Magnet motors

Here's hoping everyone will live long enough to see the day when tractors and cars can use permanent magnets instead of fuel to make them go. To Buickanddeere, In the last discussion you stated that a post holding up a beam is doing no work. Let's do a little experiment. Say that beam weighs about 150 pounds and we replace that post with you. After an hour or two, we will all be standing around bone dry but you will be dripping with sweat. Are you still going to say you were doing no work? Let me tell you why you are sweating. Your body was using energy to WORK against the FORCE of gravity! How is it that dumb post can do the same thing (hold up that beam) without using energy?

Whenever you have energy being used, you have heat. Does that post create any heat?

Can't argue with logic like that!

<font size = 0>I mean, you could, but it won't do any good</font>

A "permanent magnet" doesnt produce any energy I was aware of, there is, however, a magnetic field surrounding it. Now if you pass (or rotate etc) a coil of wire through that permanent magnetic field, a voltage is unduced into the coil, but it will take some input energy of some sort to keep that coil rotating and then sure you can extract energy out of that coil butttttttttttt the energy out is less then the energy in (it took to keep it rotating inside the field) because there are friction and heat losses..

A few other helpful tidbits which just happen to be related to the laws of physics and thermodynamics which might help educate.

YOU CAN NOT CREATE OR DESTROY ENERGY, ONLY CHANGE ITS FORM

WORK = FORCE X DISTANCE (force alone doesnt equal work) DISCLAIMER its been too many moons since I was an engineering student so dont hold me to this now lol but its my best recollection

So sure we may have a tractor powered by permanent magnets (a PM Motor) that create the field in which an armature rotates buttttttttt its gonna take some energy INPUT into the armature to make it spin so wehres that coming from HMMMMM ??? It could be from a gas engine driving a generator or an electtrochemical energy storage device i.e. a battery but either requires ENERGY

Hey its impossible to explain complex physics and electrical theory in a paragraph here to a lay person that takes volumes of book and years of study to understand so just take it for now that YOU CANT CREATE OR DESTORY ENERGY (until yall get into that atom splitting stuff maybe?) so yall have fun n take care now and good luck on that "perpetual motion machine"

Best wishes, fun chat

John T

Generates force but not work. Magnet is no different than a rock in that way. Just cause a rock weighs something doesn't mean its doing work. Its just attracted to the earth by gravity. Throw it off a cliff and let it fall and it can do some work for you!

I agree, if that rock or magnet rock (lodestone I believe) is settin up on top a mountain it possesses POTENTIAL ENERGY which can be converted to KINETIC ENERGY ( 1/2 MV squared) if you toss it down the hill

John T

that post you speak did not become a post with out a lot of engery input........ the sun.

Why isn't the post being consumed or have a power supply.
If it was performing work it would to be powered, getting warm or loosing weight and getting warm.

Your education of the very fundamental basics of physics is so lacking. It's similar to expecting a person to read the New York Times while knowing only vowels and no consonants.

I didn't read ahead. You beat me to it with that clear example using the post.

if you remove the post and put in a hydraulic cly. in its place then it will take energy to do the same work.

My recollection was indeed correct (see my post below) Work DOES = Force x Distance. The beam isnt moved SO THERES NO WORK ACCOMPLISHED.

Again DO NOT FEEL BAD IF YOU CANT COMPREHEND THIS, it can take years of study and reading volumes of books to get even close to understanding physics and the principles of Conservation of Energy and why a perpetual motion machine can NOT function (I"m an engineerging graduate with years of experience n still cant comprehend what an expert physicist can, so how could a lay person??) so dont feel a bit bad.

By the way, it took WORK (Force x Distance) to get that heavy beam (or Buick man) on top of that post and it now has POTENTIAL ENERGY which can be converted to KINETIC ENERGY (1/2 MV squared) if it drops off to the ground buttttttttt in the meantime NO WORK IS BEING DONE DUE TO THE FACT ITS JUST SITTIN THERE endowed with potential Energy cuz farmer Billy Bob DID WORK WHEN HE MOVED IT A DISTANCE TO PUT IT THERE.

Its IMPOSSIBLE to explain here in a sentence what it takes years to study so best wishes in your endeavors n good luck. We all do our best to help here but we simply CANT provide an education on such a complex subject here on a Tractor Forum

John T

I expect that to happen a lot sooner than you think. However I don't know that it will happen with permanent magnet motors, any electric motor could be the engine. With some capacitors we can tune the coils in the motor to resonance and dramatically improve efficiency. And we can pull some energy from the air with a tall antenna and an oscillator. Think a crystal radio.

It sure looks promising anyway.

The hydraulic jack sitting stationary does no work. Same as the wooden or steel post.

There is something gravely wrong with the education system. When people are leaving the institutions without a grasp of the basics and fundamentals.

That would be the potential energy of the post as heat. Should the post be burned.
Has absolutely zero to do with holding a static load.

Are you saying perpetual motion devices work?
Are you saying a beam holding a stationary load is working?
Are you saying there is work being performed by a magnet or gravity on a stationary object.
Unless those perpetual motion dreamers can get around a simple fundamental mathematic problem. The perpetual motion would work.
Take the number zero. What number times zero will equal something?
0 X ? number = 1
Lets see you make that equation work.

John the earth rotates in a magnetic field and salt water is a pretty good conductor, wonder where the tap is? should be enough for everyone and free.. Just a thought I have had for a while thought I would share it, seems we live on a big generator.

Basics

The water and magnetic field turn together at the same speed as the earth's rotation.
A generator is a conductor cutting through magnetic lines of force.
No cutting = no power.

I agree.

"YOU CAN NOT CREATE OR DESTROY ENERGY, ONLY CHANGE ITS FORM"

I don"t know if that holds entirely true for energy, but it certainly does for Matter. Energy can be expended, yet Matter cannot..only changed in form.

There is nothing on Earth...with the exception of asteroids from Outer Space, that has not always been here. Every atom of Matter from the beginning, is still here and, always shall be.... excepting what man has jettisoned in Outer Space. Even so, no matter has escaped the Universe.

It doesn"t require a Ph.D to understand many of the Laws of Physics and Thermodynamics, just an open and curious mind. And the key to understanding all of this is; Applied Mathematics....number crunching on a grand scale. It took centuries to discover the values of the required integers to solve the equations...but once discovered....hehe, it all unfolds rather easily.

No, I mean that you arguing with a feller that believes this kinda stuff isn't gonna get you anywhere.

Glad to hear that.

OK so real Perpetual motion is not within our reach with known technology (but remember quantum physics is changing a lot of what PHDs once thought was law), but what would you consider the ocean tide? Is it not unlike the sun light? always there (at least in the concepts of a limited life span being like ourselves) Should we not harness the motion of the tide (which is in pratical terms perpetual) and convert that to power?

Tidal and wave power will work for a price. Problem is the ocean beats equipment to pieces. Plus the bunny huggers/professional whiners want clean power but they don't want to affect Mother Nature either. Wind is intermittent. Solar is either only on sunny days. Or in outer space which requires a very long extension cord.
Known or future technology. All objects have mass and inertia. Until you can make something into nothing and still have something. Even then at best one could break even. No way to obtain a surplus even if that was achieved.
It's no different than filling a 100gallon tank with 100 gallons of diesel fuel. Then expecting to pump 150 gallons of fuel from that 100 gallon tank with a "better pump".

I agree with that.In 40 years of power plant work. I have never seen power produced by an idle generator. No movement through the field no power.