Employee Free Choice Act

Some of you guys have stated you like unions for such and such reasons while others have stated they do not like unions for such and such reasons.

So the question now is how do you feel about the Employee Free Choice Act that will most likely be voted on this year.

I feel it is unions last ditch effort to try and hold on and hope it is not made law. If my shop wants to go union that is fine with me. Lets hear both sides of the story and vote on it. This new law will take that vote away from us and a shop will be forced union just from 50% signing the card.

Your comments....................
Employee Free Choice Act

It is another step in selling our freedom. I have seen a lot of it in my 74 years. The average citizen is willing for someone else to do there thinking for them, Union, political party, priest etc. Sadam said the people of Iraq had to have a dictator because they were too dumb and lazy to survive without one. This country will wind up with one eventually.

Its quite simple actually, its PAYBACK TIME from O Bama to the Unions. They wanna take away this countrys sacred right of a secret ballot, how sick is that ??????? But dont bet too much they may not get by with it ......

John T

This country already has a dictator. But we are not to discuss politics here so let's chat about tractos instead. Does anyone else have a Super M?

John:

Haven't you heard, this is what is called "Change We Can Believe In". I think it sucks actually. Card Check is a radical change from the capitalist, free market, protection of individual liberties layed out 230+ years ago as a break from the socialist dictatorship abroad. Mr. external_link has designs on taking us back i'm afraid, from the great USA to the USSA if we don't wake up. 2010 is a great year for a revolt.

external_link plays his hand.

In the first place why is it important to you to have a "secret"ballot?If most working people want a union your secret ballot should not stop it,but it does unfortunately.Then if you are paying fair wages and your employees are happy you probably dont have to worry about the mean old union.If you work your employees overtime and all the time without fair pay then you deserve a union.In all the places I ever worked union or not,union was better.Try living with the thought of every day that you could get hurt and wouldnt even get a ride to the doctor from the jerk that owned the company,compared to having good health insurance and more pay besides that.To just say this new way of getting a union is bad and not even know anything about it except a biased one sided view,then hope it doesnt get passed is alright for you,but how would you like to work in your business without a union?

Let's talk tractors. All nine of my tractors and the three that I sold were made by union people and I wouldn't have it any other way. They're good honest hard working people and they know their job. Thank you for asking. rw

I didn't see anything about tractors in that link.

I love tractors and they are great escapes but I also like to discuss other things with people on this forum because the people are down to earth and reasonably intellegent. I don't have a super M but I have a Ferguson 40, an AC model CA, a Kubota B1750 and a John Deere 110TLB Industrial.

With everything else discussed in this board what does it matter if there was anything tractor in it? If you cut out everything not related to tractors in here this thing would be real small

Nope...but I have a swarm of Olivers! I think they are all union though!

Here's something to think about, does anyone have a tractor that runs on solar or electric fuel cells. Probably not, then this socialist take over effects all of us.

If they're worried about pig flatulance effecting Ozone, then you can certainly be sure that they will require carbon credit purchases for running our tractors.

Oh yes break the unions so we can work for nothing in unsafe conditions with no benifits. You can see what has happend to the meat packing industry, the unions were broken and the wages and the benifits were decreaced because packers were able to take advantage of poor imagrants coming from contries that had such poor conditions they though they were getting a great deal. Every one wants quality food that is safe but no one wants to pay for it.

Oh yes break the unions so we can work for nothing in unsafe conditions with no benifits. You can see what has happend to the meat packing industry, the unions were broken and the wages and the benifits were decreaced because packers were able to take advantage of poor imagrants coming from contries that had such poor conditions they though they were getting a great deal. Every one wants quality food that is safe but no one wants to pay for it.

Oh yes break the unions so we can work for nothing in unsafe conditions with no benifits. You can see what has happend to the meat packing industry, the unions were broken and the wages and the benifits were decreaced because packers were able to take advantage of poor imagrants coming from contries that had such poor conditions they though they were getting a great deal. Every one wants quality food that is safe but no one wants to pay for it.

Sounds like an immigration/illegal alien problem not a lack of Union problem.

How many of those union companies you worked for are still in business?

No it big business F@#$%^g the little guy dont you look at what is going on around you?

Why do some of you guys NOT think that what happens in Washington DC does NOT effect our ability to buy,sell, & operate tractors ?

My whole life has revolved around tractors to some extent. And plus we would all starve if every tractor was shut down. Lately with all the lost jobs people aren't spending money on this for a hobby like they used to either.

So I say just about everything IS RELATED to tractors and IS ON topic.

It is not "MR external_link" it is President external_link just as it was President Bush, like it or not use some manners.

Sounds like your drinking the external_link cool-aid. Sorry to hear that. I'll take it that you are not aware of trickle down economics or the Laffer Curve. Welcome to free market capitalism. It's what our country was built on.

Bush never bowed.

I remember the good old trickle down effect from your God President Reagan. I remember by the time it got down to the little guy there was noting left. I watched them sell my uncles out that had farmed their entire lives so dont give me the "Kool-Aid" speech.

Maybe he should have and we wouldnt be in the shape globaly we are in now. You know 2 enemies could shake hands or bow as they do in that county. Heck I might even shake your hand if I met you.

I have worked for both a union shop and a non union shop. I left the union shop for the non union shop because of 1.better pay 2.better benefits 3.company treats their employees like people not a liability. When we went union at the last place I worked at, things went from bad to real bad. The employer just treated us like crap. I really did not feel that I was getting my moneys worth from the union. They told us one time at contract negotiations that we needed to strike and just as we were about to do it, the union reps came out and said "Oh, by the way, this state is an at work state, so your employer can fire you for striking." And I do own a Super M.

