Briggs and Stratton engine ran with no oil

I know that this is going to be long, but I have to explain it in detail under the circumstances , but I have a friend of mine who works on small engines ( lawnmowers , etc. ) professionally at his house and during the day at a farm store in his county's county seat. Back earlier in the spring, he worked on a lawnmower at his public job and changed the oil and filter and a few other minor things on a Briggs and Stratton Vanguard motor app. ,I guess , 15 - 20 hp. He started it and ran it for at least 10 minutes and drove it around the shop / store and drove it on the trailer and took it home , unloaded it and parked it beside the persons garage . She later came by the shop wanting a clutch electrical switch ( pto ) as the mower would not start. He told her that that probably would not fix it and later she came by saying he was right . Well now ,the lady is suing him saying that she mowed with the mower about 1 hour and a half and it quit running and her son checked the oil and said that there wasn't any oil in the motor . Her claim is that he forgot to put oil in the motor and he says he did. Her neighbors even told him that she came to them wanting oil. Well , our question is this - How long can this engine
( or any small engine like the above mentioned and air cooled) last under a normal load
( meaning mowing grass and running the transmission at full throttle ) on a normal hot summer day about 85 - 95 degrees f.. She said that the person she bought it from had just put a new engine on it , too , if that helps any ,and my friend said that it did look nice . He has been doing this for at least 10+ years and I've watched him change oil plenty of times and never forget to put more back in . So guys, as I stated above, would this motor last 1.5 hours under normal use WITHOUT ANY OIL IN IT AND RUNNING AT FULL THROTTLE ? We say no ,but it all depends on how knowledgable the judge is about motors. What do you guys think - does she sound legitmate or just wanting a new motor ? Do any of you know where I can find any info. on this as my friend was wanting some info . on it . Please tell us what you thing about it and how long the motor would have lasted in your opinion . I , personally believe that it wouldn't last no more than 5 - 10 minutes tops. We want a lot of opinions on this so I am going to post it on a few more forms on this site to make sure that everyone see it. Thank you for all and any help.

Whizkidkyus

1.5 hours does seem to be a long time but I do know that those engines will run quite a long time without seizing. I have an old push mower that was run out of oil,I poured oil in it after it seized and have been using it for 7 years now.
Playing devils advocate here, Just because he never forgot to add oil in the past means nothing mistakes happen to everyone.
If it did have oil in it as he said there would be some sign of oil leakage at his shop or on her lawn, it just did"nt disappear.
If she is or will be a customer and he runs a small engine shop he should be able to get a used engine for little or nothing, why in the name of good customer relations does"nt he offer to split the cost with her?

I can say from personal experience that a small engine can easily run with out oil for more than 20 minutes with out seizing up.When I was around 10 years old Dad drained the oil out of our garden tractor with out me knowing.I used it for well over an hour before it quit.I think now that I"m older I probably would have noticed a change in the sound of the engine but back then never noticed anything until it quit.(a lesson I never forgot,check the oil before you start any engine)Bill M.

Whizzkid: I have seen well worn engines run for a spell without oil, however never a new engine. They are much too tight.

As I see it, still the responcibility of an operator to check oil when starting the workday, no matter who checked it 5 min. ago. Had she done that, then she has an argument. Maybe it had no oil is not an argument.

This is somewhat similar to large truck circle checks. I agreed to haul a load for a guy one day, his truck, his load. When I got there, he said, "I've done the circle check, just sign it and go." I advised him I sign only my own circle checks. Needless to say, I went back home.

Last summer we had a simular B&S engine replaced on a concrete troweling machine (where I worked) The guy who installed the engine put SOME oil in it. (About 1/3rd of what SHOULD have gone in it. He mis-read the manual. It ran about 45 minutes, just long enough to get up to full temp. (It was low to mid 40"s) Then the conn rod siezed to the crank. The engine was replaced with another new one. I got the old one. (I needed the carb for one I had on a hay elevator) I tore it down to see just how severe the damage was. MOst of the internal parts were blue from heat. Even with SOME oil when started, there was very little oil left in the engine upon teardown. My theory (WAG) is that the low oil level caused the rings to go away real quick. That allowed what oil was in the engine to burn away in short order, speeding up the eventual demise. Being a fresh, new un-broken in motor HURT it"s chances rather than helped.



At best, it"s damaged. It MIGHT live a while. It MIGHT live quite a while. Or it may lock up the next time it"s started. No way of knowing for certain, but my money is on a VERY short life.

No way possible for that engine to run even 20 minutes with no oil. I run a landscaping business and in the last 10 years have seen a handful of Briggs throw rods from just being low on oil. A Briggs will not run for any length of time with the oil removed. Another issue, a VanGuard engine should have the low oil shutdown switch from the factory. So somethings fishy about this story.

a profesional mechanic is not going to "forget" to put the oil in, something else has happened to the machine more than likly; but due to the complex situation it will be hard to determin just who did what, you have a "new engine", how new? and from where? or is it a used engine steam cleaned,clear coated and sold to a unsuspecting buyer as new,other people have been at the machine since your friend did the work, who knowes if they did something to it, it also could have run over a pipe stump or other object causing the damage, short of a court ordering the machine seized, and evaluated by independent shop to determin what actually happened to it, its her word against his

"Her neighbors even told him that she came to them wanting oil"


SO she checked the oil, couldnt find any to put in and still ran the engine? that seems like negligence to me

Sounds like someone sold her a mower that had been damaged (run low on oil) and got rid of it just in time.

