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Unions

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trucker40

Well-known Member
I just looked at some stuff about what life was like before unions.Kids working for nothing at 6 years old and talking about slaves working in textile mills in Alabama and the whole South in 1910.Women that looked like 60 at 30 years old having 4 kids working with them in the same factory to get one paycheck that would barely feed them.Yeah and thats just less than 100 years ago.It was 1938 I think before the government passed child labor laws that unions and just concerned people had been trying to pass since the 1800s.Europe was just as bad maybe worse.
Anybody who can read can learn this stuff.We are being lied to every day.Sure things are better now but I dont see anybody doing anything to keep things that way.Actually all I see is things getting set up to get worse,maybe lots worse than they are now.I sometimes feel that unions have done some wrong in the last 30 years,yet I am beginning to wonder if its not company people that infiltrated the unions to make them appear to be worse than they are.Lots of things about what has happened to our country are lied about all the time.With the record of industry in the past,nobody can trust them to run it fair to the workers.Plus the unions had them so well at one time they probably did infiltrate the unions to destroy them.I have seen some things that didnt make sense to me when I was in a union but it doesnt justify throwing them all in the trash.Some of the stuff they do is totally necessary and there are some people that can tear up a crowbar in a sandbox no matter how easy the job is.Instead of getting rid of the unions they need to be kept in place but modernized to where they work.That might mean some things would need to have government oversight.Otherwise we are heading right back to the world as it was before unions,a miserable place for working people.
 
Say what you will about them but unions pretty much made the middle class in America.

Ever study coal mining before unions?
 
I am a public employee in northern California, a Firefighter, Paramedic, Hazmat specialist, Technical rescue (confined space ect), and a reserve police officer, I think the union dues I pay are the best investment in my future, and Americas future, that I can make. I suspect the anti-union people jelous or ignorant. I am glad we are in a country where we are free to choose.
If someone dosent want to join a union I think that is great. Have at it. We have many Right to Work states in the US. If you can't stand union shops move to one of them. You may make more money, for a while, or untill you get killed at work.
 

Textile workers in the South were not the only ones that had poor working conditions and low wages. At the time, factory jobs were a step up from what they were doing on the farm. Your comment about the whole family working brings up another point. During my working life and including the present day, most wages have not been high enough for one salary to support a family. With both parents working, unsupervised children have caused various problems.

Also, a trap many couples fell into was to buy too much house where the house payment equaled one pay check. If one partner lost a job, they had a tough time. Some union wages are high enough to avoid this problem, but I think many couples with high wages just spent more.

Factory workers who came off the farm were generally pretty saving. Their children and grandchildren haven't always kept this up.

KEH
 
Child labor laws were a good thing to happen, but families were for the most part larger.
Grampa was 14 when he went to work in the steel mill, and was the 2nd of 7 siblings. Grama was 12 working as a cook for a wealthy family in town, helping support the family. (9 other siblings)
Immigrant families were closely nit, and most of the time it was a matter of helping the family to survive economically.

Unions were great for setting the rules of fairness when the were formed, but like all things the power they gained was abused. The unions SHOULD have been stricter in their own ranks to police the freeloaders and dead weight.
 
I am a retired locomotive Mechanic, though the
job title is "machinist" from the old days when
the mechanic/machinist actually "made" replacement parts. The International Association
of Machinists, (and later, Aerospace Workers),
IAMAW, was actually started in a railroad
Roundhouse. Without the union, even today, there
would be more deaths in the railroad industry,
as the companys always put schedules ahead of lives
"Up hill slow, Down hill fast, Profits first,
Safety last !"
 
Thats what I call redistributing the wealth, one catch, you had to go to work everyday to get it. First thing I did after getting a job was join the union. Throwing hay bales on a hot summer days and still having nothing will get your mind thinking straight.
 
Yeah, your state is doing really good paying you 3 times what your worth. Enjoy the next few years of pay cuts. You didn't choose to join a union. You happen to work at a place that is represented by one. How do you figure its a good investment in america's future when the rest of the states are having to pay for your welfare?
 