Sorry to confuse your rant with the facts, but the Reagan years marked the longest period of peacetime prosperity in history. What are you refering to? Reagan ended the cold war, brought home our hostages, and restored our great country the day he took office after the original "external_link" Jimmy Carter screwed things up. The question is who will fix things up after Jimmy Jr. gets done. Time will tell. I'm very sorry to hear about your uncles situation but not everyone can win all the time. It's called survival of the fittest. If you rely on the government to supply all your needs you will be sorely disappointed.

We do have our love of Tractors.

trucker40
I will try to answer several questions here so do not think this is all on you.
I have a union card in my desk draw. Local 406 Operating Engineers. Yes I keep the dues up because I have a pension coming from them. But I no longer work union. It got to be you had to be a friend rather than a good worker to get the best jobs.
I now work for a non union company that our wages are controlled by the union companies to try and keep in line and find good employees. This union is the teamsters.

I am not against unions because I know my pay and benefits; even at my non union company is controlled by union shops.

I just think this new law; if it goes into effect will hurt rather than help. It will allow unions to come in the back door and get 50% cards signed and take over. No chance for the employer to give his side of the story; no discussions what so ever.
If this law was good then tell me why is the unions lobbying so hard to get it past. What is wrong with our present way of voting in a union.

Right now the way it works is 50% sign a card. Several weeks pass while the employer talks it over with employees. He may give them a raise to keep the union out. He may tell them the shop will close if the union is voted in. At least he gets to say his side of the story.
Then a vote is taken and both sides go with the vote.
There is nothing stopping any shop from going union right now with present laws in place.

So why is the unions pushing so hard to shorten the process???????????????

I heard about over the weekend. Try googling "EPA goes after farmers creating dust" and see how many hits you get. Solar powered, wind powered, diesel powered...won't matter if we can't do anything but look at them. I'd say whatever the subject matter, DC is out of control with control, and when they say dust, they include plowing fields. Them silk french panty wearing metrosexual guys and their female counterparts in DC are out of control.

This past weekend I was drivin down the road and saw a new house butted up against a field and they had this huge fence much like a snow fence except taller like that wall at the ballpark like the Boston Red Sox play in, and I personally don't have a problem with it, but the first thing through my mind is that folks move out from the city to rural or farm areas and then complain about the smells, the dust, the... I'm not saying that those folks in that house would, but try googling "EPA goes after farmers creating dust" and thats where it starts. When I was a kid, it was the new subdivision that got built after our hog pen and didn't like our hog pen. The hog pen stayed and a few hogs got shot at night while we were sleepin, but times have changed. These days DC is out of control with control and no common sense no matter the subject.

This aint the America my father or grandparents came to, legally, it aint the same America I knew a few years ago, and I pray that its still America long after I'm dead so that others can know and experience the freedoms and opportunties for growth and prosperity that I and others before me once knew. I can't for the life of me believe that our nations founders came here with the intent of one day creating the same over regulated, over taxed tyranny squashing individual creativety that they fled from. Thats not what my father was looking for when he left Poland at the end of WWII for Ellis Island, and the same for my mothers parents leaving Poland and Greece before WWII, also for Ellis Island. So what happened? When and where did it begin going awry, and when did it shift gears into hyperspeed?

Mark

You had better check your history, the hostages were returned under the Carter administration. President Reagan was just inaugurated and the credit given to Carter. What exactly was restored Don't you remember the farm crisis? Survival of the fittest? How about bankers putting the squeeze on the smaller producers to keep themselves solvent. Had nothing to due with reliance on government.

absolutely, red, green, orange, yellow,blue and grey, and any I missed, I love them all.

Minutes after Reagan was sworn in the hostages were released. How convenient. We all know that Jimmy had everything under controll or should I say Malaise. Double digit unemployment, record inflation, 20.5% interest rates, a failed rescue attempt of the hostages, serious fuel shortages, and the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Not much of a legacy.

I prefer the red belly type.

Mark:

Good post, excellent.

Did the 300 folks at the Vise-Grip plant in Nebraska say 'union YES!' I guess they have options now, Just like the company that owns them does.

My personal opinion is that if a company (or shop) is going to vote in a union it should be 66% of the workers, not 50%.

My 2 cents.

Just remember law or not the 50% that doesn't want a uniuon has the freedom to quit and find something else. Let the company try making all their products with only half of the workforce that's now costing them as much as 100% their workforce used to.

There was a time when unions were needed to get labor laws in place. But now they protect the slugs who abuse there jobs and the union protects them.

I live just North of Detolit MI so unions are a large part of life here. I have been in the I.A.M for 13 years in which i made great money in part to the union and my drive to better my self.

I have seen how people scam and cost the companys money becausethe unions protect there jobs.

I "was" in the automation tooling trade and i have to say the union was good to us ! But if you give people the choice they won"t work with out the union.


Unions get you contract raises and benfits that a company might not offer or give.


Do i support unions "Yes and No" , the companys need to have the right with out a strike and a court battle to get rid of the dead weight that cost them so much money.

We were tooling Rom 2 in Romulus MI for Dodge truck. Iwas there running afternoon shift for the company i worked for. I roll was to fix with my guys any issues that may creep up with our new tooling and teach the people how to use it.

I had a problem with a worker who just couldn"t grasp how to run the toolig at hand. I did relaize that he was drinking at lunch , there was no debating it.

I also had one of my guys coming in at mid nite smelling of booze.

