parents wanting to almost give the farm away

Situation: Parents purchased grandpa's farm in the 70's for tax value and put into a life estate 16 years ago equally for their 3 adult children. They never farmed it or lived on the old farm. Now one (20 yr-old) nephew has rich farmer parents that want him to buy that farm (which has been cash rented out since 70's). He already has one farm of several hundred acres, which he plans to build on. He has not really farmed any of it as he goes out of state for summer work. Regardless, they have all been kissing butt to have Dad basically sell the farm for a song and dance. The other two siblings on life estate feel our parents should have it properly appraised or not sold at all since they are nearing their 80's. It has caused family conflict for two years. Now they (parents) are not happy that the tax value has gone so high since 2007 (from around a thousand an acre to one parcel being $1800 per acre and another parcel being over 2500 per acre). Then they want to 'gift' back the money to the grandson. This grandson is one of 10 grandchildren with 4 of them being his brothers/sisters. The other grandchildren paid their own way through college or are still doing so. The farmer's children had their educations paid for (tax payers). If our parents were rich I wouldn't mind so much that they are being taken advantage of. But, they live conservatively and Dad takes any money they get and ultimately invests it with brokers that end up losing most of it anyway. The grandson/nephew upon learning that his dad was trying to get him the chance to buy the farm, first asked - "can I sell it?" Our issue is that my other sibling and I have fought against angry aunts and uncles since the 70's (since they feel Dad stole the farm) and insisted they keep that farm in 'our' family for may more years to come. Our family, not the 'one' sibling's family. Or, sell it for a valid price and take a luxury vacation or buy a town home. How do people deal with these issues without appearing greedy or unreasonable? They set the Life Estate, just as the other grandparens did. The nephew isn't even trying to buy their farm (a lot closer too) because they are not suckers to treat one family member better than all others.
P.S. We are all very close to our parents and equally help with medical care, vacations, outings, etc.

There is no good solution that I can see other than its their land to do with as they please. As the laws vary state to state I'm not sure what the life estate stipulations are in your jurisdicition or how it was carried out. I can see some really bad tax consquences though for the parents if they do it. Might make the property taxes look cheap after the IRS gets done.

My personal mottos are guilt has no place in business.

I'm seeing way more conflicts here than a piece of real estate. To me, the first step is to sit down with a LCSW and work out the family problems. Then sit down with an accountant and work out the tax issues. Last sit down with an attorney and work a way to untangle this mess. Business and families, and thats what these things become is families. What starts with one family and it all works out nice to multiple families with multiple beliefs and dynamics.

Guilt has no place in business....what a motto.
I always thought that guilt kept us all in line.
to do the right thing...to each their own.

When my dad passed away and I had the option to buy out my siblings share of his acreage, it stated in his will that it will be sold for fair market value and will need at least 2 property appraisals done. That's the only fair way of doing it. I offered just under the appraisal which the lawyer thought was reasonable because my siblings would get their share of the money right away. I didn't have to buy it and they may have waited a long time to get a couple thousand dollars more from another buyer. Also there were no realtor fees involved which could have easily used up any extra money they might have received. Dave

I have seen greedy relatives screw and try to screw other older relatives. One that stands out in my mind is one uncle. His uncle, my great uncle had to go to a nursing home about 6 years ago, no kids or wife, only had a house and 5 acers or so but my uncle had property surrounding it. When my great uncle went to the nursing home my uncle bought the house for around $40,000.00. No realiter and nobody else had a chance to buy it. Just uncle and his kids sucked up to my great uncle. Ever since my Uncle has just rented the place out but a house and 5 acers for that money was a steal. He will sell it for $100,000 or better whenever he decides to sell.
I would be right after my parents to get the property appraised and sell the land for a fair market value. If the taxes are so high now maybe between you and your siblings you could offer to pay the taxes for them in exchange for going to a lawyer and have it in writing that the property is to be sold for market value and you would be paid back for taxes when property sold.
Not sure of the laws where you are or anything just a thought.
I hope it works out for you and your parents. I really hate seeing somebody get screwed, especially people who could really use the money.