OK, and here's Michigan! The big three paying guys $28.00 an hour and more to a guy putting a screw in a fender. This was fine until we opened the borders to allow inports. Now there is no way you can pay that wage and compete with japan cars. So lets give them a bailout - waste of tax payers money!
I worked a long time in a union and watched it save the jobs of a lot of drunks and dope users - the lames that didn't work hard, and in a union shop, you only have to work as hard as the biggest lame in there, cause there is no incentive, you all get payed the same.
In a non-union shop, you can negociate your pay raises and the hard workers will advance and the lames will not.
Unions are kinda like socialism.
I like the guys who strike for about 6 months, loose all that money, and come back to work with the same or worse contract and have years to make that pay back that they lost. Power to the people!
Yes we needed unions 100 years ago but they turned in to organized extorsion which is killing this county's ability to compete.

Business is to make money, not provide jobs - that's why they now move to Mexico - the unions and high wages drive them outta here.
Won't sell me on unions!
 
Just because some unions did more good then bad, once upon a time - it has nothing to do with the way things are now.

The south did well once due to slavery. So, by your reasoning - since it worked well for some at one time, is it time to make it legal again?

If you want to enforce your argument by citing events in history, why not start with Ford Motor Company before it was unionized - when it paid more than the union shops at that time, and also gave much better benefits.

Back in the times you mention, many protective laws were not in place (No OSHA, SSI, SS, Medicare, Medicaid, HEAP, HUD, etc.), and . . . families could starve to death, freeze to death, die from lack of medical care, etc. Now? With all the give-aways, welfare, etc.? Some working-poor might starve by choice - but if you choose to not work at all, you get all kinds of care paid for by those that DO work.

Unions now adays are mostly specialized in legalized extortion, and most often do best in areas where no one person has any real interest in how well a company does - e.g. no profit motive, no demand for excellence - i.e. tax payer supported jobs e.g. teachers, state and county workers, now the UAW backed by external_link, etc.
 
IH244

I wish there were more people that have the mind power to think like you. "Business is to make money, not provide jobs" To many people fail to realize that they have to work to keep there position at a company. If the company is not profitable then there will be no jobs. Americans should put business's up on a pedestal and be thankful that the owners were willing to take the risk and had the initiative to start companies so that there would be jobs. Anyone that I hire, I am glad to be able to provide a means for them to make a living and support their families, but I also expect to make a profit from their labor as well. The more you respect the company, the more I respect you and wan't to keep you. Pretty simple concept, but a lot of people can't seem to figure out even the simple things.

Jim
 
Unions had their place at one time. However, today we have federal OSHA, state OSHA, child labor laws, etc. to protect workers and provide a safe environment. Our non-union shop is just as safe and fair as any Union shop but without a Union guy walking around with a contract in his back pocket looking for grievance filers. Getting paid, by the way. I knew a union rep who, by contract, could be in the plant, on the clock, any time a worker was there. This guy was in the plant 7 days a week 10-14 hrs a day, doing nothing. Sleeping most of the time. Producing nothing of value for the company. Explain to me how that is right, fair or moral.

If unions were so great, companies would be fighting to build plants in states where they are strong (Michigan for instance). Look where the transplants set up shop: in right-to-work states.

relaurain is right. Unionists are socialists, pushing for the re-distribution of wealth. The owners of the companies are classified as "evil", "greedy", when in fact it is they who put up the capital and take on risk to start the business. The unionists risk nothing. They wrap themselves in their contract and even when the company is in jeopardy, they fight and resist every effort to make the company profitable. This has been evidenced by resistance to concessions in the GM and Chrysler cases. Furthermore, individual effort is looked down upon in a union environment and anyone who provides something of value to the company outside of the contract (like working through a break or helping someone with their job) is ostracized and villified for their "company" attitude.

No, unions are dinosaurs whose useful days are long gone. If the best that trucker40 can do to justify unions is to bring up stuff that happened 75-100 yrs ago, LOL, that pretty much says it all.
 