The starting procedure on every small engine application I own has "Check the oil" as the first or second step.

A Vanguard will not run for an hour without oil - after a few minutes of operation in 80-90 degree temps and you'll start to know something is wrong.

First off, I want to state that I am a briggs certified tech. I am also certified to work on Tecumseh, Kohler, Honda, Subaru/Robin, and Wisconsin. I have been to school to be certified to work on these above mentioned engines(honda and robin were through equipment manufacturers who use these engines in their equipment). I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no way that any of these engines could run at full load and full throttle without any oil in the crankcase for that length of time without siezing up due to lack of lubrication. The lenght of time that the engine was running leads me to believe that there is some significant oil leak on the engine somewhere, the valve guides are excessively worn, or the engine is somehow burning the oil up and thus emptying the crankcase. There is obviously some underlying issue that may have led to a lack of lubrication type failure. Now, I will say that when dealing with an air cooled engine of ANY kind, always advise the customer to use 93 octane fuel in the motor. The higher octane fuel burns more completely and much faster, thus keeping the engine cooler. At a shop that I worked in, we ran two IDENTICAL briggs engines on the bench wide open with one on 93 octane and one on 87 octane. We ran the engines for 30 minutes and then used a digital temp gun to check the temperature of each engine. The engine running on 93 octane fuel ran 115 degrees cooler than the one running on 87 octane fuel. The use of 87 octane fuel (in conjunction with some plugged air fins or screens) could also contribute to the engine getting excessively hot, causing the oil to become much too thin and the oil seeping out of the engine or seeping past rings/valve guides and eventually leading to the ultimate failure of the engine. Hope that this was of some help. Kippster

(quoted from post at 07:01:34 09/24/09) She later came by the shop wanting a clutch electrical switch ( pto ) as the mower would not start. He told her that that probably would not fix it and later she came by saying he was right .

Whizkidkyus

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Who decided the PTO switch was bad? Her? Or was someone else screwing around with the machine.

You are forgetting the basics of your petroleum lessons about octane.
Higher octane ratings of your gasoline will control the combustion process (ie: slowing down) thereby not letting the engine "knock" from the rapid combustion of the unburned fuel with a lower octane rating.
High octane fuel also will not start a cold engine as easily in the winter.

The owner's manual tells the operator to check the oil before starting the engine. This relieves the mechanic from any responsibility of low oil. No basis for a complaint.

kippster; Thanks for your post.

(quoted from post at 09:11:36 09/24/09) The owner's manual tells the operator to check the oil before starting the engine. This relieves the mechanic from any responsibility of low oil. No basis for a complaint.

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I'm not taking sides here, but the lady just had her oil changed by a mechanic she trusted. So her not re-checking the oil when she got home makes sense to me.
How many people take their car somewhere to get the oil changed and then check the oil level before they drive it? I've never seen anybody do it.

I agree that running an engine that long without it seizing up sounds hard to believe, and that PTO business sounds fishy too. But blaming her for not re-checking the oil after it just having been changed by a mechanic, sounds unreasonable to me. I think most people would have done the same.

JMHO
Ronnie

Are you trying to save money or your friends business, if it is money fight it out in court and you have a 50/50 chance of winning, if it is his business you might want to eat crow and replace the engine (with one of your choice so as to keep the cost down). It will settle the matter and show that your friend stands behind his work and then set up a check out procedure so his customer are responsible for the product when it leaves the shop. A sign off sheet that you can go over with the customer, showing them the repairs and services completed and give them the option of taking all the damage or replaced parts with them.

For future reference , might consider a firm policy of checking the oil in the customers prescence on pickup. I would think that would go a long way towards avoiding another situation like this. Only takes a minute. Would be well worth it if it avoided even one repeat incident. Good Luck.

You stated that this happened at his public job. The farm store should be handling this and I'm sure they have some type of policy to deal with it. She has no basis for a suit against him personally and any suit filed would be against the farm store. Fess up, what really happened?

"Back earlier in the spring, he worked on a lawnmower at his public job and changed the oil and filter and a few other minor things on a Briggs and Stratton Vanguard motor"

Also, just because he has added oil every time you've watched, doesn't mean that this one time he forgot about it. It's happened to lots of folks. I have an F350 that had a brand new V10 in it because a certified mechanic forgot to add oil after he did an oil change.

You did not say what year of motor this is most small engines today have oil sensors on them and they will not run when the oil is low.

Wayne, you are also incorrect. Higher Octane does not mean the gasoline burns "slower" or "faster". Octane rating is the gasoline's resistance to being ignited by heat. An engine "knocks" or "Pings" when part of the air/fuel charge is set off by something hot like a glowing piece of carbon, or the heat produced by compression. When the spark plug fires and sets of the rest of the fuel, the 2 flame fronts collide causing the "Knock".
Higher octane fuel does not have any more BTU's in it than regular. Only a higher flash point. Higher octane gasoline does not burn any cleaner or cooler. All things being equal, the engine running 115 degrees cooler would not produce as much power.

With no lubrication, it would be only a matter of a few minutes before the engine tossed rods through the block at full load/rpm. There is something fishy here in my opinion.

I suspect the engine was a worn out clunker,wether it was replaced or not.I have run wood splitters that use oil at a fast rate.Friend ran a generator, brand new that used up its oil on one tank of gas.Son in law filled the tank without checking oil.Engine seized shortly after restart.My sawmill engine has a low oil shutoff but I check its oil on every startup.