Follow up to my Buck Knife (china)experience

After venting here, I went on the Buck website and vented a little.
Here's my message and what I got back:

Dave

To whom it may concern....

I had a couple of Buck knives over the years and liked them but, for some reason, have been able to hold onto Old Timers longer (not that I ever worked with dishonest/forgetful people). Anyway, while on vacation (I've lived in Germany the last 20 years, I saw some nice Bucks in walmart and bought 2 Stockman versions as gifts and 1 for myself. Didn't look at them because of the Buck rep that I always knew of. Opened them yesterday and all have China stamped on the blade. WTF??? I've got too much pride in America to give an American product with China stamped on it. Guess reputation doesn't mean that much to you folks these days.
I'll be sending these back for my brother to return.

Dave Null



Dear Mr. Null,

First we want to thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts with us. We do appreciate it.

Second I want to address your concern with Buck Knives importing product from China. In words from CJ Buck because he has explained it best...

"That was a very difficult decision that the Buck family made so that we did not have to ignore price points we could not hit within our factory in San Diego California." In particular the price points that Wal-Mart wanted us to strive for.

"In 2001, following the Sept. 11th terrorist attacks, the knife industry was struck a pretty decisive blow with all the new knife regulations regarding travel, weapons at schools and govt. buildings etc.... We evaluated at that time whether our best course would be to become a marketing and design company, outsourcing all our manufacturing, or relocating our company out of a very expensive southern California and retain our manufacturing roots. We had been building valuable product from dependable materials for over 100 years and backing those products with a beyond your lifetime warranty. The Buck family made the decision to relocate to North Idaho, build a new facility and reinvigorate our manufacturing."

"We broke ground on our new facility in June 2004 and in 2005 began making knives in Idaho. It has been a tough road training about 150 people (you can quadruple that for turnover) to make knives, not to mention the personal and family stresses our move created for the 50-60 people that relocated with us.

That was a testament to our commitment to building knives in the US.

We bring in from China the entry level price points that we would not even be able to offer otherwise. They can often provide these products for less then our cost of materials.

This year our new product focus was totally on domestic product. Out of
34 new products in our catalog, only 1, a folding fillet knife, was an import. This includes two entire families of products have been redesigned for domestic production and are no longer imported.

We continue to mark our blades with country of origin, something not all our competitors do, being satisfied with only putting country of origin on the package. We find that deceptive.

We have added US flags in our website to highlight which products are US made and which are imported.

We still manufacture the vast majority of our models right here in our Post Falls, Idaho facility following the Lean Manufacturing philosophies that have made Toyota so successful. Being fast, flexible and responsive is how we create more value for our dealers and we enjoy the best reputation in our industry for shipping our orders on-time and complete. That is something people who only import can not match."

220 Americans are asking you not to relegate us to the category of not caring about reputation.

I would like to extend an offer of sending you 2 similar products comparable the ones you are returning to your brother for 2 products made right here in out factory. Please send me your shipping address and I will do so.

My email address is: [email protected]



Best Regards,

Liz Alvear
Dealer/Consumer Sales Supervisor
800-735-2825 ext124

Pretty nice of them huh???


I'm not a total a$$... When/if I get the knives, I'll ask for an invoice and pay for them

One one hand, I can see their point. But on the other hand, this is a way to open up the flood gates. In ten years from now, do you think there will only be one Chinese product in their catalog?

It was a nice response, however.

My Scout Troop presented me with a very nice shieth Buck (I think it is the "Special" a little smaller than the standard.) back in the mid-1990's. In 1997 I broke the tip and Buck knives reground the point for me. Then later the blade broke at the hilt and Buck sent me a new one.

That knife and it's predicessor have been on more than 300 nights camping and 10 wilderness fishing trips in Canada and the Rockies.

I am very pleased with their product... Issue may not be with Buck... but with WalMart. In their letter they admitted that WalMart dictated the price to them to the point they had no choice but go to China. As if WalMart said "make it in China or else..."

And do we enable this power by shopping there?

Is the real lesson "Do not shop at Walmart?" instead of "Buy American"

I used to collect pocket knives, so I have a lifetime supply of Buck, Case, and Schrade USA made knives! All brand new, from the 70's and early 80's..... I even have a couple Queen Cutlery knives, and one that's just stamped "Harley Davidson" on the tang.

So, the answer was to sell out in order to sell at walmart??????

Nothing really to be upset about I guess. Hummers will have china stamped on them pretty soon and the CIC will have the rest of us sold out by 2013.

Dave

Think about that last part, Dave.