I just threw this out as a general idea to get people thinking why there are unions hoping they would at least look at child labor and see what happened in the past.This is a big part of who we are now and also its what made this a good country.Some people wont ever understand because they wont look at what happened in history,or will believe whatever lie some propaganda mill is pushing that day.Unions made this country.There is way more to the story than the idea that unions used to be good now they outlived their usefulness crowd.If there werent any unions tomorrow,and about 75% of them from 1980 are gone,we would be in a lot worse condition.The big wheels that make lots of money,the politicians that represent them,and a lot of other stupid people,dont care if you work all day and cant afford to live on your pay.Thats the whole problem with things now.People mostly work for non union companies,now it doesnt matter what minimum wage is,its not enough money to live on.Unions dont have much pull because they have been beat down to nothing.I could be wrong,but it looks to me like all of the politicians are representing big money.When that happens things dont get better for working people.
This is something there is no excuse for.Lots of people fought in wars so we could have a good country for us to live in.For a bunch of crooked and greedy politicians to give it all away for a few dollars is retarded.Its even worse when working people agree with them.Before anybody says how bad unions are from now on they first need to read about how things were without unions.I dont have time in the rest of my life,and dont know words enough to describe,all the things wrong with whats going on now.Yeah the UAW got a little extravagant,but those are multinational companies.In China they have slaves working for them.Its real disgusting when you look at the whole story.It will be a lot better to keep unions than to ruin the company to get rid of them.Anything that helps working people from now on will just be an accident as a crooked politician does something for rich people that own the company and a benefit might trickle down to help the worker.Isnt that what the non union crowd is saying?Isnt that the way it works now?
 
I do not like unions for one reason. I have seen to many union workers getting paid for doing nothing. I was in the Navy in the Philly shipyards in 1968. We had a guy that came into our control room everyday. Did nothing but drink coffee and read a book all day five days a week for the four moths I was there.Never did any work. He even went on sea trials with us so he got extra pay for doing nothing. Saw another worker in a Bell plant here in Texas. At the time he was making 22.50 an hour to watch a machine punch out washers. Did nothing else. If it broke he called the repair section.A untrained monkey could have done his job. All I see now is union workers demanding more money from a company that is going under.
 
Alright,and I dont want to get into a long drawn out fight over it,but I was saying things are lots better since we had unions than before we had unions.Was there a mob influence that got people turned against unions,yes there was.Was there a bunch of greedy people that caused unions to be started,yes there was.There were problems on both sides,those need to be fixed rather than go the no union is a good union route.Also if the South did so well with slaves I wonder how well you would like that statement if you were a slave in the South?You know we could go back to that.Hook a bunch of city folks up to a field cultivator and beat them with a whip to make them pull it around the field.That could be a real possibility if the price of Diesel gets outrageous.Some people might say Hitler did well in Germany,but you might find a little disagreement from the Jews.
 
I worked in a non union welding shop one time.After working there a couple of months there was this guy in line at the time clock I had not seen before.Real recognizable because his head was shaved?I asked somebody who is that?They said oh he used to work here and still punches the clock,but he invented something and the company got a patent on it and he got mad about it and quit working,but they still pay him so he wont sue them.They got mad and said if he doesnt punch the clock he dont get paid.
We need to fix the unions not get rid of them.Read how good things were before unions.
 
All I said was read how good what you are talking about worked in the past.Are unions perfect,no.Is life lots better without unions,no its horribly worse.In another 20 years without unions you wont be able to tell the USA from China.Argue that!
 
Unions had there place and time, now they need to adjust to the times and market.
I work as an electrician in a non union shop. Today we have alot of work and only five percent of our field employees are laid off.
Years ago my company came in as the lowest bidder by a long shot for a very large government project. Every union contractor threatened to leave the job. Needless to say we didn't get the contract.
 

It was really controversial when the corporate hog farms first moved in out here.

The stench of the sewer ponds will turn your stomach if you aren"t used to it.

The folks selling the land to the hog farms & that work there & that are making money off the hogs say it just "smells like money".

I guess if you are making a cushy living with the unions, maybe you can hold your nose to the stink & say it "smells like money"...

But to a lot of people outside the unions, the corruption, and laziness, and mob influence, and arrogance just plain will turn your stomach with the stench...


Howard
 
Unions, just like with people, have some that are good and some that are bad. My dad was union with the CWA for 35 years and while he enjoyed better pay and benefits it drove him nuts that as a steward he had to defend the lazy and ignorant to try to keep their jobs when they should have been fired long ago. My mom was a school teacher for a district that ditched the state employees union because it was just a blood sucking parasite. Which it basically was. So I have seen both sides of it. One of the guys I grew up with just joined a local welders union that is actually changing with the times. Pay and promotions are merit based, not job title and senority based. But still has the benefit of a better pension and better benefits. Only been around for a year so far and seems to be working, maybe others will catch it. Who knows.
 