It is better to give with a warm hand , than a cold one. My dad passed three years ago, and the two brothers, who are joint executors, just can"t seem to get the estate done. Pop was 87, farm was in the faimly well over 100 years, and there is a lot emotinal attachment. But as the youngest of 5 kids, between 48 and 63 I would like to see it over. hanging on to the place will not bring the old folks back, and I would like to buy a second farm a littel nearer to my home farm with the help of my share. I currently crop the old home place,as I 'em the only farmer in the faimly, but it is 30 miles away from my dairy. Committes work best if they are made up of one.

I feel for you Cherise, as I'm at the end of a situation with Mom and Dads farm and dealing with VERY greedy relitaves. There were only 2 brothers involved and Aunts and Uncles. The will was very clear but greed set in. I can't give you a cut and dried solution other than "situational ethics". Meaning the solution is different in every case. Do what you feel is best and right and make sure that you can live with the decision. I had to give up some things and I made sure that they gave up some things. Neither side was totally happy but it was worth it to me just to have the whole mess settled after 3 years.

Cherise, when you say:

"Parents purchased grandpa's farm in the 70's for tax value and put into a life estate 16 years ago equally for their 3 adult children"

Do you mean (if you know) the property was then placed in the names of the 3 adult children SUBJECT TO a Life Estate in the parents????????

When elderly clients come to me for estate planning I advise them (if they arent interested in selling the farm whatsoever, want kids to have it when they die) to deed their real estate over to whichever or all kids equally or anyone they wish to have it when they die SUBJECT TO THE RESERVATION OF A LIFE ESTATE IN THEMSELVES. In laymens terms that means mon n dad can live there for the rest of their lives and when they are dead the property passes (outside of probate mind you, file a cheap easy simple survivorship affidavit) to whomever they desired.

IFFFFFFFFFFFFFF thats the case, mom n dad are not free to nor can they sell any fee simple interest to the one farmer dude you mentioned THEY ARE NOT SIEZED OF THE FEE. The only thing they have to selL is what they have, which would be the right for someone else to live (or farm etc) their for the rest of MOM OR DADS LIFE. Then once both mom n dad are dead, the full fee simple reverts back to the kids names placed on the original deed of conveyance. The farmer dude would then have to EXIT unless the kids leased or sold it to him.

Again, ifffffffff thats the case, sure, also the 3 adult children could sell whatever rights they have to the farmer dude, which would be the full fee simple right to that farm AFTER
mom n dad die, and in the meantinme (if they wanted) mom n dad can also sell their Life Estate which would mean framer dude has it alllllllll now if ALLLLLL the kids whose names are on the deed PLUS mom n dad agree......

Im trying to explain (ifffff the deeds is as I asked above) ONLY MON M DAD AND THE ADULT CHILDREN
CAN MAKE ANY SALES NOTTTTTTTTTTTT ANYYYYYYYYY of the other people you mentioned, they have no say so, sorry Charlie. ONCE MORE THIS IS SO only IF THE DEED WAS PLACED IN TEH NAME OF THE 3 ADULT CHILDREN SUBJECT TO LIFE ESTATE IN MOM N DAD

In the alternative if the original deed instead granted life estates in the 3 adult children, those 3 children (and only them) can sell what they have (right to possession in their lifetimes) but who owns the remainder interest?????? NOW SEE WHY YOU NEED PROFESSIONAL ADVICE INSTEAD OF LAY PERSONS ???????????

AGAIN this is an area in which you need to seek competent local professional trained counsel familiar with the laws of your jurisdiction NOT LAYMENS ADVICE ON A TRACTOR FORUM (nor even mine as a professional attorney unfamiliar with all the facts and unfamiliar with your states laws) AS FAR AS THE SPECIFIC LEGAL ISSUES AT LEAST, USE CAUTION.