After several equipment crashes i had enough with this drunk i was trying to teach. But i can"t rat him out because i"m in the union and you can"t rat on fellow union brothers.

Long story short i traded our drunk for theres and got both some time off to think about there problems and the union protect there jobs !!!!

Fire them....


The gentelmen from the plant that i had taken out was taken to the clinic ware he blew 2.5 .


I did this with out the union ever knowing i sponcered this deal.

This is just another way to drive jobs off shore.

Why can't it work both ways? Sign and your out.

A secret ballot is the backbone of the American voting system. How would you like it to have a group of thugs standing right beside the ballot box, saying Yuse votin the right there, buddy? Wese aint gonna have no problems, right? Oh, I forgot, that's the way the dimmycrat party works, never mind!

I hear you ! My wife worked at universal engineering here in Cr . She was aproduction coordinator, non union position . Considered office staff. The shop was union .The made rock crashers. She had several greivances filed on her . She moved a part off a pallet so it could be sent to machining area ,,BAM greivance filed ! The guy that was supposed to do this job was across the street at the bar having lunch . As did most of the guys there . They be drinking lunch ,,come back and run over head cranes lifting huge pieces of steel and equipment . Scary ..I was so glad when she got out of there . Union fought every attempt to penalize the guys drinking.

The problem with keeping things like this from getting passed lays with people like Trucker 40 who said, "Why do you need a secret ballot in the first place?".

You can send them to school, but that doesn"t mean the education will stick.

Wow, what a one sided OPINION . In a right to work state, whatever benefits the employees, with their union, negotiate, ALSO benefits those that don't join. The non joiners are no different than "illegal aliens" in that they enjoy the benefits at no personal sacrifice (money). to themselves. Unions aren't there to ruin an employer-just to give the employees an even shake. I take it you've NEVER worked for an employer that didn't send in witholdig taxes? Well, guess what-YOU are responsible for them. Heck, I worked (union) for an employer that didn't send in our health insurance premiums-got a letter from the insurer that coverage had ended-a full 3 months had gone by. The union-thru their requirement that the employer be BONDED, got our insurance back in place with no loss of coverage. A union wouldn't exist without a need.

"I take it you've NEVER worked for an employer that didn't send in witholdig taxes?"

I have worked a UNION job where the state and federal goverment had no record of us working there. Our Soc Sec; federal tax; state tax; that was held from our checks just vanished.
Some went to file for unemployment when they shut him down and there was no record of working so no unemployment.

The union did nothing other than refuse to work for him in the future.

I heard this same employer got jailed in Fla for insurance fraud. He went in after the big storm that hit Miami and took alot of homeowners.

I have a super M also.

Alright I see your point.I wasnt trying to say that union was the greatest thing ever though,its just better than non union in my experience.There may be jobs that are non union that are better than union,I havent seen them though.Something I read made me think you were against unions and that it was this voting law that was going to force you to go union,while at the same time reading my answer it looked like I was saying union was the only answer.What happens is some employers are not fair,some are,and unions maybe can make a marginal place be better,but just as easy could make a company fail and maybe thats alright too if it wasnt run right to start with.Unions have plenty of problems,and even are outdated like somebody is trying to say to an extent.Since I think unions help keep the country running better,to me,thinking of the future we need unions.However the unions run by the mafia,and all the other bad stuff needs adjustment to where unions are actually helpful instead of ruining business.There is plenty of things to fix about our country.One sidedly saying there need not be any unions is wrong,as is saying unions are the best thing since sliced bread,neither is true,or at least not in every circumstance,and the old mafia run deal was never right.If we are going to survive as a nation we have to fix the country.It will take all of us standing up to the educated idiot group complaining about farmers dust and big trucks on the highway.Somehow probably nothing will get fixed and we will have to have a war to be able to survive and run the country and the idiots will still not learn.I can look at examples of this in my own family as well as lots of other people too.They think because they live in a city they are more important and because they went to college smarter than dumb old working people.A lot of people that run a business are the same way,thinking they are more important than their work force.Everything is connected and has an outcome.I dont like what the country has become while at the same time destroying 75% of its unions.Im skeptical that government is going to fix anything,but unions wont come back without government help.We have to hold their feet to the fire to get them back and run right or its all over.If 50% of the people want unions to me that means 50% of the jobs ought to be union and the union ought to be good for the workers,not the union big shots and politicians.A country without unions is going to turn into China real quick,I think we can all see it coming.Its probably already too late,but you have to keep fighting,if you lay down its over for sure.I hope young people that read this stuff to learn dont get dragged astray by our comments that try and support our view,but arent really honest completely.

Some of them are,and growing.One of them moved to China.

Look around on the internet about what Reagan did to the country.Everything about Reagan is why we are in the mess we are in.Reagan ruined the country.He started the snowball rolling down the mountain,then Bush got it going faster,Clinton slowed it down but it kept going,and Bush 2 killed it off.Only a very misinformed person thinks Reagan was good for the country,and the Kool Aid group are the ones who believe in the Great Reagan lie.Reagan is an American version of Stalin.What damage Reagan did to the country,and you comrade are all for it.Farmers,business,and our way of life just about done for now because of Reagan.

Now look-you arent going to say that all of those "secret"ballots are honest are you?No everybody is not corrupt,but the ones that most likely need a union most definitely are.Why not this,everybody for a union go to one side of the parking lot,and everybody against go to the other side.Have a company person count and a union person count,or 5 from each side count.What I am getting at is the "secret" ballot is like a tax loophole and the slave drivers are never going union if its 99% for union,their secret ballot is already cast and its against the union.The argument against the new way is weak and one sided.Unions may not be the answer to everything,but keeping people from getting a union if they want it is not right either.Sooner or later things have to even out.