Who was forcing those children to work? Certainly not the factory owners. Do we need labor unions to protect children from their parents?
 
Well at least you sound like you actually worked in a union shop.In every non union shop I ever worked in top pay was under lowest pay in a union place,explain that?Yeah what you say sounds good maybe to some people,but its not true.Do good paying non union jobs exist?Yes they do.Are some non union jobs better than union ones?Sure there are.Would we have a way of life that would allow non union jobs to be so good without unions?No we wouldnt.
I agree the extortion part is bad,doesnt help unions side.I say fix the union dont throw it away.
Big business makes money union or not.The reason they go to Mexico is because they can,and actually were encouraged to by past administrations who I think of as traitors.
Should we bail out the auto industry to save the UAW?No.There may be reasons to bail out GM and Chrysler,but I think firing all of the managers and putting smarter people in charge would have done it.Nobody cares what I think though.
Unions are still necessary whether you like it or not.If we get rid of the unions then its not long before its just like China here.Anybody that ever carried a gun to defend this country is probably going to disagree with you if it means getting rid of unions so we can be like China is the thing to do,dont you think?I cant see why a working person is so rabidly against the union.Yeah they arent perfect,but they are better than not having them and can be fixed.
Business is to make money sure.Its not to provide jobs,well maybe.Now if you want to have slaves work so your business to make money,then you might start having trouble with the people.If the people dont want to buy what you sell because you have slaves make it(the way things worked when we were sane at one time)then it gets a lot better for business to treat workers right.So on one hand you think non union is better because they can negotiate pay raises?Pay that wont equal the lowest union pay and certainly less benefits?Thats not better and you know it,if you ever worked in a union place and were honest.Then on the other hand we need to be non union because a company should be able to have slaves work for them?Not in any world I want to imagine living in.I bet you wont like a world like that either.I dont think you worked in a union place or maybe were fired from one.More of what you say sounds like you might have been a company man instead of a worker.Union is about the only way to work in a factory,and thats not all that good even now.There are lots of people,even most of the union people that work for barely enough money to survive,and they work hard.Its not fair to point to the UAW and claim all unions are bad.Try a non union chicken plant compared to a union one and tell me which is better.
 
Stupidity was forcing those kids to work.When you start working at 5 or 6 how much time do you think you have for education?Then when you are worn out and die by about 45 how many more fights will you try to get in to make things better.Who was forcing those children to work?People that didnt care.If things were that way now,would your family have wanted you to work in a factory at 6 years old?Would you want to be a slave in 1910 in the south in the textile industry?Read about it.Sitting there saying who forced these children to work is as bad as the people not caring about it in earlier history.My own Grandpa quit school in the 3rd grade to help his dad farm so the younger 11 kids wouldnt starve.Life was harsh in the past.
 
I don"t normally chime in on this type of topic, but try this one on for size and see how it goes over. Recently in the area they gave out awards like every year to the best teachers. One had taught for only 3 years and everybody talked great about her. Then comes a funding shortage in the school system, and they need to cut 5 teachers. This lady gets cut because she has less years in the union than the rest. What a joke, you cut one of the best teachers in the school system because she"s young. The decision had totally nothing to do with how good she was. How is that fair to your children and mine?
 
YEA! Remember Jimmie Hoffa, by the way what ever happened to that little Pip-Squeak anyway.

I know that Onions are good for the work force but they usually stink for the rest of us.
Walt
PS have you ever voted for a Union Boss or do they just get the job though accession.
 

"life was harsh in the past"

Yep - it was harsh because there weren't child labor laws back then, or electricity in every house, cell phones, or 3 vehicles per family, or 7-11's on every corner...

The world has changed... We don't need buggy whip manufacturers anymore, do we??

And most of the union legacy in today's business environment is as out-of-date as buggy whips...

There are just a lot of desperate people still trying to cling to that shady legacy...