I do some estate settlements AND SEEMS LIKE IT NEVER FAILS.......Mary lives next door to mon n helps her daily n pays her bills n does all the work for no charge n takes care of mom, BUT WHEN MOM DIES BROTHER FROM CALIFORNIA (who never visited or helped) SHOWS UP AND IS GOING TO BE THE BIG BOSS AND ORDER EVERYONE ELSE AROUND..

So best wishes n God Bless, for sure use professional appraisers so noneeeeeeeeeeee of the family members have any gripe as to the sales price in the event a sale is made AND SEEK ADVICE FROM AN ATTORNEY IN YOUR AREA. The money paid to him will be well worth it if dispures arise later.........

John T, retired Electrical Engineer, now Country Lawyer in Indiana

when dad died mom was in the nursing home, so my brother and sister pulled some strings and got mom to sign everthing over to them. They ended up with all the property, cleaned out dads savings and bank account, took the car that I'd given him. They sold the place, divided up what they wanted, had a sale for what they didn't want, and trashed the rest, some of what was my stuff. An attorney told me I didn't have a leg to stand on, They told a bunch of lies about me to other relitives. Nobody has ever checked to find out just how they got everthing, but won't have anything to do with me. . Where money is involved greed has no bounds.

Our issue is that my other sibling and I have fought against angry aunts and uncles since the 70's (since they feel Dad stole the farm) and insisted they keep that farm in 'our' family for may more years to come.

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Looks like history is repeating itself.


Read and follow what John T Lawyer wrote. You now have legal entities involved that limit what anyone can do this situation.

You need to talk to a good lawyer. When my mom was living I told her to get my sister's name on the deed before she died. I didn't need another home and my brother was on his 5th wife and she would've sold it in a heart beat. When mom died the house went to my sister and last year my sister died and the home went to her son and it was just transfered to him since she had a will
on file. Hal

I must make an important statement.

GRANDCHILDREN HAVE ZERO SAY IN THEIR GRANDPARENTS ESTATE. (As long as there are able bodied children to handle the estate)

My SIL called her grandfather, (my wifes grandfather) 3 years ago and asked for her inheritance early cause she needed to buy a new car. (incredible) to say the least to ask for money before the grandparent is dead.

Tell this kid to shut up and get nothing, the farm is to be sold. End of story.

My mother sold some land to a nephew, since he was the only one in the family who was still actively farming. I'm sure he got a good deal on it. A year later he got out of farming and sold all his land--at market value.

My conclusion: This "keep the farm in the family" is so much sentimental crap. When it gets down to land and money, everybody wants something for nothing.

Being of old age and having a small farm and two kids I'm on the side of the parents. Its their land and as far as they are compinent you have no legal say in what they do with it. Not to say that you can't give them your advise but remember they don't have to take it.
Walt

1. Whose name is on the deed? Is it yours?
2. Who has the authority to decide what's done with the property?

If it's in your name, and you don't have legal authority to decide what's done with the property, then you have no say in the matter. You are what's known, in the layman's terms, as a "spectator" and not a "participant" in the game.

Amazing the number of people who want to play the role of participant, but are legally a spectator.

John T, you are exactly right. Mom & Dad decided 16 years ago to put the farm (and their house in town) in a life estate, naming their 3 daughters to equally receive once they were gone and the other assets to be divided between us three girls and the 10 grandchildren equally (with farmer sister having 5 of them). The unofficial plan was (since the 70's) that us three daughters would someday inherit that farm and continue to cash rent the farm land and own it for as long as we wanted. If one of us didn't want ownership, the other two sisters would have first option to buy that share. It is only two 80 acre parcels and Mom and Dad do not plan to sell the other 80 yet. Since my sister/husband have become fairly wealthy they need to keep reinvesting their money to avoid taxes and are buying land every time some becomes available. This was not available until brother-in-law cornered my dad and gave a sob story to help poor son out. However, now his story is that his son will buy it just so it can 'stay in the family' and how it will take him 20 years to make a profit off of it. He told Dad this morning that if he does not get to buy it that he will personally see to it that Sis and I never see a penny off that farm as he will never allow it to be sold and he would see to it that the cash rent (his wife is named administrator) will be so low Sis and I will never see a penny of the cash rest and he will inform his 5 children that they are also to never allow us to sell or get a penny. WOW!!!

