Environmental inspection of land and wildlife

JDemaris

Well-known Member
I got kind of a wierd letter in the mail today. I'm in New York, but I suspect such things happen all over the country.

My wife and I own several large rural properties. They are, more-or-less our private wildlife sancturaries. Most we bought cheap years ago, with many wetlands, beaver dams, trout streams, etc. and low taxes (so far).

So, got this letter today about a piece we own in Jefferson County New York, in the middle of the "Tug Hill Plateau." This area is often considered the 2nd most wild area of New York, with the Adirondack Park being the 1st most important.

Letter says that people from the Tug Hill Tomorrow Land Trust request permission to enter our land and do an inventory of conditions, wildlife, plantlife, water quality, etc. They then added the following that I quote:

"New York law gives landowners the right to manage rare plants and natural communities on their lands in whatever way they find appropriate."

Now I'm wondering if we'd be making a mistake letting any of these people in. That statement is absolutely nuts unless I'm missing something here.
First, New York laws rarely give the right to do anything. They prohibit, not allow in most cases. It is the absence of law that allows behavior, and the presence of law that disallows behavior.

If a property owner was free to manage such things anyway he/she desired to, deer could be shot out of season, fish could be caught out of season, beaver dams could be broken anytime, rare species of plants and wildlife destroyed on a whim, wetlands filled in, invasive species propagated, etc.

Now I'm wondering why they stuck this in the letter. I'm also wondering that if they did find something that they felt needed protection, we could wind up with restrictions put on our land.
 
time to buy those "NO TRESPASSING" signs. They will tell you what you can do once they evaluate it. No doubt in my mind!! You know the Gov't and Sierra Club know how to manage your property and will tell you so. my .02 worth gobble
 
If that outfit is connected to Fish and Wildlife. No no no! Don't let them on your land because they will find a way to get a 99 year lease on it and you pay the taxes. And they will fence it in and NO ONE is allowed in -including you. They have pulled that crap in this part of the country too many times
 
My first instinct is to deny access, too- but if you aren't doing anything that you'd be (environmentally) ashamed of on the property, you might be ahead to let them in. Obviously, they're looking for bad things you might be doing, but by letting them find out you are not, it might deflect suspicion and further action- and at least leave the impression that you're a tree hugger, too.
 
Another bonus- if its in an environmentally sensitive area, it would be virtually impossible to sell, especially in today's market. The huggers might just make you an offer you can't refuse.
 
First check with a lawyer to rep you if needed, then send letter back with note that lawyer has copy saying they can NOT go on your land- violation means trespass charge, note copy of letter to go to sherrif. Then tell them they must identify themselves properly in writing- 3 copies- 1 to you, 1 to lawyer, 1 to sherrif- with information on ownership, if they have a charity tax exemption or if they are a government agency. Require 6 references from other people they have inspected. Require a reference from state or federal attorneys office and IRS. This could be scam from someone trying to get info on property to do a fraud sale- it has happened so sherrif should be aware. If you get huffy letter back - tell them sheriff will be notified of their probably attempt at fraud. Get nasty and make them prove themselve- you may end up finding they are a front for PETA or some sue happy "eviromental" group. Give them 5 days to respond- then tell sherrif possible tresspasser may be coming to do some illegal logging or dumping of toxic waste- it has happened. Honest oufit will have all the info ready- scammers will give excuse. RN.
 
I might be inclined to deny ever getting that letter. It didn't come registered mail did it ?
 
i would send them a letter flat out refusing to allow them on your property. nothing good can become of them "inspecting " your property, regardless of their stated intentions. sure as shoot, if you let them in, you will discover some secret law that you will either lose your property, or have severe restrictions imposed on it. happened to a gravel pit near me. one of the pits was mined out and filled with water. eventually wildlife moved in and the great blue herons started nesting on the little islands in the middle of the strip mine. the gravel pit had security guards to keep everyone out. well the dnr came by, ohhh....bird sanctuary with rare and exotic birds. the forest preserve now owns the property. they got it for next to nothing.
 