If the Chinese were to pack up the Hummer plant and move it, or duplicate it in China, where would our military get them? I'd say CinC and Co. are so anxious to sweep all this through that they are hoping nobody notices that the bankruptcy they organized just sold off a strategic asset to some folks that we haven't always gotten along well with.

What I find ironic, is on August 23, 1958 Red China began saturation shelling and bombing of the Quemoy and Matsu Islands in the Taiwan Strait between Taiwan and Mainland China in a dispute with Nationalist China on Taiwan over the ownership and occupation of the Quemoys and Matsus. (I was there, and recieved two medals for my participation).

Anyway, the Matsu's have since become noted in sophisticated circles for producing fine cutlery. Their raw material is still remains of bombs and artillary shells lobbed over from the Mainland.

Scotty,

The Hummer brand was sold by GM, who bought the brand from AM General. AM General itself is unaffected. The military HMMWVs were made by AM General, not by GM. I don't know if they still make them or not. There are several utiilty vehicles in development as a replacement for the HMMWV.

I was given a Schrade sharp finger knife 2 years ago as a birthday present. It has made in Chine on the blade. So Buck isn't the only one.

I reckon we're going further off topic, but........I was still in school in '58 and remember the President's explanation of why Quemoy and Matsu were worth fighting over, "It's just like having a stick of salami and someone steals a tiny slice; well, that's not worth fighting over; they steal another tiny slice; well, that's not worth fighting over. Eventually, you only have a tiny slice left and that's not worth fighting over, either."
Thanks for you service; I'll bet you're one of those who still stand for the Star Spangled Banner and get a lump in your throat when the flag goes by. "Here's to us and those like us; there's damn few left".

That's better news (I think???). I expect you'd have a handle on that issue, as the same concern i have pops up in in your line of work. As long as we have control of a facility to produce the military version for as long as we need to, that's fine with me. I was only thinking back to the news some onhs back that the Hummer dealerships were just going to have H2s and H3s to sell, that the big Hummer was no longer going to be sold to the general public.

possible partial replacement for Hummer is a South African pattern mine protected light armored transport- originally built by Ford of S. Africa. The US military version would tentatively be built by Ford as they have the engineering specs for the tooling yet. A few are being tested in Iraq and maybe Afganistan now, proven design. Another good point for Ford, developer of M151 jeep replacement. RN

The company my cousin works for does some business with Wally World. The only consideration is price; as low as possible, then knock it down some more. You know what to expect if you shop there.

That's a pretty nice letter Dave. And even nicer offer to send you replacement knives. It goes to show that a letter to the right person is a powerful tool that we don't take advantage of often enough - ala our elected representatives etc.
As for cheap China knives; I was in to the Milwaukee Factory repair center about a year ago having a couple of my power tools repaired. They had an offer if you spent $75 on new tools or repairs you got a free knife. Real pretty little pen knife with the Milwaukee logo on both sides.
I carried this knife for about 9 months and then one day pulled it out of my pocket to see that it looked like this. All the tiny torx screws fell out of the thing and were lost in my pocket.
I make my living working with tools (carpenter) and have 8 or so Milwaukee power tools. I do think they're the best. But the knife sure wasn't a good move on their part as far as advertising goes. Yes it was made in China...

I appreciate that response, the thing about 9/11 and it's effects, might not be so visible to most, but sure did put a damper on traveling with a pocket knife, or similar tool, + how many have been confiscated and auctioned off, proceeds benefiting the agency that retained the now contraband items. I remember reading the news stories about sales by lot ( like boxes full of these items) on e-bay. Kind of puts a damper on the market when these items are confiscated and it's a loss to whom it was taken from. I'd be real p;ssed if I mistakenly (and it's in my pocket every day) possessed the Buck 503 I carry now, was $30.00, I'd miss the flight to be quite honest, pretty darned stubborn and pig headed about it I suppose but WTF ???? the way things are today, items of quality are all becoming antiquity, obsolete and a thing of the past, you want mine, you'll fight me for it..... well that's how I feel about it, just can't help that, when you appreciate something well made, there is no substitute. Just a material thing, but having a good sharp pocket knife or similar tool is just invaluable sometimes, like a few weeks ago, punctured a coolant line on the JD 3150 while clearing hedgerows, went and got the line, short on time forgot a utility knife, I don't like using my knife unless necessary, or abuse same by cutting harsh materials, that's why they make utility knives, but being several fields back and miles from the shop, I cut the 3/4 hose to size with it, was just rubber or whatever they're made of with nylon strands, so no big deal, sure was glad to have it in my pocket though.

