UNIONS ????

Tell me I am wrong to think the unions have put this country in the mess it is in.The car unions,postal unions,teachers union the list goes on and on where the company or business cannot tell its employs what they can afford to pay.The unions tell the employer what to pay them or they will strke.Look at where we are now.Broke.Am I wrong to think this? Just my thoughts.

Yeah your wrong.Lets all work for Wallmart.

Sounds like another one who never worked in a factory never attended a meeting never paid dues doesent know nothing about safety in a working place or even knows what a worker does sojust be quiet unless you have been there. 8 hrs work for 8hrs pay and be there on time and do your job with what they give you.

I dont know what you do and really dont care,but it wasnt for unions you would be making about 6 bucks an hour.what about the people who gave out sub-prime loans,the people that hedged up the price of gas,the appraisers that gave phony values for homes so the mortgage companies could issue loans,and the mortgage lenders who wrote mortgages for higher payments that the borrower made per month.
the money people are the ones who screwed this country and they will do it again

Never worked in any others, but have been paying dues in the packinghouse for 41 years. Wouldn't do it any other way. The Union today doesn't have the clout they did 40 years ago. I guess I'll just pay dues till I retire.

OK, You wrong. All the bail outs in the financial while the top dogs get bonuses equal to hundreds of individual union employees. What union caused that? What union caused gasoline to be so high. What union caused a pain pill in a hospital to cost so much? What union caused bottled water to cost more than gasoline? What union causes a seatbelt ticket to cost so much. Want more?

Don't know why you feel that way, but as a union member I can say I'm real glad to be part of one.

I'm with you, for a long time I fell for the line that people had a right to work without being part of a union. The whole jazz, I bought hook line and sinker. Unions have been under the gun for 20 years and look at where the economy has gone. Stock market goes up and the middle class gets poorer. Stock market goes down and the middle class gets poorer. I'm all for a little dose of union and protectionism. Nothing else seems to work or help.

Try and find out about what things were like before unions.There were 5 year old kids working for 25 cents a day in 1900 and they might be the only one in the family that had a job because if you were old and had been broke down from working since you were 5 you were old at 16 and who wants to hire an old man?If there werent unions nobody would work 40 hours or have overtime pay or paid vacations or anything.Actually people that lived on a farm had a good life compared to somebody that tried to make a living in a factory because they at least had food,most of the time people in the city could not afford to eat real good.This would be just like China.You would probably die before you were 50,no health care,there would be no middle class,just rich and slaves.You sure wouldnt live in a house like you do with a Television and computer and probably wouldnt have enough money to buy a gun and maybe not shoes or not very good ones.Think of poor people you know,and how they live,and those would be rich people in a country without ever having unions.
You think that things are bad,big companies are even going broke,well they pay those people that run a company into the ground more than you or even 200 people will ever make working their whole life in a year.Somebody that"owns"a company makes billions off of it a year,besides pays the crooks that get millions to ruin it,then the billionaire moves it overseas to have slaves work it so they can make even more billions.What did you say was wrong with unions?Seems like the unions got people doing the work more of a cut of the profit to me,I could be wrong.Rich people dont usually loose money especially when its hard times for working people.A few will loose some,and a few will loose it all,but most of them will make money off of your misery.

Unions back in the day actually meant something. Now a days they ain't worth squat. In machine shops and paper mills that are unionised, if it isn't in their job title, they won't do it. Even if it's simply tightening a bolt that is loose, they call maintnance and wait 2 hours instead of grabbing a wrench from their own tool box and fixing it in 2 minutes.

If I did that where I work, I'd be out of a job in a hurry. Unions today are lazy, and they have to fend for everyone, if they deserved to get fired or not.

Some unions are still ok, but I haven't seen any myself.

Donovan from Wisconsin

(quoted from post at 18:48:33 06/11/09) I'm with you, for a long time I fell for the line that people had a right to work without being part of a union. The whole jazz, I bought hook line and sinker. Unions have been under the gun for 20 years and look at where the economy has gone. Stock market goes up and the middle class gets poorer. Stock market goes down and the middle class gets poorer. I'm all for a little dose of union and protectionism. Nothing else seems to work or help.