That can be fixed too.If they move the jobs tax their products and give the patent to a company willing to make the products in our country untaxed.

I worked the night shift in a union plant with big cranes and many times the non union foreman was passed out drunk in a locked office.Yes and he was not fired either even after being caught by his boss.After you see that stuff it turns you against drinking.Drinking is a big problem,in some cases worse than other drugs.

People rarely agree 66% on anything.It would be doubtful they could agree 66% that the sky is blue.How about this,if 40% want a union then there at least has to be a discussion about it,and if the operators of the job dont try and make things better union 6 months or some set amount of time so we dont have a situation like Wal Mart intimidating workers who want a union.

You also may notice the price of meat in the store has gone up instead of down as well.Busting the union only helped the crooks running the business and nobody else.A very good example of why there needs to be a change from the "secret"ballot which really means non existent ballot.I dont think even that will stop the slave drivers.They will move to another industry and ruin it probably.Thats probably where the people ruining the auto making industry got their ideas,watching the meat packing industry being dismantled.

Secret ballots prevent union thugs from terrorizing those opposed. Strong arm intimidation is a union hallmark, and Unions know terrorist tactics can swell their ranks. external_link is in their pocket. American manufacturing jobs will just move overseas as a result. Quick way to ruin your business is to get unionised. Just what America needs.

They do that already.

I just got my H running last night after working on it for 2 days.It was one of those China made battery cables corroded on the inside and by accident I found it when I pulled on the cable it came out.Replaced the cable and it still wouldnt crank,but the starter was jammed.Pulled it off and it looked new inside,put it back together and it worked?Put it on the tractor and cranked it up.Now I am trying to make a 3 point hitch for it.Thats going to take a while.

slave drivers are never going union if its 99% for



==================================================

Slave drivers and unions in the same sentence, you are funny as ****.

Dont you think its kind of telling when the highest paid workers in the world are members of unions. Yes thats right all professional athletes belong to a union.Ask hockey player Gordie Howe why he joined the union after playing for the Detroit Red Wings and being misled about his worth to the team by the team owner.Non union types just dont get it.

You really are hopeless Trucker, just hopeless. It's always the bosses fault, always crooked dealing unless it's YOU doing the talking. You're just a beyond hope. It always the nnalert fault, businesses fault, corporations faults, never ever the fault of the worker or union man. Open your eyes.

Don't YOU think it is kind of telling that you are saying union workers are among the highest paid workers in the world??

Does it make sense that any business manager worth their salt might try to AVOID using "the highest paid workers in the world"????

ESPECIALLY, given all the other "benefits" like sitdowns/slowdowns, sabotage, the strong-arm tactics, the mob influence, etc...


Don't you think it is kind of telling when most of the US's manufacturing is being outsourced to cheaper labor areas of the world??

Doesn't that imply to you that US companies are simply finding alternatives to being intimidated by big labor (or are being intimidated out of the U.S.A.)??

Don't you think it is telling that the unionized auto companies are the ones looking for bailout handouts and that the non-unionized ones are not??

I think the chickens (jobs) have already flown the coop (USA) and that the union's (coyote) insistence on relying on old-style strong-arm tactics in today's world is just reminding management (and the general public) everywhere why they outsourced in the first place...


I'd say some union types just aren't getting it...

But I've got a good non-union job that I earned on my own through hard work, some years of study, and attention to detail, so other than voicing my opinion, I don't really have a dog in that fight...

HH

China does that now. Identical to Fluke multimeters that don't say Fluke on them. Identical to Honda small gas engines that don't say Honda on them. Harbor Freight is a haven for that kind of knockoff copied stuff.

Mark

"Unions aren't there to ruin an employer-just to give the employees an even shake" You are joking right? bill m.

So from reading all of this I have gathered that no non-union plants have left the country nor do they have drunk,lazy workers. AM I correct in assuming this?

T-40:

You are on the wrong side of history my friend. Reagan was the undisputed best thing that happened to this country in the past 100 years. Keep in mind Bill Clinton was a lame duck for 6 of his 8 years in the White house and had very little to do with the nnalert controlled House and Senate that enacted the laws that slick willie could only sign. Similar to why we are in the mess we are now. Consider that Bush was made a lame duck in 2006 when San Fran Nan and Dirty Harry took over the country. The House and senate propose the laws and pass the laws. The president can sign or veto, that's it. As a lame duck he has little control. As i remember it we were doing really well up to 2006. But don't worry once the Conservatives take back the house and senate in 2010 we'll be on our way to recovery.Piece of advice STOP listening to Air America. Try Mark Levin.

Thank You Thank You Thank You NawlensGator

You have made my point and put it into words I could not come up with.

I am not saying I am against unions and the question was not do you like unions.
All I was saying is I think taking away the secret ballot process will be a leap in the wrong direction.

Howard H., you have some interesting concepts, none right.
In the 90s I worked for the Gov and the local idiot sups said we had to become competitive with the Chinese. The Gov doesn't work that way, they're like a bunch of independent businesses that only work one way. They were trying to get us competitive because we had to compete with civilian counter parts. We weren't competing against anybody because of how we operated; we were being sold out to the highest bidder. You probably seen the news of getting rid of all the lazy civilians and hiring lean contractors. The news never did show that there were twice as many contractors for every civil service entity gone. Some more of Cheney's crap.
Next the jobs that went overseas was because of always trying to beat the bottom line, so the same lying SOBs in these bailouts will continue to bribe Congress people and sell out American jobs. They say the jobs will never come back because the countries doing them will develop and the people will get paid too much and then they'll just move to the next cheap country.