Howard
 
Unions arent perfect.Thats one part of a union thats not always good for a worker but a good teacher will find another job.I think teachers would rather have a union than not have one.The pay scale was real low for teachers before there was a teachers union.That just shows you even the government will cheat workers and give lots of money to managers who turn around and cheat the workers so they can get more money for themselves.Without a union you dont have anybody on your side.Its you against the system and you are going to loose.Unions are a little better,but not perfect either.If they want to get rid of you they will and somebody that tears up more than they can fix will keep their job.
 
I dont know where out here is,but the hog farms around here arent union and you have to be real close to the newer ones to smell them.The older ones can get kind of ripe.The new ones will probably get worse with age.If 3 or 4 people werent trying to raise 2 or 3 thousand head of hogs in one place then there wouldnt be such a big problem with the smell.Maybe what the problem amounts too is that Agriculture prices are so low that a farmer has to raise 2 or 3 thousand head of hogs to make a decent living now.This could open up a whole other line of controversy.
 
You might also want to think about this-if it wasnt for Henry Ford there wouldnt be cars for working people,cell phones,electricity,or 7-11s,probably still would have steam trains and ride horses.
 
Im sure I missed his point,I still dont get what he was saying.Corporate farming is a result of traitor politicians and global marketing which is about as far from a union as you can get.
 
I agree that at one time unions were a great thing. Everyone today do enjoy better working conditions that, in part, were changed because of union influence. However too much of a good thing is not necessarily good. At some point workers rights become counter productive. It became too expensive for companies to operate here and that's why they started moving out. Unions not only influenced pay and benefits, they were also instrumental in the development of OSHA, EPA, FDA and others. Those agencies are not all bad but they became too strong also. In some industries over 1/2 the cost of production is complying to government regulations. The pendulum has swung to far and now it probably will swing back too far. It seems that we Americans can't do anything in moderation.
 

My point was - anyone benefiting from some cushy union job can probably stand the stink.


For most of the rest of society & business environment that I see - unions just stink...


As I've mentioned in the past, good hardworking friends of mine have had Caterpillar equipment destroyed, lazy leeches that are impossible to fire just sucking the life out of the business, etc...


I thought the American dream was predicated on working hard & working smart on your own...

As far as I'm concerned, the union cowards that wrecked all the construction equipment were just too weak & lazy to go out and earn a living on an even playing field with REAL workers... So they hide behind the union's skirts with extortion & coercion...

HH
 
No different now with mexicans. allaways be some one who will hire them for slave wages. You can,t blame the mexicns for wanting to better themselves but it is the employer who is realy reaping the gold. Improper conditions is what started the unions.they steped up and got control for the workers. some of you proably have never worked for this kind of people. If the unions all fold we will be right back to where we came from
 
I may be wrong but the way I understood the anology was that if a person is making money they tend to overlook the problems that it is making for other people. The corporate hog farms may be making money so they don't care if it was offensive to someone else. In the same way that unions may be making money but don't care if it is harmful to the company. I'm not passing judgement on anyone that's just the way I see it.
 
I agree with the guys that are for the union,but also agree with the other side somewhat,The unions got to much power for a while and misused it,But all in all they have done more for us that any other origination,Someone mentioned putting a screw in a fender for $28 an hour,How would you like to do that all day every day,mindnumbing to say the least,I would much rather be out on a tractor making less money,OSHA, EPA, FDA dont always help the worker,most of the time they hurt the worker
 
Well all the praise from some and scorn from others concerning Unionization of a particular Craft or Trade aside I can say I am proud to have been a part of the Carpenters & Millwrights International Union during my 32 years as a Journeyman Carpenter.Sure there were unpleasant times but the good times far out shone the bad.I have been a recipient of a very good Pension share since 1999 from my participation as a member of this Union for 32 years.Our retirement years have been good because I believed in my support and participation in the causes of my Union with fellow Brothers and as a result of this belief I recieve every month on time, financial support called a "Pension Check"to continue our life style as long as we live along with numerous side benefits. Long live the Unions,for with out them the working middle class of citizens of this and and any other country will soon become entraped in a Serfdom created by the people of wealth we have not seen since the dark ages.My Carpenters Pension remains constant and the future of it is well regulated while I see the 401K's of unfortunate believers of this type of retirement security have lost much of their future 401K benefit from the near collapse of the worlds financial system.IMHO JH
 