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I worked a union plant for years. A super found a union guy sleeping behind a stack of crates. Yelled at him to wake up - the super got punched out. Guy got suspended for 3 days. Then got brought back, full back pay and the super was shipped to a different plant then fired. All to keep the union from striking at a critical time. Month later they struck anyway over more BS power play Sh---tuff and the plant shut down after a prolonged strike. Work all went over seas. All that union did was get in the way and protect workers that were too lazy to work or too incompetent to get the job done right.

Unions are supposed to HELP the workers. Nowadays they (and all politicians) exist to exist.

I belonged to a union while working for Phillip Chem co, and I can say that it was a rewarding experience. We made the company live up to the safety rules which kept some of us from getting killed.

I grant you that the Uaw may have gotten a bit extravagant, but I am glad I'm part of the union I'm in. The Steelworkers. Its not like most people think. We actually voted in a 5 yr pay freeze 5 yrs ago to remain competetive. We often have to "bid" our own jobs or be outsourced. We have pay ranges from 8-25$ hr. We sometimes have to "allow" entire depts to be outsourced or lose the entire company. But I don't have to worry about being fired for not being the same religion as my boss, or not being a golfer, or because he "thinks" I'm late. I won't get bypassed on the seniority list for someones stupid son in law. I get paid for working and not paid when I'm not. The salary folks like it too, because when we get araise, well then they must deserve one too.

My post is directed to the original poster not the guy above me.Calm down I was being sarcastic about the Wallmart comment.These union discussions are really not worth the time.Im in the IBEW ;no electrical contactor was ever forced to sign a union contract.They do it to make more money.IBEW is a strikeless industry.Like I said not even worth the time to type about it.

Sometimes I feel the way you do about unions. But with out them many of us would not have any pension that will come in when we retire.

The 401K plans are ok but don't expect to be able to get your money from them when you need it.

This is happening to many people at this very moment. I'm not retired yet but my 401K that I rolled over several years ago was worth $38K and now it's worth $8K. Yes I own just as many shares but the shares aren't worth any thing. So I consider the 401K plans to be pretty much worthless for what they were set up for. Reporters on TV even said if you're getting ready to retire in the next few months pull your money out of your 401K and put it in CD's.

I look at a 401K as a game you let others play, with your money. Would you keep putting money into a bank account if it didn't grow???? So why do it with a 401k plan?

My father in law use to brag about is GM stock. Now look at it!!

They have cooked the goose that laid the golden egg. They have outlived their usefullness and I fell are 90% at fault.

Gene

Its a shame, but where I work, the non union (company) people make more than the union workers, and get better benefits.
I am trying to get a job doing the same thing and pays the same but with out a union.
Never did make sense to pay someone to have a job.

The Rank and file is the union, and as long as they say me and not us this is how it's going to be

I don"t believe a person should be forced to belong to a union in order to work for a company. I also believe a union should not be allowed to represent the workers of more than one company. If the UAW had not been allowed to have a strangle hold on our domestic auto producers, they might not be broke.

Been on both sides of the fence,

Unions were good for the reasons of fair labor practices, equal opportunity,Safety issues, and a seniority factor established.

The unions were never formed to negotiate wages.

Down side of a non union job. Most applications have a clause stating "Company can let you go without cause at any time" and in the same area says " you can leave without reason at any time"

Kinda like saying "Don't let the door hit your A$$ on the way out."

Where I work the non union make more than union too! How do they do it? They kiss A$$. They go to golf outings and show up onehour early for work! They stay late for free and fetch coffee for the boss. They make up "projects" that must be done using they and five of their friends. They find an hourly position that "must" be replaced by at least three salary positions. and on and on. If one of them stops quickly the rest will go right up his a$$.

Where I work we can play with our 401-K's as much as we want, not let some one else play with them. We can chose between (I think) 16 funds and they are ranked highest risk and lowest risk. You can move your money around as much as you want between the funds. I am 31 and just started my 401 a few years ago so I did not have a whole lot in when things went to crap last year. Now that it seems to have bottomed out I am putting 75% of my money in the riskiest one they have and 25% in a mid grade one. The folks I know that are close to retirement last year about half moved all there money that had grown so fast the last five years into the safest fund and are fine, the others figured on wait'n it out and are going to have to work an extra 5 to 10 years. I can retire here in 23 years, and I know the economy goes in cycles. 18 years from now I am going to start watch'n for a good up swing and move every penny I have in my 401 into T bills. I may make more by leave'n it in play but I don't want to have a who rah like this make me work another 10 years.