We feel we are forced into honoring their wishes. And yes we all five (parents and sisters) have to agree and be at the closing.

I finally signed the agreement their attorney drew up two years ago allowing the right to sell to farmer dude, but was told it was only for the first 80. Luckily I got a copy and have since seen I was lied to and agreed to part with both 80's between now and 5 years past the death of the last parent. The other sister hasn't signed yet and doesn't want to as she would like to have a chance to buy the second 80 for the same type of offer when Mom and Dad want to sell. The paper I signed said that the sale had to be with cash but wants to do a CFD instead. I told Mom this morning if it was on a CFD the contract was null and void (although I think a CFD would be in their best interest).

Sis and I feel if our parents would improve the quality of 'their' lives, fine..... sell it and spend it. But that is not what they want. They do not believe they are being taken advantage of. Dad feels sorry for farmer dude because he was once a starving farmer too (up until the 60's) and wants to give any grandson a 'chance' if they want to be farmers. This farmer dude has had nearly everything handed to him already on a silver platter and already earns more money per year than my parents made in two years. I left a message for Brother-in-law saying I would sell the first 8- but only if the executor of the estate was switched to my other sister because HE was not going to call the shots.

John, could I get you to speak about the circumstances where a trust could be revoked, if any. I've heard conflicting ideas on this and I understand that anything stated would be subject to the laws here in New York.

Typo...should say, "If it's NOT in your name"...

Legally I am shared owner as it was assigned to us three siters in 1993. Morally, it is Dad's farm. The question is if he is in totally sane mind or not.

OK, I'm confused. Is the deed in your name, or in your dad's name? If it's in your name, you control your 1/3 share, if I understand correctly. The term "assigned" means very little to me...either the ownership was transferred, or it wasn't. My son was "assigned" homework in school, but he didn't always do it.

If it's in your dad's name, he has control.

If the property is in YOUR name [1/3 interest, as I understand], then your dad can only tell what he'd LIKE you to do...it's up to YOU to decide what you do with your 1/3 interest.

What is a LCSW? Social worker?

I mean the first 80 acres. I still can't believe the threat my brother-in-law made today. Their son (ha-ha) isn't privy to any of this - just does what his dad tells him to do. BIL is calling all the shots and has Dad thinking he is great and my kid sister and I are evil. What a mess.

To my understanding it is in all of our names since we all need to agree to sell it and to be at the closing, if sold. Mom, Dad, older sister, me and kid sister, as grantors, and my nephew, as grantee. It is the older sister that has the farmer husband who is calling all the shots. The other husbands are not making any threats or voicing opinions beyond that it should be properly appraised, which Dad refuses to have done.

You need to get a copy of the deed/title.

Gordo

This is too complicated for here and especially NOT reading the Trust instrument. Some trusts are purposely made REVOCABLE while others are IRREVOCABLE and it takes allllllllll sorts of (improper) things to take place BEFORE they can be broken, its NOT easy either BUT IT ALL DEPENDS ON EXACTLY WHAT THE TRUST SAYS AND YOUR LOCAL LAWS

Sorry, cant help ya on this one

John T

Seeeeeeeee theres NO WAY me as an attorney, let alone any lay persons here, can advise UNLESS WE SEE THE DEED.

If it was conveyed to 3 girls SUBJECT TO LIFE ESTATE in Mom n Dad......Mom n dad can sell their Life Estate i.e. that right to live n farm there so long as either lives. They can sell that to farmer dude now n move to town n you cnat stop it. (but you can kick him out after mom n dad die) HOWEVER ONLY THE 3 GIRLS CAN SELL THE FUTURE REMAINDER INTEREST which is fee simple ownership ONLY AFTER mom n dad are both dead. The legal area of FUTURE INTERESTS is complicated which is why AN ATTORNEY needs to see the deed as lay persons might lead you wrong.