I agree some what with the counterproductive but it could have been infiltration of big money to ruin the workplace from the inside,or people could really be that dumb.The reasons companies are leaving is because they were encouraged to by Nafta,Cafta,Gat,far more than anything else.They also could have been stopped if politicians had not aided in ruining the country.Yes some of those agencies got too strong,but its because of corruption.The same corruption in teachers unions that exists in politics is how these agencys got strong,and how Sarah Brady got the Brady bill,and Madd mothers made it a huge problem to drink a beer and drive.We have to fix things to survive.Working for minimum wage or less,buying Wal Mart junk and watching the jobs leave is not necessarily time to throw away unions.Nothing is going to work for working people,workers have to force the change and about the only thing that will work is unions.It is just more of the same crap the big money side has always pulled.They wanted to weaken and get rid of unions,they attacked them inside and out and now they are nearly gone and the future looks like China unless unions get fixed and grow.All unions are not the UAW either.
 
Since you put it like that I see what you mean.Why not this-get the union to help the company rather than hurt it.I dont get all of this unions hurting the company stuff.Especially a company like GM.In all of the billions if not trillions of dollars they made in the past and a couple of bad years and its the unions fault.Not really.Its the managers fault.
 
Your right about the corruption but much of that came from union influence. I also agree that there is still a place for unions because as I said the pendulum will swing too far the other way. NAFTA and other trade agreements was brought about because it had got too expensive for companies to make what their stockholders demanded. Unions have to share part of that blame, and there is plenty to go around. Each group whether it is an agriculture group, church group or a union must deal with corruption. And the cleaning up must start within each organization.
 
Soon as the new Giants stadium is completed and they wreck the old one Hoffas body will pop out of the concrete.
 
I don't work for the state, I work for a county. Pay cuts? Not my experience, every time someone retires I pick up more overtime, that will continue untill I retire. I like making 3 times as much as I would someplace else. It was my choice to work where I do, no one gets drafted into a union job. As for welfare, California has always been on the low end of tax dollars returned to the state. About 70 cents for every dollar we send to DC. Most states get more that they send. Anyway, many signs the economey getting better here and govt spending is getting under control.
 

Unions have become a cancer to American manufacturing and are gladly going the way of the dinosaur. Many companies and American jobs haver been destroyed by them. Glad to see their numbers are a fraction of what they once were. Glad Ragan was man enough to stand up to the airtraffic controllers union and start the ball rolling.

Since manufacturing has recovered from WWII in othewr countries, union labor simply can't compete.
 
That right there is the reason the country is in the shape its in.The unions made it what it is and Reagan destroyed it with a little help from crooks and nnalert corrupt politicians.This one track mind idea that its the unions fault is mostly propaganda.Yeah they arent perfect but they can be fixed.
 

Yeah, And let the airtraffic controllers union shutdown all air traffic in US. That's the union way. Ragan did good.

Not propaganda. Company I work for was able to shut down the union plants and consolidate manufacturing to non-union plants. Otherwise the union would have run us into the ground like they have so many other American companies. Unions are bad for America. Our union plants couldn't hold a candle to our non union plants. Glad we could shut them down, glad American unions are shrinking. Good ridance.
 
John - I don't mean this as being critical to you, but do you realize that for all that money to be set aside for you to have your nice pension check each month, some poor customer was overcharged to compensate. The unions don't just have that money sitting there. It has to be added to the bottom line of some poor end user. The union was good for you, but a hell'uva drain on the rest of the country. It's a shame you guys can't see that. The union has outlived it's usefulness. And by the way, I have dealt with unions on the "owner's side" of the spectrum. I remember once in Burns Harbor, In where a whole job came to a halt while your famous carpenter's union and the labor union had to work out an agreement on who got to deal with emptying the outhouses. You'll notice I said who GOT to, not who HAD to. Pitiful example of unions in my mind.
 