This sounds like a group of concerned citizens who have no official standing. ie "do gooders" who feel they know more than you how your land should be managed.
Yes it would be a mistake to let these activists onto your property. They are looking for something endangered to gain control of your land to "protect" it (from you).
 
check this out....from their website

Role of Tug Hill Tomorrow

When a landowner donates a conservation easement to Tug Hill Tomorrow, the rights given up are essentially extinguished. They are not transferred to the organization. At this point our work really begins. Tug Hill Tomorrow, as the holder of the easement, takes on the responsibility of completing a yearly monitoring inspection of the property to ensure the terms of the easement are being upheld. It is our job to enforce the terms of the easement now and in the future. This means that the land trust must require anyone who violates the easement terms to amend their actions and restore the property to its previous condition. The land trust assumes this responsibility forever! This becomes an important function, especially after the property is sold or transferred to another landowner.
 
What are they not telling you, I'd be real leary of it, and even if I was convinced, or satisfied with their purpose, still going to be on my terms, agreed date, time, no visitation without my presence and or signing legal disclaimer, waiver etc. In short it would seem a lot simpler to reply "NO", from your atty, also citing applicable laws in regards to tresspassing, and that you would immediately prosecute the least violation. I would post the place, "Posted & Patrolled" to cover you per NYS laws, which I know from all the posts over the years, you are very well educated about. I take it this is a private activist organization, they can be trouble, and I assume DEC has nothing to do with this, you need to get that place posted. Isn't Tug Hill the snowmobilers haven, where they ride like heck, between gin mills, drink like fish, I know a lot of people from here that frequent that area, never been there myself, not into the sleds, can't imagine allowing trails through my place either, probably start a war to stop them too, assume you are not part of the trail system. That organization needs to come clean on their intent, sounds like there is more behind the scenes then they want you to know.
 
JD, I know from reading your postings over the years and our prior discussions here YOU ARE WISE TO THESE TYPE OF THINGS. Its my professional opinion this is a way for do gooders and environmental wackoes to exert their will and wishes OVER YOUR PRIVATE PROPERTY. A way to get their foot in the door and their grubbly little hands in control and restrictions on your property cuz they (abundant elitists) are wiser and smarter then us country bumpkins.

Im sure you are wise enough without the advice from lawyers like myself or anyone here NOT TO LET THEM ON YOUR PROPERTY absent any court order to do otherwise and Id post No Trespassing signs everywhere.

A couple years ago the Courts for the first time allowed the taking (similar to eminent domain for legitimate government useage) of private property for NON GOVERNMENTAL purposes (was for a private development NOT a road or bridge etc) and that may open the floodgates for environmental extremists and wackoes to take control over our private rural property to protect maybe a spotted owl or snail darter AS THEY DECIDE AND DETERMINE NOT THE LAND OWNER

The abundant progressives are determined to go down the Socialist highway with big government control and government run health care etc. I'm glad Im old enough to have seen a better America prior to the sixties s xual revolution.....

God Bless the USA

John T (Christian Conservative Fuddy Duddy)
 
The land trust buys conservation easements. In return for negotiated payments, the owner gives up the rights to do certain things with the property. The easement may be annual and renewable/cancelable or may be permanent and run with the land. It's a contract between private parties.

They are just trying to do the same thing you are, only on a larger scale and across property lines. To the extent that The Land Trust's Goals align with your own goals, this can be a win-win. If you don't intend to build houses on the land anyway, why not get paid (by them) to grant an easement in which you agree not to build any homes, in return for $$$ payments from them.

Naturally, if the easement is permanent and runs with the land you may devalue the property vis-a-vis a future resale by you. Do the payments make this worthwhile? This is your business decision to make.

What these guys apparently want to do (via the letter) is to scout the property to see if it is worth approaching you with an offer to grant them a conservation easement. They'll also gain an idea what the property is worth (to them) vis-a-vis their goals for the area. It's kind of like inspecting farm equipment prior to an auction, vs. a "blind" purchase via (say) ebay.

You can let them on the land, and if they like what they see they may offer you a pretty good business deal. You can always say no, or counter-offer some other figure.

There are ways this could go bad. Suppose the land trust finds some endangered species, or some private activity like (say) logging roads that does not meet federal or state laws. The land trust could potentially then call in government to restrict your uses of the land, getting some of what they want without paying you anything for what you'll have to give up.

If you deny them access, they may give you an offer anyway, or they may bypass yours and offer a deal for the neighboring properties. Or they may charter an airplane, scout your property at a low altitude, and gain almost as much as they would from a direct inspection.