Dave

trouble is, the bosses can't treat people right anymore, which is why i believe we still need unions! until we can trust our bosses, our government, etc, to do the right thing all the time, every time, unions will still be alive and well! judging from where i sit here and see what is happening with our government, that ain't happening anytime soon! maybe in 2012 we can wake up and take back our country! we sure have lost it as it stands right now!

We had an Accuride plant close here about 12 years ago because of the same deal. They went on strike, company made 3 or 4 offers all got voted down. 2/3 of production got moved to Canada, the rest is done now by people who want a job.

Dave

think about it this way. Your shares are worth less today then before, so buy more shares at a depressed price and then after the socialist pig leaves the caucasian house then the stock market will go back up.

The problems our economy is in can be traced directly to short-term thinking on the part of management, labor and government. There is plenty of blame to spread around, and you can go back over forty years. But of those three parties, only management is ultimately responsible for a company's long-term viability.

Unions have had a place in fixing unfair labor practices by bad management. Bad management is responsible for the birth of unions. Unions took their power to far in the other direction by demanding ever higher wages and benefits.

While working at an automotive I saw a worker almost beat another worker to death with a lug wrench. The union went to bat for the beater and kept his job for him. The beater even lost a civil suit and had to pay the beaten worker.

I have seen union workers get their quotas early by stacking parts in a broaching operation just so they could leave early and when caught the union would go to bat and keep their jobs. It didn't bother the union worker that he was causing the broach to break and produce poor quality parts.

The companies fought the unions by greatly increasing the plant automation in an effort to maintian or improve quality and reduce waste. Union workers leave work when quotas are reached because they either don't have time clocks or have other workers punch them out.

The pendulum of management and union abuse swings both ways. Right now unions are under pressure because they have taken advantage of a good thing and now have to compete with a more challenging work force in other parts of the world so they call it foul play. It's a story of abuse by both sides and it will go on forever.

The nnalert have been trying to bust the unions for close to 30 years. Reagan set the tone for this when he fired the air traffic controllers. I have read the history of organized labor and it started because companies wanted you to work long hours for very low pay and in unsafe working conditions. One of the problems is the global economy. We"ll never be able to compete with countries that pay low wages to there workers without lowering our standard of living which looks like that"s taking place.

Well...Unions, I belive are on their way out. Or at least down, at a rapid pace. As a Electrical Contractor, my employees could make more money on the check, and have better more STABLE benifits than through the hall. THAT IS A FACT! It all depends on the owner/boss, but I like the idea of paying the guys who are worth more, more money....and the ones who arent, out the door!

The building construction trade unions, don't seem to have the problems the manufacturing industry has, at least where I have worked. This discussion always ends up in the same direction, for/against etc., so take it with a grain of salt.

As a manager, I have dealt with all the building construction trades, mostly unionized trades, but have done a fair amount at different times that was open shop. Both can be good, and some of the open shops pay a competitive wage, provide good apprenticeship training, some are not worth a bucket of spit, and sometimes reflecting back I would prefer union trades hands down, because of the knowledge, experience, comradery and pride possessed by same. But, you do have to realize a good open shop, mangaged and operated can be just effective, so it mostly boils down to way a company is run, and the people that make up the work force.

In the construction industry, management still has plenty of power to keep things straight with union trades, some of the crap I read in these posts like where guys punch out early, have others vouch, use the union contract to protect same, is not something that would be tolerated. From my experience, most of these trouble makers will be sent down the road, they know, their B.A's know, delegates and other higher up union officials all know that this kind of crap just won't be tolerated, if they want to play games, we can too, and eventually we will circumnavigate or corner them on it, because no construction company can afford BS slack and people that are not productive, you hurt the company, you hurt yourself, it's very clear that any union contractor can be put out of business by non-productive high cost labor, so if they pull a bunch of crap, their members will sit on the bench eventually.

In short, management and labor does not need to be adversarial and at a constant stalemate in the work place. In my experience I figured out ways to work with, yet not take any crap, it's my job to get things done and do it within the parameters given the contract price we have. Unions make owners pay a premium for their buildings and other projects, so they owe it to the company they work for and those owners to be productive and do high quality work. That premise is enforced by a good manager, superintendent, foreman etc. if that becomes upside down, the contract loses money, the company suffers a loss and before you know it they are in trouble, especially smaller outfits, but I have seen large ones take some hard hits as well. I've never had a delegate or B.A, come back at me for firing someone, ever in my career, once you are a known player, they will recognize that if you keep your end of the bargain on the union contract, and one of their people does not measure up or is a problem, they will be terminated for cause period,

Many of the problems occur when contracting outfits try to screw the unions on the contract, try to cut corners and pull other crap, and I commend all the unions for standing their ground on that.