Everyone keep bringing up Ragan and the aircraft controllers. #1, Now lets get something straight. Controllers really didn't have a union. It was called one but wasn't. They signed when they went to work not to strike and Gov. employs don't have right to strike, therefore not "really" a union. #2, everyone keeps saying how unions get what they want and brake the company with demands. Well controllers didn't get what they wanted. Don't talk about Ragan being anti union while Bill Clinton a number of times made union members go back to work or not strike at all. He was supposed to be pro union and yet kept union members from doing what was legal. Ragan did what was legal and the controllers were doing what was illegal, yet Ragan was downed.
I am strong union, been a member for 45 years. I am retired now and still pay union dues and carry a union card which I will till I die.
 
Communities and schools will almost always find a way to keep the teachers they really want to keep. The situation you describe is really more about lack of funding for public education than work rules.
Let's assume that teacher really IS the best in the system. It's unfortunate that she lost her job, but what's the alternative? Who makes the decision about who to keep and who to let go if there is no contractural agreement between the school board and the teachers?
The contractural agreement will never be perfect, but it's generally a lot better than the days when a teacher could be let go because a school board member's son got a low grade in a class, or someone was dismissed to make room for some influential community member's child who just graduated with a teaching degree.
Most teachers "unions" are organizations that have loose federation with state and national organizations, and almost never have complete staff membership. The generally don't even begin to rise to the union status of the United Mine Workes, or the Teamsters.
 
We have 2 big manufacturing shops in town One is union and one is not union. The non union shop is where I work. We get the same top rate as the union shop. We get $4400 gross profit sharing. They dont. We get a cola once a year and they dont. We get good cheap health care coverage they dont. We get 4-10's in the summer with 3 days off. They dont. The only thing they have that we dont is a triple time wage on holidays. We shut down on holidays. Heck the profit sharing check replaces triple time. Heck no we dont wanna union. 6 years ago we voted for a union and it was voted down by a landslide! Yehaw
 
Your rant is over I hope and I rate you as one of those who has scorn for a union and some contempt of me,so,I know It would be fruitless to indulge you,so, I'm sure your experiences were not to your satisfaction ,I wonder why.Weren't you a Team Player? Most of the Draggers on a construction site were non conformers who wanted to be elsewhere when they were on the "mans" time.Carpenters emptying Out Houses? I don't think so. Never happen. Laborers dispute with the sanitation company,probably. You offer some trumped up story to justify your access to this forum.That's OK. bye bye!
 
Clinton did very little to help working people but he was President during a nnalert congress.Which kind of made him a nnalert.Reagan might have done what was legal in that case but was the beginning of the end for unions.I think unions went too far sometimes.Firing all the air traffic controllers was more of a statement by Reagan that he didnt like unions than right or wrong.Reagan was really a crook,he just didnt know how much of a crook he was.Reagan is why mom and dad both are working to pay the bills and responsible for lots of farmers going broke.Reagan is more of a problem with our country than unions are,and lots of people liked him.Reagan probably would have been different if he knew what he caused.Reagan was put in by corrupt people who used him to get rid of things like unions and fair pay.Reagan is not worth defense when so many have fought for our country and he is one of the ones throwing it away.Clinton is nothing to brag about either,going in the same direction just slower.
 
Never happened? I am sorry but I have news for you. It did happen. The year was 1980. If you want to make people believe unions are still the greatest thing, that's your privelege. Don't try to act like you know everything a union has ever done. By the way, we were the General Contractor. You think I'm kidding, but it's sad to say I'll promise you I'm not. And what about my question of where the money comes from for your pensions? If the union didn't negotiate it in the contracts, and have to have the companies charge more for their products, your precious jobs wouldn't be heading south so fast. You're right I have a severe distaste for the unions, but I don't have any hard feelings for most of the people who belong to a union. Several of my family are union members so I have nothing against the person.
 
The thing you are missing is that when Reagan was running for office he wrote the following letter to PATCO. Nice letter, he just never kept his word.

A Reagan Letter to Robert Poli, PATCO (Oct. 20, 1980)


"Dear Mr. Poli:

I have been briefed by members of my staff as to the deplorable state of our nation's air traffic control system. They have told me that too few people working unreasonable hours with obsolete equipment has placed the nation's air travellers in unwarranted danger. In an area so clearly related to public safety the Carter administration has failed to act responsibly.

You can rest assured that if I am elected President, I will take whatever steps are necessary to provide our air traffic controllers with the most modern equipment available and to adjust staff levels and work days so that they are commensurate with achieving a maximum degree of public safety....

