternatives.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
I have a cousin who has had a geothermal system from a shallow 30' well with the discharge water running into a ditch. It was installed about 20 years ago, and I believe that he had a new compressor installed this year. His house is a remodeled one hundred plus year old house, and he is happy with the system.
I seriously considered a geothermal system when I built my country home about 4 years ago. I have a ten acre pond about 100 feet from the house, so the loop could be sunk in the pond rather than buried. The best estimate I got was about a $10,000 premium over two air to air heat pumps. As best I could tell, the additional cost was mostly additional profit for the installer.
I opted for the air to air heat pumps and am very glad that I did. I am heating/cooling 2200 sq. ft. and guess that the heating/cooling part of my electric bill (not counting the flat connection fee, lighting, water heating etc.) is less than $500 per year. (The house has 2X6 walls, good insulation, good windows, etc.) I'm sure that geothermal would use somewhat less electricity, but the savings would not have paid for the additional cost over the life of the equipment.
I seriously considered a geothermal system when I built my country home about 4 years ago. I have a ten acre pond about 100 feet from the house, so the loop could be sunk in the pond rather than buried. The best estimate I got was about a $10,000 premium over two air to air heat pumps. As best I could tell, the additional cost was mostly additional profit for the installer.
I opted for the air to air heat pumps and am very glad that I did. I am heating/cooling 2200 sq. ft. and guess that the heating/cooling part of my electric bill (not counting the flat connection fee, lighting, water heating etc.) is less than $500 per year. (The house has 2X6 walls, good insulation, good windows, etc.) I'm sure that geothermal would use somewhat less electricity, but the savings would not have paid for the additional cost over the life of the equipment.
We just had a Daikin duct-free system installed in our house which is an air to air heat exchange system for both cooling and heating. they are supposed to be good to -25Celcius. We had the top of the line model with two heads, one in the basement and one on the main floor. Our house is 1100 sq ft up and about 900 in the basement. We had it installed two days before we left on a two week holiday and prior to leaving had used the cooling mode for two days with great results. We now have the heat mode on in the basement and are more than satisfied as the basement is now warm and dry. We are keeping the former system of electric base boards in place just in case we hit some colder weather than normal. We Also have a wood heater as back up in case of power failure. We live in the southern interior of BC where we certainly can get a few days of -25C. So a lot of it depends on where you live. this system cost $8000.00 of which we will get about $2500 back in govt rebates.
farmerjohn
Well-known Member
Go for it, I have geothermal with 4 ground loops, you will love your heat bills. Use a closed loop system if you can, in other words circulating the water instead of taking in and discharging it.
Hi Peaches,
At $20k, your getting ripped big time.
A 4-ton HP, Geothermal, split system is about $3k contractors cost, not installed. You will need two units for 3400sft.
Why two units? There cheaper than buying a single 8-ton. If one unit breaks down, you can get by until the other unit is fixed.
Use a 1500gal septic tank buried well below the 100yr frost line level, about 4ft deeper. This will handle both 4-ton units. Costs savings are tremendous VS deep wells or loop lines installs.
Set the tank in 6" of sand, top, bottom and sides with a soaker hose in several places. Turn the soaker hose on once per month during the summer for 24hrs. This makes a better heat sink than without thus equals more efficiency.
T_Bone<---45yrs ASHREA HVAC Design Engineer-Retired
At $20k, your getting ripped big time.
A 4-ton HP, Geothermal, split system is about $3k contractors cost, not installed. You will need two units for 3400sft.
Why two units? There cheaper than buying a single 8-ton. If one unit breaks down, you can get by until the other unit is fixed.
Use a 1500gal septic tank buried well below the 100yr frost line level, about 4ft deeper. This will handle both 4-ton units. Costs savings are tremendous VS deep wells or loop lines installs.
Set the tank in 6" of sand, top, bottom and sides with a soaker hose in several places. Turn the soaker hose on once per month during the summer for 24hrs. This makes a better heat sink than without thus equals more efficiency.
T_Bone<---45yrs ASHREA HVAC Design Engineer-Retired
bob featherstone
Member
t-bone you sure seem to know this stuff
with the septic tank method as opposed to loops does the coolant / water just return to the top of the tank & sucked in to the house from the bottom ? just trying to understand the concept
i know a couple people here in ontario that have had the ground loop type installed & was 23,00 before gov't rebates this sounds a lot more economical
bob
with the septic tank method as opposed to loops does the coolant / water just return to the top of the tank & sucked in to the house from the bottom ? just trying to understand the concept
i know a couple people here in ontario that have had the ground loop type installed & was 23,00 before gov't rebates this sounds a lot more economical
bob
Dad bought his in 2003. He fired the local contractor because he just shot his mouth off and did nothing for 8 weeks. So Dad just went and talked to an HVAC guy until he convinced him to sell just the heat pump unit. It weighs about 330lbs. Dad did all his own ductwork and remodeling - it is a forced-air heating system (not much of a problem if you had a gas furnace before though.) Dad paid about $6,000 for the unit, and about $11,000 to have the wells drilled in the back yard and the water lines sunk (though the well driller also did a water well for us at the same time.)