This kind of labor is high cost, for owners and contractors, the numbers on a job have to work for both, and yes unions are a bit greedy, but we as managers still make it work, and make them produce or hit the road, it cannot be any other way, if the unions had a strangle hold like they do in some manufacturing industries, construction projects would become too costly and they would root themselves right out of the business, open shops would become prevalent, even in NYC, where union construction trades are very strong, and is where I spent 15 years dealing with same.

There are always individuals that can be real pains in the @sses, I've dealt with plenty of those, things like busting chops about the benefit payments to the local, jurisdictional disputes, standby trades, like a shop steward, or teamster steward, you get jerks in those positions it will leave a bad taste in your mouth, but nonetheless they can be dealt with just the same, you don't butt heads, you negotiate the curves and keep moving, sooner or later it will get resolved, as the project must get done and it's that urgency, time being of the essence which drives this, unlike manufacturing.

Ironically, you can also have some great people in those positions, I worked with some really good union people in NYC, stewards and standby trades, by contract, those standby provisions do cost a company significantly so when a guy in that position is good about it, does some work, is helpful, cooperative, they represent the union well, vs being an obstinate clock watching bench warmer.

Somehow it all still works but it takes a good manager to do so, some individuals I've dealt with have punched a big hole in a project budget, but every time, like an operating engineer who stopped our work numerous times, causing the company to pay costly downtime for an erection crew of ironworkers. He would cite excessive wind knowing we could not measure it, and all kinds of other crap to stop work. If the benefits were not in his check, and it was called for by contract to be that way, most companies lagged behind but always paid, he stamped his feet and would not budge, mind you, not even I would tolerate a company that did not pay the bills, so I went out of the way to the hall myself and paid weekly by certified check to shut him up, also told him it ticked me off that my word was not good enough, having a solid reputation with the O.E. local and the crane outfit I did business with in regards to the bills, my ironworkers knew I stood up for them, he just could not get it through his head, if you are on my job the money is good. He finally got to me, so I said enough, called the crane outfit, sent both the cranes back and told the owner of this very large crane outfit, I do not ever want to see this operator on one of my sites ever again, if you want my business. By union rules, I had 2 of their cranes on site this guy had seniority so I could not send him back and keep the other guy. This guy was full of himself too, I'm the engineer on the job, look at me ! My only out was to cancel both cranes, and rehire same with another operator, he did not think I would do it, the GC was livid because of the lost time on the project, which I knew we could make up, it really put me in a bad spot, but I did what I had to do to get rid of this guy, just not going to pay high dollar labor for a jerk, in the end he lost, they push I push right back but I win, never even had to speak to a B.A. at the O.E. local, just did what I had to solve the problem. This is the kind of example where a union member can cause a lot of grief, and get costly, fortunately, there are ways to deal with it, if there was not, they only hurt themselves in the long run.

Unions served and still serrve a purpose- as collective bargaining associations regard work rules, safety and wages. The problem is unions are corrupt, they've become the "big business" they once fought and they have become political entities. This goes for every union I've ever looked at.

No one wants to go back to the 1800's and the sweat shops and poor houses, but unless the unions begin to get with the times they'll just make things worse.

I dont get angry and I have the blood pressure of an eighteen year old.

Unions have become a cancer to American manufacturing, They have brought down many American manufacturing companies and destroyed countless American jobs. Glad their numbers are falling. They are bad for America.

Been on both sides. Worked just as hard either way. Called discipline and dedication. So0me workers however don't know about these terms. They are giving the rest a bad rap. Master electrician for 40 years. They laughed when I would say, "If you don't have anything for me to do, then give me time off until you do." Never got sent home at all. Did all work ASAP, team concept called me JOB KILLER and OVERTIME THIEF. Union is good for safety. Remember the 40's when lot of workers had two or three fingers left on each hand or no thum bs. Remember child labor and if you had to go to bathroom, you were fired on the spot(Dodge Main, 1920.) Team concept is bad in my opinion.(GM) Why have team determine your vacation. Give you your paycheck and job assignments. Give power back to foreman. Hire and fire, too.