I pledge to you that my administration will work very closely with you to bring about a spirit of cooperation between the President and the air traffic controllers.
Sincerely,

Ronald Reagan"

And after they endorsed him and voted for him...
 
(quoted from post at 05:47:42 06/12/09) Soon as the new Giants stadium is completed and they wreck the old one Hoffas body will pop out of the concrete.
Click to expand...

Really? I thought he was in a bridge abutment in New Jersey.
 
(quoted from post at 07:16:36 06/12/09) John - I don't mean this as being critical to you, but do you realize that for all that money to be set aside for you to have your nice pension check each month, some poor customer was overcharged to compensate. The unions don't just have that money sitting there. It has to be added to the bottom line of some poor end user. The union was good for you, but a hell'uva drain on the rest of the country. It's a shame you guys can't see that. The union has outlived it's usefulness. And by the way, I have dealt with unions on the "owner's side" of the spectrum. I remember once in Burns Harbor, In where a whole job came to a halt while your famous carpenter's union and the labor union had to work out an agreement on who got to deal with emptying the outhouses. You'll notice I said who GOT to, not who HAD to. Pitiful example of unions in my mind.
Click to expand...

Sundown on the union,
made in the USA.
Sure was a good idea,
'till greed got in the way.

Bob Dylan.
 
Well unless you were an air traffic controller,how would you know if they needed to strike or not?My brother was an air traffic controller at the time in the Air Force and he called me up and told me he was smoking 4 packs of cigarettes a day back then and he didnt even smoke because thats how much stress he was under.He couldnt strike because he was in the Air Force.That was a highly stressful job.Maybe if you had been an air traffic controller back then you would have wanted to strike too?
 
Now we have child labor laws.

Now we have OSHA.

Now we have minimum wage.

Do we still need unions? Sounds like you think everything would revert back to the way it was if unions weren't around.

Now, for the real truth. How many manufacturing jobs have left our country? Keep the unions, lose the jobs. Good idea.

Now I know you, you'll blame the job losses on the "big greedy corporations" moving jobs out of the country, I've heard it all before from you.

A company exists for only one reason, to make a profit. Not to provide jobs, not to provide healthcare, and not to keep a certain community afloat. If they can't make a profit they'll close or leave, you can't change that.

If you diagree with that, why don't you start your own business with that in mind. Start your own truck repair place and don't worry about the profits, just make it a nice place for lots of people to work. Don't worry about profits. See how well you do.

What's that? You don't want to take the risk and start or run a company yourself? That's what I thought. But there are people out there that will take the risk. They'll put up their own money, or even borrow money to make a go of it. And if and when they are successful, you hold that against them, and now in your mind they are greedy corporatists.

Can't have it both ways, Slick.
 
I have had my own business and was successful.I got sick and couldnt do the job any more.If it werent for unions there would be no middle class,or child labor laws,or OSHA,or minimum wage.Have you ever walked a picket line?If not for people standing up to and taking from the rich using a union there would not be a middle class or way of life we have now.The reason non union will get us back like China is nobody respects slaves.Rich people will respect you if you stand up to them.
 
There is corruption everywhere,and especially anything associated with the corrupt government like the Postal Service.I used to deliver to post offices and saw how they were.I think a lot of their problems are from corrupt managers.Nobody cares what I think as I have said before,but firing those managers and hiring some more workers would make the whole thing better in my opinion.Now the corrupt people setting in an office jack up the price of shipping and stamps and dont have any more workers than they absolutely have to have so they can steal more money.At a post office dock you could back right in because you were the only truck there,then wait to be unloaded,then wait to be counted.Very nice people working there,but working very hard because there was not enough of them.
 
I don't believe unions are the problem per se.
I can show you companies that pay high union wages and still pay out 5% + dividends to their shareolders each and every year, including last year. I can also show you non union operations that have their notices of first meeting in the paper right now...

The problem I see, and more often in a union environment is that they seem to have very strict ideas on job descriptions, who does what, etc. When you get in that environment, trouble starts. When someone adopts the idea that they're there to get the job done, and do it, union or not, they'll move ahead. Paying big wages to people who work is more efficient than paying little wages to twits who do nothing or don't know how to do anything or won't change with the times...

Rod
 
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