The bigger unit capacity was on two fronts: 1) Dad's selection for the old house was a furnace that the contractor said was more than twice what was needed (so this is a pattern with Dad) and 2) he liked the higher efficiency of the "scroll" compressors over conventional compressors, and I think he had to go 5ton at the time to get it. (His is from the Ultra-Classic line.) Also his house has rock-wool insulation in it-it's okay, but his folks didn't keep it very warm with the electric baseboard heaters they had. Oh, and he passed on the Emergency Heat electric heater option in the top.
He also has it hooked up take the heat it is moving and put it back into a hot water heater for even greater efficiency. His has two compressors for better efficiency and reliability. You only use one compressor for AC in summer, but it takes both compressors for heat after it gets below 30'F outside in winter.
He uses regular windshield washer fluid (the $2/gal antifreeze at walmart) in the loops. The water recirculating pumps are piggybacked (that made no sense to me at the time) and run 24/7. The only time it didn't keep up with heating the house it was -15'F for about 5 days straight the winter of 2004.
The bigger unit capacity was on two fronts: 1) Dad's selection for the old house was a furnace that the contractor said was more than twice what was needed (so this is a pattern with Dad) and 2) he liked the higher efficiency of the "scroll" compressors over conventional compressors, and I think he had to go 5ton at the time to get it. (His is from the Ultra-Classic line.) Also his house has rock-wool insulation in it-it's okay, but his folks didn't keep it very warm with the electric baseboard heaters they had. Oh, and he passed on the Emergency Heat electric heater option in the top.
He also has it hooked up take the heat it is moving and put it back into a hot water heater for even greater efficiency. His has two compressors for better efficiency and reliability. You only use one compressor for AC in summer, but it takes both compressors for heat after it gets below 30'F outside in winter.
He uses regular windshield washer fluid (the $2/gal antifreeze at walmart) in the loops. The water recirculating pumps are piggybacked (that made no sense to me at the time) and run 24/7. The only time it didn't keep up with heating the house it was -15'F for about 5 days straight the winter of 2004.
Tbone I really like your posts, you seem very knowledgeable in everything I've read that you've written.
But this is what I remember with our 5-ton unit. Before the water loops were installed Dad plumbed it into the basement cistern and that water got very warm indeed! I'm not sure how much that cistern holds but I'm thinking probably 2000 gallons wouldn't fill it.
How well the heat would transfer out of a septic tank into the ground around it I don't know.
But this is what I remember with our 5-ton unit. Before the water loops were installed Dad plumbed it into the basement cistern and that water got very warm indeed! I'm not sure how much that cistern holds but I'm thinking probably 2000 gallons wouldn't fill it.
How well the heat would transfer out of a septic tank into the ground around it I don't know.
Thank you T_Bone, It"s nice to know ahead of time when the price is too high and getting ripped off. I was planning on asking how much a person could do themselves to keep the price down. Now, you have given me something else to consider. If I have any questions after talking with the dealer next week, would you mind if I would contact you? Email is open. Also, Bob Featherstone"s post has a question. What is the answer? I am taking notes from every posting and I do appreciate everyone" reply.
Hi all,
I'll answer all here as not to repeat myself.
All calculations are preformed in pounds, or the weight of the substance used, not gallons.
Very important too understand this law: The 2nd law of thermodynamics states;
"Heat flows from a warmer source too a cooler source."
Using the 2nd law, we can diagnose or engineer any design where there is a fluid flow.
Air is considered a "fluid". Air weighs .00075lbs/cft @ 70ºf/50%r.h.
"Cold" only occurs at absolute zero, minus 460ºf. Any temperature above absolute zero, is considered to be a "lack of heat" by refrigeration engineers. This concept is a very important mindset.
Earth temperature at 4ft below the 100yr frost level, is typical 50ºf average thru out the USA. After digging your heat sink lines/tanks, immediately measure in several places the medium height wall temperature 6" inside the earth, using a digital thermometer, about $20. Average the readings taken.
Use a new 1500gal septic tank buried well below the 100yr frost line level, about 4ft deeper. This will handle both 4-ton units.
Costs savings are tremendous VS deep wells or loop lines installs. 1500gal concrete septic tanks cost $1500 delivered in my area. Order a lid size large enough to install the heat exchanger(s). Patch/seal lids/holes with 3parts sand, one part portland mix.
Set the tank in 6" of sand, top, bottom and sides with a soaker hose in several places. Turn the soaker hose on once per month during the summer for 24hrs. This makes a better heat sink than without thus equals more efficiency for only a few more bucks.
After the tank is set, immediately fill with fresh water so the tank won't float incase it rains. Add several pounds of baking soda in each chamber to keep the PH neutral so it doesn't attack your heat exchanger metals.
Flat plate liquid heat exchangers are the most efficient. 316-SS is the least acid resistive for 30yrs use and also the most expensive cost.
A large truck radiator(s), acid boil flush, with NO external paint, works really well for a liquid/liquid heat exchanger as they stack easy. Used AC evaporator coils are another great heat exchanger source.