Hey Tlak -

I can't speak to your experiences with the government, but:

"the jobs that went overseas was because of always trying to beat the bottom line"

here, you and I are saying the same thing...

No different than buying gas at the convenience store that is 25 cents cheaper per gallon of gas than the one across the street...

Pretty darn simple concept that everyone is familiar with... Of course you buy where it's cheaper.

Only in this case, the union running the more expensive place will torch your car if you DON'T buy from them...

Well - that intimidation works in the short run - until they wake up one morning and wonder why the entire neighborhood has moved to China/Taiwan/India and there are no more buyers local to them...

Then they start asking for government bailouts...


HH

Guys:

It's really simple. I have been very involved lately in moving metal finishing facilites from US and Canada to China for the primary reason that the environmental beuracracy, red tape and reglation is killing North American businesses. The new confiscitory policies of our tax law under external_link will just get worse and most businesses are making arrangements which allow them to maintain shareholder value. This move to China and India is not something new but rather a gradual process started back in the Carter Admin. with the formation of these environmental agencies and their brownshirts. Let me ask you how many steel producing companies exist in Pittsburgh, PA today. Almost none. They are primarily in China and Russia. Why? because the EPA decided that smokestack industries are killing mother earth and encouraged their shutdown. Back in the early 70's a part like a cast iron brake caliper would be made in PA and plated in PA, then delivered to MI for assembly. In the 90's most of these type of items were manufacured in China then sent to US for plating and assembly. Now the parts are being made in China, plated in China and shipped to the US for assembly. All for less than we could buy the steel for here. The US still has the edge in quality and the largest Automotive consumer market in the world. We just need to shake off the shackles put on by "EPA types" &"big labor" then we can begin another industrial revolution. Hang in there.

It always is different for every circumstance.If the nnalert ever did anything right I would give them credit.Are you trying to say all bosses are saints?Why cant you open your eyes and see whats wrong?You will not see whats wrong because you think its fine to have the government run by corporations.Whats wrong with you is not me,its you.Whats more,I am a mechanic/welder/truck driver not a psychiatrist.I actually lived through lots of bad things and some good.Even people that cannot communicate with you by language,or even sign language know when and by who they are being screwed over.You however may know,and may know who,but you wont admit it,or act like you wont admit it.Thats as far as Im going with it.Need help on a diesel motor?Maybe I can do that,try and figure out your rabid support of people that are ruining your life?Thats not me,and I would just get mad and want to fight you or something and you wont change anyway.I will tell you this much,nnalert know very well what they are doing to farmers,small business,and all of the crimes they committed.They get their cut,and they dont care about you,your family,the country,anything.They have been corrupt since the beginning and all you have to do is read a few hours and you can figure it out yourself.Now to you and anybody else that thinks like you,there is no bunch in government called nnalert that care about you or anybody except themselves.They are the party of the crooks.There may be an honest one here and there,but by the time they get national they are corrupt to the core.To be fair there are no nnalert that arent crooks any more either.nnalert and their corruption have run government so long,and to deal with them it took nnalert that were about as corrupt as the people they were dealing with to get anything done.We are suffering from a disease caused by nnalert,and more precisely Conservatives who are bought and paid for by defense contractors.I did not care at first,I always thought we need a strong defense.Since the Reagan days our whole life has gone down the drain because of all the tax money this group has stolen.nnalert are involved in this group too,but not to the extent nnalert are.Your only hope is nnalert and you have a slim chance of that helping.Things were played your way far to long,and I was vocal against it from the first day.Everybody that knows me knows this and its been that way from when I was a kid and years before the internet.I dont like anything about nnalert at all,never did.I cant stand this mentality of let the crooks run everything that nnalert have.It drags the whole country down first and now even the whole world.You are the one who needs to open your eyes.If the nnalert do something wrong you have to raise He11 with them and they might fix it because they are trying to fix it.nnalert could care less and have always been that way.We need to throw all of the national nnalert in jail.Then we need to throw most of the nnalert in jail.The few that try and run the country are stifled by the stinking mess the nnalert crap has made of it.Now these other crooks are coming at us from the other side.Maybe we can stop them,but you cant change a nnalert,his vote is highest bidder only,lie,cheat and steal.Throw 10 fits get mad and go beserk I dont care and if you were standing in front of me and 8 foot tall it would be the same.You are wrong,always have been wrong,and you wont even begin to change my mind,I already know what you are and its wrong.Also if you had read all that I wrote you would know that I didnt even say what you accuse me of.Unions are not the answer to everything.Unions are the answer to slave driving companys.I personally know a Dumba$$ worker that started a fire with a cutting torch that burned down something very big that burned for a 2 weeks and had all the fire trucks from 3 countys fighting the fire.Yes there are workers that are no good,they are on every job and even in non union jobs.Everybody is capable of being a crook.About the second week you try and run a business you start to see a little crooked dealing here,a little there,and just like that cartoon with the devil on one shoulder and the angel on the other,you are tempted.What makes the difference is if you go the wrong way it comes back and bites you.I think there was a saying like it takes 9 lies to cover the first one.Honesty is always the best policy and even then there are people like you that will not understand,and probably would not like me no matter what I did.Like Jesse Jackson said when he was running for President"I could walk on water here in front of all you reporters and tomorrow the headlines would read,Jesse cant swim".Its kind of a 51% to 49% world.If 51% of the people support you maybe you will make it if you are honest.You can be honest,and people will believe lies rather than you,or their vision of reality is warped,that doesnt mean you accept their warped view and defend it.Some do that,but its about the same thing as lying,at least to yourself.Im not wrong,what you said about me is wrong,and no amount of your running your mouth is going to change anything,Ill just get madder,so will you,and it wont accomplish anything.