You could write them a letter in which you deny access but indicate a willingness to talk to them, then see what they are prepared to offer you in return for access and/or future easements.
 
With me being such a Prickly guy in such situations I would be real mean in the letter and state that

A: You do not allow people to tresspass on your land....Period

B: If any of these do-Gooders come on to your land you will be ready with a fleet of lawyers + cops + the militia to get them off.

** Do not allow these A$$holes on your land **

I remember years ago on this discussion site that a guy said some college kids came up to his door and asked if they could look for turtles on his wetlands or something--He very profoundly said "NO" Get outta here. You have to be firm, a little mean and if you have too get the cops involved.
 
Send those Bums down the road no good could come from any deal like this. It will tie up your land forever so that no one could ever use it.
Walt
 
My vote is private property is still private and if I were in your place I would not let them onto the property. You could of course tell them it is because of liability. Everyone seems to understand in this day and age.

Christopher
 
Don't know about this outfit or your state. But i had a cencus person show up (posted land) and had a mapping device. I confronted them and told them to leave which they did. Here they must make an appointment or get a warrent. You may have to post it.
 
If I did not have to sign for that letter,I don't think I would have gotten that letter. If I did not get that letter I sure wouldn't respond to it. If I had to respond to that letter my answer would be no thank you.
 
No way I would let these people on my private land. Our city wanted to send a code inspector to check our land. They got a big no. If they do get on your land who knows what they will find. Stan
 
Seen some of these in various states. They want you to donate your property for conservation reasons. They do burn offs and plant the grounds back to native. Here's the site for the people you listed.
tug hill
 
What are your long term intentions for your land? If you want it to stay in its natural state in perpetuity, the only way you can possibly do that is to grant an easement, lease or deed restriction that limits the use of the property. Hanging on to it until you die only guarantees it doesn't get developed in your lifetime. Your heirs are free to do whatever they want with your property if there are no restrictions on it.

Now, if you want your land to be developed, or perhaps you would like a gravel quarry or landfill to be placed on it, then you probably do not want to talk to these folks. But if you would like to leave it natural, it's probably in your best interests to at least talk to them. Whether or not you let them on the property is your own business.
 
If they had just wrote "New York law gives landowners the right to manage their lands in whatever way they find appropriate.", then I'd blow it off. Problem is that they didn't.

Not saying that we shouldn't be good wardens of our natural resources, but there are folks with environmental agendas that want us, people gone completely, and the next thing you know someone will find an ultra-rare species of something on your land, even if they have to import and transplant it onto your property, and the next thing you know, you'll be getting a letter informing you that you still have to make payments and pay taxes, but can't even look at your land from 1000'.

I remember watching a Fox News Channel special a couple of years ago called "Who owns this country" and was sickening. Folks getting notices not to step foot on their ranches, heavy fines if do. Entire towns up in the northwest where roads were blocked off so can't get to or leave, forcing folks to abandon, literally abandon every building existing, homes, shops, all of it. We have some real whack jobs in government being bribed by whack jobs to be bigger whack jobs. The proposed Kyoto Treaty/Accord proposes to turn the 48% most western United States into 100% wilderness from Canada to Mexico. Thats insane. Insane. Nearly 1/2 of our country off limits to humans.

Its your land, good luck. I'd be loading shotguns.

Mark
 
What are your plans for your land? It's your land so it's you decision.

But, my feeling is that no good can come of letting anyone like these folks on your land. Like someone said below, it's a way to get their foot in the door for something. What if they discover that your land is the only place in the US that is home to the "12-Toed Widget?" Then you lose your land.
 
I just found out that the agency (Tug Hill Tomorrow Land Trust) that sent me the letter didn't even write it. I sent their executive director an email today and got a reply back as follows:

"I can't answer that question but I have forwarded your question on to the Natural Heritage folks who helped draft the letter. I will make sure you get a response"

So, maybe some of these people are well intentioned, and maybe not. But, to send letters out stating New York lets property owners do as they please on their own land is just plain crazy. Seems that was added to elimate any fears about over-protectionism after their visit? Subsequently, I question everything else about them.