SOOOOOOOOOO if you dont wanna sell it then dont freakin sell it. In the event 2 of the 3 girls want to sell but not the other, theres a legal process whereby one or 2 can buy out the others and then sell it of course, AT APPRAISED VALUE so nobody gets ripped off

GET LOCAL COUNSEL dont hang your hat on anything here regardless from attorneys or lay persons who havent read the deed or familiar with your states laws

Best wishes n God Bless

John T Attorney at law

Thank you, John. Only one sister wants to sell it to her son. The other sister and I do not want it sold unless it is for a fair price. We have never seen the deed and I doubt Dad will show it to us until we are at the closing. The farm has not been lived on since my grandparents went into a nursing home back on the 70s. There isn't even a house on it anymore. It is only an investment that Dad rents out to farmers (cash rent) and earns an income from. He was a truck driver before retiring. Frankly, maybe Mom and Dad should have never signed it over to us three girls in 1993. Dad is saying now that in the bible it says that the first child of any family is entitled to 50% of everything. I reminded him this was a 2nd to the youngest GRANDCHILD! Does the bible really say that?
If we ask Dad for a copy of the deed to get a legal opinion, he will get even more angry and so will my brother-in-law. I think we are forced to let the farmer family have their way.

If it will make Dad angry to ask to see the deed, go the courthouse and get your own copy, it's public record and anyone can look at it.

Really? Shoot. I was just in that area a few days ago (it's a couple hours away). Thanks. I'll go.

Many Registry of Deeds across the nation have websites where anyone can view the deeds, liens, mortgages, variences, etc on line. I am in Middlesex County, MA and I think the e-records go back at least 30 years and they keep pushing the availability further back. Goto Google to find the website for your county.

Cherise, I feel for you. I have been where you are before, and I am back there again. When I was young, I lived with my Grandparents. My Grandpa was stricken at age 57 and started a slow decline that lasted 25 years. He was a great man I loved he and my Grandma dearly. I stayed with them for years, helping with the farm, and helping Grandma with my Grandpa daily. I learned, laughed, and cried with them. If I could I would do it all again. For me it was never about money, but about keeping them and the old homeplace together. They had paid for the small farm through the depression, lean years and loss. When my Grandpa died, and Grandma was failing, she wanted to keep things intact. There were only two children, my father and his sister. Grandma wanted to leave her money and personal goods to the sister. The farm would go to my father. The deal was fairly equal. The sister lived far away, and gave lots of trouble. My father wanted Grandma to leave it an equal split, which she did, but warned of trouble. When Grandma got sick, the sister "came home" because she was deeply concerned. Took over the house, made plenty of comments about Grandchildren had no say. This sister took all the loose goods Grandma had. Took the tractor and tools, small Ferguson etc that Grandma gave me. The 57 pickup truck Grandma gave her other grandson, this being the sisters boy. Sister came on to our place and stole anything old she could find. Lived in and trashed Grandmas old house. Just before the sister died, she sold the old house to her husbands relatives. The sheriff wore out a cruiser visiting them. Fast foward to today, My father in law has died, my mother in law is fastly failing. A neighbor boy is kissing up to her at a fever pitch. My parents are both failing too. My father is a loose cannon. All of the have the Its mine I will do what I please attitude. And I guess that is correct and ok. But all come round with their hat in hand for doctor visits, projects, and many other things. I still help, and do as much as possible, but sometimes it is difficult when dealing with these situations. But I have said all of that to say this. Now that I am hugging 60, material things have lost some luster. John T. and others have given you good advice. Find a good unbiased lawyer, have him study the deeds, etc. Then follow his advice and your heart. And more importantly learn from all of this. I loved the line, "give from a warm hand". May we all who have something to share pass it off while we are living. That way we are assured it will happen. In our state, more wills get lost, more deeds fixed it is criminal, or should be.