Look if you listen to talk radio you have to listen to BOTH sides.Now since you can read and have the internet go to Zfacts website and look at the graph of deficit spending and instantly you can figure out what Reagan did.The article is called How We Get Out of the Great Depression II.Trickle down was steal from the poor(raise their taxes)give to the rich(borrow money and give it and stolen tax dollars to defense contractor crooks)put their cut in Swiss bank account.Reagan expanded government and did not really grasp what he was doing to the country or Reagan might have quit doing it.However the same group of idiots were in Reagans and both Bushs cabinets for the most part,bought and paid for defense contractor thieves.Try reading stuff thats not biased.Reagan is way down the line,even rated worse than Jimmy Carter and thats what he really is,a complete failure.All of that stuff about the Great Reagan is a lie.Reagan wasnt too bad as a person,likeable,but just did not have any idea of what was going on and the crooks used him for a puppet.Reagan also was a turncoat who started out as a nnalert in politics.If there had been sensible people in Reagans cabinet we might not have been dragged down in this mess like we are.Reagan just let the inmates run the assylum and it was disasterous.

T-40:

I have the advantage of being sober and living through the Nixon-Carter then Reagan years. If Reagan was for nothing else he was for smaller government and lack government intrusion. Get real. I don't subcribe to the "listen to both sides" argument. Take for example communism, I know the garbage that they spew and how misguided they are but I surely don't need to entertain their theory's in order consider my thinking to be whole. I wouldn't ask a habitual liar for the truth. You should check out the NY times best seller "Liberty & Tyrany" It's a great history book. Thanks T-40, I'm really enjoying the back and forth. By the way, did you attend Woodstock? Be honest? Or maybe you did but didn't inhale.

You spent all that time typing up that endless babble and contradicted yourself a dozen times.
Either learn to say what you mean in fewer words or get some meds. A single clear thought expressed in a few words from you would be refreshing.

FYI- I am a conservative, not a Repub. The current crop of nnalert is just nnalert lite. You on the other hand are a socialist, you just don't know it. All you ever do is whine about how tough you have it and how it's all someone elses fault. Bull. You make your life what it is. We all have runs of bad luck and tough time. Stop whining and blaming it all on those who have worked harder than you and done something with their talents. The richer employ the poorer, fact of life. Get used to it.

"Conservative"label makes me even madder and like I said no matter what I say or do you wont get it.Pull your head out of the sand where its always been and that fantasy world you think exists where Conservatives are saints and you are in heaven is bull.Doesnt exist.However your side has gone on with this crap too long and probably never will be in power again.Now any more of this and it just will degenerate into name calling and waste my time.Im just a mechanic anyway,but you cant set there and feed me a bunch of your sides propaganda and get away with it.Your side lost,they should have been thrown out years ago.My side has plenty of problems,but for now its all we have.Just remember nnalert are wrong and dont care.They lie cheat and steal from you.nnalert are not all Clinton,or abundant,or socialist.There are more nnalert registered to vote by 15% and its always been that way.You are the minority,we have to work together to fix the country.When 99% of us jump on the gun grabbing idiots it wont matter what they try to say its not going to happen.When 99% of us say we arent going for anything the crooks try to get done,its not going to happen.The nnalert would continue stealing,lying all the way to the gallows.Everybody knows it too.Thats why they dont run our government now.Now we have to get rid of the nnalert that call themselves nnalert and get a different opposition party that can grow and get strong and eliminate the crooked nnalert mess.Thats where we are,you are off in fantasy land somewhere.

Anything I can do to make you madder is a good thing in my book. I want a gov't that leaves me alone and lets me keep what I earn. You want a nanny state that caters to your needs fixes you every widdle boo-boo. That's not America. Go to Cuba or some socialist paradise, that's where you belong. All you can do call names and whine like a baby. Grow up and face facts- the gov't isn't here to take care of you!

Go getem Bret! I get tired of reading his ocular offal, dumber than a sackful of wet hair, and don't know when to quit!