I'm not even legally allowed to break a beaver dam on my land when my road is under three feet of water. I'll add that somehow, those dams get broken anyway - must be the beaver dam fairy sneaks in at night and does it. I am also not allowed to fill any naturally occurring wetholes anywhere on my land since it's been declared mostly protected wetlands. And, if someone came in an found some rare plant or frog, who knows what else I wouldn't be allowed to do?
I'll add that I'd like to see it stay wild, but . . . don't feel that giving out any sort of wildlife easement guarantees anything forever. All "forever" means is - until some government agency changes their minds.
My wife and I came close to signing a Federal wetlands-restoration easement a few years ago, but after finding out more about it, we chickened out.
 
This appears to be an initial mailing for an inspection to see if they would offer you some sort of easement.If you don't already know about them you should get educated quickly. There are lots of them. Federal wildlife, ASCS Conservation, and a host of others.
In a nutshell, for anywhere from 50% to 90% of the value of the land you sign up for 30 years, 99 years, or perpituity (forever). So you kind of "sell" your land to the entity, with the promise that it can't be farmed, can't be improved, or built on. But you keep title. It works wonderfully for hunting and primitive area holdings. I know one landowner w that bought a quarter section of land 10 years ago for 100,000. One year later he received 70,000 for a conservation easement. 5 year's later sold the property to a group of hunters for 160,000 dollars. That group of hunters was recently offered 250,000 for the property, and it can never be farmed!

Gordo
 
Sheesh !!! I live out here in Idaho where lots of land is wide open. This thing smells bad right from the start. To start with, I can tell from your original post that you are committed to keeping natural habitat and not into the slash & burn or plow-it-under mentality. There needs to be more of your kind in the world.
These people are fishing for an excuse to come onto your land and find some reason to keep you from using it as you wish. They essentially want your permission to come onto your private property so they can find reasons to legally take it away from you or restrict it's use. Of course, they tell you beforehand in their letter that...
New York law gives landowners the right to manage rare plants and natural communities on their lands in whatever way they find appropriate.
They want YOU to give them permission to change this. If it were my land, I'd tell them to F**K off until they came with a search warrant.
Another fishy thing is the fact that the Executive Director of the Tug Hill Land Trust didn't even know who wrote the letter. Doesn't that make you suspicious right there? Who are the "Natural Heritage folks" ?
This sounds like one of those Nigerian money schemes... too obscure to be legitimate...someone out to find a way to march onto your property and then turn things around to deny you use of it as you see fit.
It would make sense for some group to want to inventory large expanses of wild ground in order to gain data for wildlife and conservation purposes, but from what you write, this sounds like more of a crap shoot than a legitimate operation.
My vote??? NO !!!
 
It might be worth your time to call and talk to someone from where the letter is written. Here in PA the State has programs like Forest stewardship and the game commission has another called wildlife management plans where people will do a walk through and asses what your options would be to get the most from your land in accordance with what your goals are.

I had a Forest Stewardship plan and a wildlife management plan done last year at very low cost to me ($50.00) A forester was paid by the stste to walk through and do a survey of what was there and what I could do to better meet my goals for the land and forest. A wildlife biologist came out from the game commission and wrote up a wildlife management plan for me giving ideas of thing i could do to better help what wildlife was there or to encourage other species if I wanted to. No restrictions on my part or requirements to do or not do anything I wanted with the land. Good luck.
 
Amazing that they use squirrels, deer, song birds, etc. to steal away property rights. Realtors use the same "Cute precious animals" tactic to sell the property.
 
If you let them in and they find anything rare or endangered they or some government agency will likely be telling you what you can and can"t do with your land. Politely run them off.
 
I am with the rest of them. It sounds like a bunch of do gooders that want to tell you what to do. Tell them to buy some of their own ground if they want to look around.
 
Tell them NO!!!! If for no other reason than you;ll be liable for any injury they receive while on your land.
 
No.

Wonder what reaction you'd get from the folks over at www.homesteadingtoday.com? :)

--->Paul
 
The correct answer is "NO". Nothing good can come from it. A good friend and neighbor of mine lost a thousand acres in Illinois to Emminent Domain after Dept of Conservation decided they needed to have a prarie. DoC even told the family the park would be named for them, but that never happened. Do NOT let them on your property.
 
My guess is that they've ALREADY BEEN on your property and found something. Now they need your permission to be able to bring it public. Tell them to take a hike.
 

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