Ticks me off that we lost Schrade in Ellenville NY, + so many other mfr's. Both Schrade and Buck were good quality, though I preferred Schrade on the larger foldback/lockback, you could never knock the quality of either mfr. just thought Schrade Steel was better on those lockbacks, seemed to hold an edge longer.

The positive thing is that response, I sure was glad to find a USA on the blade of that 503 and the tight tolerances of the knife, it sure seems well built and there is no excess or even minor play in the fitment of the components that make up and operate the knife, I constantly clean mine out with compressed air, as it seems to get lots of grit and fine particulates within the locking mechanism, but shows no wear from same after almost 1 year of use. I take pride in owning it, and am proud to display it, because it's well made and I'm led to believe American made, yeah it's just a personal item, sure hate not having it in my pocket, even when I used to fly all over the country for work, it went in my checked bags, my now retired my late 70's, (bought NOS in '00) Buck 505, so it did not get trashed, realizing they don't make em like that, even the script on the base of the blade, just commands respect, it's in caligraphy type font, don't care what anyone thinks, but silly little details like that just assure a buyer or owner of a fine product, that pride was taken in it's manufacture, right down the the label on the blade !

The thing with the inexpensive and loosely fitted chinese and similar knives, is you know they are junk to start with, you could care less about taking care of them as you will toss it in the trash one day, but something of good quality, upholding fine tolerances, and manufacturing processes, using materials of quality, specified by a mfr. like what the U.S. was commonly known for, you take care of it, you take pride in owning it, supporting the mfr. and you do what you can to make it last, or use it heavily in good faith and though you may have to replace it someday because of the use it gets, it will provide many years of good service long before replacement is necessary.

I've never fully understood how a mfr. can make a high quality item, yet keep sales up, stay profitable etc., because once you saturate a market with a quality item, replacement and new sales of same will drop off, but assume that with offering a full or wide product line like knives, cutlery and small tools, they make great gifts, suit other applicatuions and who can't use products like these, just need to get them marketed and visible I suppose. Look at a field dressing kit, think Schrade used to offer one, what hunter would not appreciate one of those, though not necessary to get the job done, they are nice tools to make your field dressing and similar tasks easier.

Don't mind me being long winded today, things are just completely upside down around here, good for me to think about something else right now !

Hilti offered a similar thing, though mine is still in the box, it's china made, most likely because it's a promotional give away, they probably could not afford to supply their sales people give away items like these if they were costly to manufacture. I agree, something like that does not represent the company very well. If it were quality, you would think they would be sought after and people would pay to have one, or with substantial material or tool orders, they could offer something that is congruent with the manufacturers reputation. Hilti for example, like Milwaukee was also known for quality, service and durability, and yes you paid for it, but I still thought highly of them right up to '04 when I last bought large quantities of tools and materials from them. Same was true going back to the early 80's, they had my loyalty and trust for 20 years in the commercial construction industry, and my big ole TE-75 hammer drill will attest to that as well.

Last time I was in Germany(1989), I bought several Bokers. They still available?
Buck"s response was great, hope they are able to keep going.

I won't go to wal-mart I hate the place and I don't care for most of the shoppers

Screws on pocket knives need some locktite before use.Schrade and Camillus would still be producing knives in the US if buyers hadnt switched to imports.Buying on price alone will get you screwed every time.

That's pretty nice of them. I can appreciate what they're saying. I had the same experience when I bought a Buck Stockman. My original I bought in 1973 is too valuable to me to use and loose. I might just go to the website and buy the American version.

No the point is if we as a nation continue to shop Walmart because of price then we give then the power to go the the suppliers and force them to find overseas labor.

WalMart has turned the tables on the traditional store - manuf. relationship. Before a store was viewed as a customer for the Manuf. sales staff. i.e. buy my product at my price then you can make a profet selling to the consumer.

WalMart is in the position to say I have X hundered Million customers if you the Manuf. want to sell to me I will only pay this. If you do not want to sell at this price there are lots of other companies out there who will produce the product for Walmart.

Quality is not in the equasion because we the consumer do not pass WalMart by for the better product. We keep shelling out our money for any crap.

Example is RubberMaid and Sterlite. Remember RubberMaid? A good Ohio company. When they did not follow WalMarts directive they were out and Sterlite was in. Where is RubberMaid now?

Jeff

That's great, my buddy got a similar letter from Filson. What I've
heard is that Wal Mart does not pay the manufacturer until an item
is sold, so if the item does not sell, the manufacturer loses out
rather than Wal Mart. I do hate them and only shop thee when I
really have too...which is about 2x year.