Well what did I say?Name calling,and nothing getting accomplished.Sound familiar?I have never been for a"nanny state"or socialism if you are referring to the USSR as an example.The dictatorship of the USSR and China are nothing like socialism.So for you to make me mad,you first have to know what you are talking about.Lets see,you are some kid maybe 30 and think you know everything.I kind of feel sorry for you because you are so dumb.Not my problem though and thats all of the time Ill waste on you for that.Now socialism is way more common in European countrys than America.So what though?If you are a Christian like so many of you nut case "Conservatives"claim to be it says in the Bible what you are supposed to do for old people,sick,widows,and orphans.It tells how much you give your church,how much you give the priest,to shorten this up,it tells you that your civilization must do these things to survive.It even discusses giving stuff out of the field to the poor.Are you going to say God is a Socialist?Are you going to jump all over the church for giving canned goods to poor people?
Now try and stay with me here,just what is wrong with you?Did you get dropped on your head as a baby?Are you on drugs since you talk about them all the time.Do you imagine yourself some cold hearted Nazi or something?Only a real idiot is against anything I mentioned.What do you want society to do with people down on their luck,have somebody like you go put their boot on their throat until they choke to death?Is that the Conservative Bible thumping Christian way?Have you even read a Bible?Tell you what,you spend the next month reading the whole Bible,then read the New Testament over again,before you try and put any more of your drivel on here.If you still are so dumb you dont get it,find a psychiatrist and go frequently until you figure out whats wrong with you.There is another word thats supposed to go with "Conservative" its called compassionate. Where is your compassion?Maybe I dont understand just what socialism is that has you so upset.The corporate welfare from your conservative group has dragged the world down to bankruptcy.You are on the internet defending this stupidity and talking like a school bully about socialism.Duh!You need to read lots of books and articles and even then you dont know if its a lie any more or not nowdays.People that write are paid to make their side look good.You can bet that if you listen to talk radio and read and watch Fox news you are being lied to almost 100% of the time.Nobody thinks like that except misinformed people that have not done much in their life.I hate to tell you this but the real world is far worse than you can even dream of it being.Try getting sick or hurt and find out for yourself.When you find out dont blame me,its your side that has things messed up.Lots of things were better in the 1970s than now.Interest on borrowed money is lots better now,but there was way more opportunity in the 70s.Your lousy"CONSERVATIVES"HAVE BEEN IN POWER SINCE 1980.Thats how long they have screwed up the country.In the 70s there were farmers,small towns,communities,and life was hard,but it was OK.Now its all gone.Its not your fault because you didnt know,but arguing with you is getting old.Im the kind of person who helps people if I can,maybe you are too I dont know.You need to STUDY history since you dont know it.Yeah Carter blah blah,yeah oil,blah blah,yeah inflation blah blah,yeah we were screwed by both sides.However,it was the Conservatives who expanded government,raised taxes on the poor,and disrupted the fragile balance of our way of life that destroyed small towns,farming and everything else across the board.

The last bully I had to mess with I punched him in the back of his head and had to set on the steps of the school bus the rest of the way home because I did it right in front of the bus driver.I was in the 7th grade and he was in the 8th grade and probably weighed 50 pounds more than me.Whats that tell you?Im old and sick now but I would still punch you in the nose if you pushed it.Your little tirade just shows your ignorance.Educate yourself.Rich people want you to be a conservative so they can steal from you and make you pay their taxes and enslave you.They want you to be against socialism so they can further enslave you.They want you not to have any hope so you will just do what they want and not fight back.Know what?The same thing happened before and our ancestors came here to America and screwed the Indians out of it.I guess now its screw the white and black people out of it and you are helping.Just get on the right side of the fight and I will leave you alone.nnalert are far from ideal,but thats all we have to fight with,we have to make the best of it.

DIY Dave,just as I asked Bret,whats wrong with you?I guess you agree with this nonsense propaganda spewed around about socialism and the rest.Same question,what do you think should be done to poor,sick,widows and orphans,choked under your boot?You like it that our way of life has been destroyed and our country bankrupted because your side wanted to pay defense contractors and give the bankers tax dollars and steal from the poor to give to the rich?

I doubt we are much different.We want the future to be better for our kids,we want the USA to be strong and we want manufacturing and good jobs to be here in our country.So how is being on your side working for that?From what I see of it,its not working worth a D@mn and going the wrong way.If you can fix that stuff thats wrong with it would you please?Otherwise get off of my case.I might start looking for your posts to run you down and how would you like that?

Brett:

Spoken like a true American.

God Bless

T-40:

Need to make one point clear. If I don't tithe to my church this week the IRS is not going to come and haul me off to prison. Voluntary vs. Mandatory. Also, the Bible speaks very clearly and often about laziness. Check it out.

T-40, I assume that we are both human, that sums up our similarities. If you want to hit me in the back of the head, I'll turn around. As to whether you "Run down my posts" go right ahead, your tricycle bangs my shins a little, but it don't hurt much! Just like your arguments don't make much sense.

Okay T40, lets clear this up. I'm a 49 year old retired State Trooper/DOT Inspector/farmer/mechanic/businessman with 3 adopted kids in addition to our own 2 kids. Now if adopting 3 kids out the he ll hole they came from, and I arrested their parents many times, isn't compassion, just what is?

You said it best- you're old and sick. You forgot to add miserable and wrong. I've dealt with enough whiners in my life to know one when I see him. You say you aren't a socialist and yet you think Hugo Chavez is a great guy. You may be right, you're not a socialist, just a fool with a keyboard.