A typical flat plate heat exchanger has a 5ºf delta. Another words there's a 5º difference in the amount of heat transfered from liquid#1 to liquid#2. That is very efficient.
A typical liquid refrigerant evaporator has a 10ºf delta. This is a liquid/air heat exchanger therefor liquid/liquid delta's are unknown.
A typical truck radiator is an air/liquid heat exchanger with a 18ºf delta.
HP's are very efficient at 45ºf. They will heat down too 0ºf ambient "if" sized correctly for the amount of sft, but the efficiency dramatically drops with temperature.
A Geothermal HP is designed too keep the ambient temperature at 45ºf by using ground source heat.
The best known refrigeration compressor is a scroll compressor. The 2nd best is a piston compressor. Radial compressors are just junk, period.
The best refrigeration units will contain a scroll compressor with a high and low pressure manual reset safety control. Cu coils are the most efficient and have the longest life. All other gadgets, are just that. Copeland scroll compressors would be my number one choice. There is no number two for 20yrs of service.
At $6k for a 4-ton split system HP installed, will cover labor and profit for a contractor. For two units, about $11,500, less the geothermal system and you should have contractors beating down your door for the work.
Do not install your own refrigeration system nor size your required geothermal system. Your unit efficiency will greatly suffer. The best thing you can do too protect yourself is make the contractor sign a guaranteed efficiency contract. Never pay money upfront.
T_Bone<---45yrs ASHREA HVAC Design Engineer, Indoor Air Quality Engineer, Energy Management Engineer, AWS-CWI, Retired
I'll answer all here as not to repeat myself.
All calculations are preformed in pounds, or the weight of the substance used, not gallons.
Very important too understand this law: The 2nd law of thermodynamics states;
"Heat flows from a warmer source too a cooler source."
Using the 2nd law, we can diagnose or engineer any design where there is a fluid flow.
Air is considered a "fluid". Air weighs .00075lbs/cft @ 70ºf/50%r.h.
"Cold" only occurs at absolute zero, minus 460ºf. Any temperature above absolute zero, is considered to be a "lack of heat" by refrigeration engineers. This concept is a very important mindset.
Earth temperature at 4ft below the 100yr frost level, is typical 50ºf average thru out the USA. After digging your heat sink lines/tanks, immediately measure in several places the medium height wall temperature 6" inside the earth, using a digital thermometer, about $20. Average the readings taken.
Use a new 1500gal septic tank buried well below the 100yr frost line level, about 4ft deeper. This will handle both 4-ton units.
Costs savings are tremendous VS deep wells or loop lines installs. 1500gal concrete septic tanks cost $1500 delivered in my area. Order a lid size large enough to install the heat exchanger(s). Patch/seal lids/holes with 3parts sand, one part portland mix.
Set the tank in 6" of sand, top, bottom and sides with a soaker hose in several places. Turn the soaker hose on once per month during the summer for 24hrs. This makes a better heat sink than without thus equals more efficiency for only a few more bucks.
After the tank is set, immediately fill with fresh water so the tank won't float incase it rains. Add several pounds of baking soda in each chamber to keep the PH neutral so it doesn't attack your heat exchanger metals.
Flat plate liquid heat exchangers are the most efficient. 316-SS is the least acid resistive for 30yrs use and also the most expensive cost.
A large truck radiator(s), acid boil flush, with NO external paint, works really well for a liquid/liquid heat exchanger as they stack easy. Used AC evaporator coils are another great heat exchanger source.
A typical flat plate heat exchanger has a 5ºf delta. Another words there's a 5º difference in the amount of heat transfered from liquid#1 to liquid#2. That is very efficient.
A typical liquid refrigerant evaporator has a 10ºf delta. This is a liquid/air heat exchanger therefor liquid/liquid delta's are unknown.
A typical truck radiator is an air/liquid heat exchanger with a 18ºf delta.
HP's are very efficient at 45ºf. They will heat down too 0ºf ambient "if" sized correctly for the amount of sft, but the efficiency dramatically drops with temperature.
A Geothermal HP is designed too keep the ambient temperature at 45ºf by using ground source heat.
The best known refrigeration compressor is a scroll compressor. The 2nd best is a piston compressor. Radial compressors are just junk, period.
The best refrigeration units will contain a scroll compressor with a high and low pressure manual reset safety control. Cu coils are the most efficient and have the longest life. All other gadgets, are just that. Copeland scroll compressors would be my number one choice. There is no number two for 20yrs of service.
At $6k for a 4-ton split system HP installed, will cover labor and profit for a contractor. For two units, about $11,500, less the geothermal system and you should have contractors beating down your door for the work.
Do not install your own refrigeration system nor size your required geothermal system. Your unit efficiency will greatly suffer. The best thing you can do too protect yourself is make the contractor sign a guaranteed efficiency contract. Never pay money upfront.
T_Bone<---45yrs ASHREA HVAC Design Engineer, Indoor Air Quality Engineer, Energy Management Engineer, AWS-CWI, Retired
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