Im surprised you are 49.Alright,Lets put it like this,you have an opinion that Conservative is better than other forms of politics.You dont like socialism.Now you are saying that Im a nut case because of what I said about Chavez.You might find this hard to believe but All of that stuff about Conservatives you obviously have been brainwashed to believe is a load of crap.Conservative is the idea that all of us do with less so the rich have more.Is there anything that an ex cop might feel a little ripped off about from this idea?Here you are a working person voting Conservative and just the thought of that makes me mad,then you defend the lunacy that we just lived through which was the inmates running the asylum,and thats fine to an ex DOT man?Maybe you should go set in a scalehouse again for a little while and rethink your life up until now.Remember long ago when there were family farms of say 200 acres?Maybe you grew up in a small town,seems like I remember you are from Iowa.It would make sense that an ex-cop wouldnt figure out that small farms disappeared,that small towns are folding up,because of his choice to vote for rip off conservatives.It makes sense that a cop is 49 years old and still too dumb to figure out who is ruining the country but sets here on the internet calling me a fool.
It makes no difference to me what you call yourself.Call yourself conservative,Communist,nnalert,Right wing,Christian,Atheist,even nnalert.That doesnt matter,but when your side bankrupts the world,ruins family farming,ruins small town USA,and you defend it,Your name is dumb@ss,and I dont give a d@mn if you are a cop.Then you have the Im sure you think brains to call me a nut case,but you are the one who is defending the people ruining your life.Back to what I said,read the whole Bible,read the New Testament over again,pull your head out of the sand and see that you are wrong.After you get finished reading all of that,or even while doing that begin to educate yourself.It does not matter what news you read,internet,newspaper,encyclopedia,library book,from now on you dont believe anything you read.Look for both sides of the story.Being a cop dont they send you to some academy or something to try and figure out what the truth is,or are you one of them that they just order around and you do whatever they want you to without a care if its legal or not?Somehow I think you are good,but you are misled.
Im not going to say you have to think my way.I dont care what you think.Im just telling you that you are wrong.Im no nut case.Not any where close.I dont know or care how you grew up,or what you did in your life,or it doesnt even bother me that you were a cop.I wouldnt want to be a cop.Why would you?I really do mean this,if you are so brainwashed a psychiatrist might be in order.To be the way you are,misled and all,then putting this idea out here that you do,well its your choice,but its totally wrong,and its stupid as well.Whatever these people you follow call themselves,compassionate conservatives,whatever,are a big bunch of crooks.I have people in my family that call themselves nnalert.Even they know better than this bunch.They are mad about it.nnalert are some gutless weasels any more,but a few of them are still Americans,but they are fading fast.
As for the rest of your stuff you say there,I have to say it seems a little juvenile.
Cop or not,what can parents of kids do thats so bad you had to arrest them a bunch?Kill somebody?Make Meth in their house?Or are you one of these baby grabbers that seem to be all over the place?I know you said you adopted some kids,but that dont make you a saint.Also by your attitude and being misled,maybe doesnt make you bad,but it makes me wonder about you.Anybody that wants to be a cop just in my opinion,has to have at least something a little wrong with them.Power trip,control freak,feel real good about yourself,like you are more important than everybody else.I dont really care.
Ill say this,maybe you just are misinformed.Voting conservative unless you are a billionaire is stupid.You may find this hard to believe but there are lots of people that say the same thing.Lots of people say the same thing about cops.Maybe you are just a tad to high in the air you think.Maybe you need to come back down to Earth a little and try and learn something.Being wrong doesnt make you bad,or defective.Being wrong about such important things is childlike,but you have circumstances most people dont have by being a cop.
Now I dont like communism any more than anybody else.Chavez however if he is a communist called Bush the Devil and I happen to agree with him.
Did it ever cross your mind why I suggested reading the Bible?Im not going to lay a bunch of that stuff on you that some do.There is a reason for civilization that survived to still be around.They followed a way of life.It deserves study,and in studying it you can learn lots of other lessons as well.I prefer the English version myself,it just makes more sense to me.
Maybe you have read from time to time,or do you just let somebody tell you what it says?Maybe you read two or three paragraphs in church and thought that would be good?It doesnt matter,just because you adopted some kids does not mean you have compassion,even if you do.
What is your definition of a whiner?Anybody that doesnt agree with you and maybe is a little more informed is a whiner?Or you dont want to get beat up so you try to change the subject?Typical nnalert behavior.
I went back and read some of this stuff and I dont even like me,so who could blame you if you dont.Sooner or later you will wake up maybe.If not so what?You arent getting anywhere with your name calling and talking like a kid,and your stupidity or whatever it is thats wrong with you is keeping you from learning.
Now you probably are going to pick at anything you can,like the little snide comments about Chavez,so you think you are winning.Yeah go on and think that.Ive wasted all the time Im going to on you.

What can parents of kids do that's so bad you had to arrest them"? How about beating and starving the kids and letting them live in filth and sexually abusing and raping them? Does that qualify in your book? As for my profession, I got into it to help people but I guess you wouldn't under stand that.

So you re-read all this and you don't even like yourself? You have some issue mister. I didn't realize it till now. Not like this. You have my sympathies, but you need some help.

Yeah well I didnt know what to think of you when you said all of that stuff,plus you were a cop.That automatically makes me kind of leery.I dont know you at all.
What I was going to say,and it got long and I felt I was wasting my time anyway,but if you read all of that Bible and you can find where it says to be like you are,defending a crook who helped set things up to starve people in other countrys over fuel prices,besides every thing else,then you are welcome to think that way.Helping others is part of that as you know.Since I cant remember any time in the past that a Billion people faced starvation because of an American President and his cronies he helped in the energy markets,I cant see why you find that worthy of support?
You sound like you are all right.Ive seen cops from alright to insane.How do I know what you are talking about,for all I know you were the one abusing?Ive seen plenty of power tripping cops arresting people including me.Excuse me if I misread your answer but I dont read minds very good.I more or less wanted you to leave me alone since I didnt know what you were about and not sure I wanted to know any more.
There is no reason other than pure greed for our country to be where it is now.Yeah nnalert did it.Im mad at nnalert for being too lame to stop it.
Then you have those freedom imposing bills passed by the nnalert congress in 2002 I think it was.Being a cop you are for that?
Sorry too much stuff doesnt add up for you to say you are a Conservative and all this is wrong and if I tried to cover even part of the crimes it would be pages.Sure there is lots of propaganda out there to keep it covered up,but there is another side.Its awfully lame to just go along with a bunch of crooks like that.Somebody 49 ought to know better.

Don't even bother T40. You have an issue and you need help, professional help.