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Deep V ripping clay hard pan

B

buickanddeere

Well-known Member
Any words of wisdom before venturing into my clay fields which are hard panned? Never tried it before.
The plan is to take a JD 22B single shank V ripper with a 33" shank, 10" laser tip and mole ball. Hook it to the JD 1640 with the loader removed.
Then try to get some natural drainage happening in the soil And some root penetration.
Right now the only way rain and snow melt dry off. Is to evaporate with the wind and sun. Moisture does not go down.
 
My gut feeling is you'll be a bit shy on horsepower, but give it a shot. Depends on how deep you go.
 
To do it right you need to go one direction then go crossways. I did all my cotton ground this way every two years. You may need a little more tractor though!
Good luck
 
You might still have frost in the ground that prevents moisture from going down. I've got a similar problem. Where the ground has no water it's soft for about 5 inches and then still frozen. Where there is standing water it seems like the ground is harder underneath. Dave
 
Best thing you'll ever do. I've been doing that with a Brillion subsoiler minus mole ball for many years. Possible problem with doing it in the spring is that the soil will be too wet and you'll get a "plastic effect" rather than the nice fracturing that tilling in dry soil will do. If the soil is too wet you could end up with concrete like slots. Brillion recommends 20-40 drawbar HP per shank. Mine has three shanks and I pull it with a 57 DB HP (Neb rating) MFWD tractor that weighs in at 7000 lbs field ready. I pull in 3rd gear @ 3 1/2 mph. The first time over some 7 years ago was more difficult. Couldn't go quite as deep as I wanted. Now I go 17-18 inches deep anywhere. Shanks on 30" centers. I go over once in the fall leaving a nice rough finish. Soil mellows over winter and I then do my secondary tillage in the spring. One pass with whatever is appropriate, i.e. field cultivator, disc, springtooth, pulvimulcher, etc. Just to smooth and kill weeds. Holds down fuel use and time/expense, etc. Best crops I've ever had. I have a lot of red clay nine feet deep thanks to the last glacier, speaking of which, it feels like another one is coming. (;>))
 
Serious question. What is a 10 inch laser tip and a mole ball ? What caused the hardpan ? In my part of the country it disappeared when plows did.
 
I did the same thing to all my pastures just a few weeks ago, only I used a 4410 MFWD and didn't have the mole ball. I ran it as deep as the three point would allow it and the tractor slipped very little.
 
The literature I have on that 22B ripper states that it will go down as deep as 22". That's what I recommend you do, if possible.
 
Here is what I have learned.

Initially I wanted to try subsoiling to see what it would do for crops. I bought a one shank 3 point hitch unit and did maybe 5 acres. Takes for ever!!! I think the thing is at least 24" long and I probably ran it 14" - 16" deep. Took all of 65 horse power with a weighted tractor. That was probably too deep. I thought there was some advantage with drainage and water uptake. The next year I bought a 3 shank on 38" spacings. Pull it with a 130 horse power tractor. Traction is more of an issue than power. Certainly a fall tool. In my area the key is getting the water into the ground for plant moisture during the year. Secondly the moisture that goes into the ground in the fall freezes and further expands / lifts the soil. I did get some of my higher crop yields during the years I subsoiled. I think I got the best response on the tighter clay soils. So my plan is to do the clay knobs every other year. Some places the tractor will just come to a STOP!!! I have hit places where it just gets stuck in the ground and pulls the front end right up. Each time you subsoil it will pull easier. You do have to be careful of shallow tile lines. The only other problems I see is additional time and fuel and lastly the ground can get so loose after winter freeze that the nitrogen nurse tanks tend to sink in and leave deeper tracks. I don't want tracks in no - till so I haven't subsoiled in a couple of years. I have heard of the moles and how people have dramatically improved their soils. Good luck.
 
We always subsoiled in the fall when the ground was dry and hard. You need to get down under the hard pan, and the susoiler feet/wings will shatter the pan by lifting and fracturing. Our hard pan was 10"-14"... just below plough depth. We subsoiled once every four years. Mole ploughing was done in the spring, deeper than the subsoiler, to form moles drains above the tile. The mole would not bust the hard pan like a subsoiler.
Chris
 
Mole Ball - An egg-shaped device pulled behind the tooth of a subsoil plow to open drainage passages.

Laser Tip - ?
 

You may very well be further ahead to find yourself someone locally with a 4 bottom disc ripper and some big HP... Pay them to do it...
 
LaserTip is JD's trade name for the chisel point that bolts onto the shank. They are made with "wings" up to 10" wide.
 
B&D,
Probably the best thing you can do for your soil !!! Then plant some alfalfa or other deep rooting crop. Why take the loader off ? With a one shank power might not be a problem but if sunk in traction could be.
 
The 1640 is only 2WD. That 240 loader is awful heavy handing out over the front end.Traction for tillage is much improved with the loader removed.
For what I've sunk into the thing. I may have well bought a new 4WD 25 years newer. Clutch, rear rims, rear tubes, every hydraulic hose, batteries,lights, instruments,belt, dampener, alternator,diff lock, seat, water pump, front tires, injector service one of these days. And every other nickel and dime thing that adds up.
At least the loader only takes 5 minutes to remove and less than 10 to re-install.
 
'Just curious if these were existing pastures that you left in pasture after you subsoiled them? How rough did the ripper leave the surface?
 
B&D.

I do the same thing before I plant all my tree rows. I was told you want to subsoil in the fall, in the spring you will slice the hardpan, but not break it up.

In the fall you can watch the ground "errupt" as it shatters the hardpan. The the water gets down and freezes through the winter breaking it up even more.

Now I am just a rookie, someone else could explain it better I am sure.

Now for HP. I run my 3930 4wd with one shank at 20 inches and it is crying the whole way. I bought a 9 shank, left 3 on and pull it with AC7000 (105HP) does much better.

I think your 1640 might be huffing just a bit like my 3930 does. I leave my loader on, rear tires are loaded, no traction problems. When that tooth really bites it will stop the tractor like I just threw an anchor out.

Hopefully ripper is spring loaded or shear pinned. I have hooked 2 rocks that I am amazed didn't bust something on the tractor or the ripper.

Rick
 
You have an older tractor that needed lots of repairs and therefore everyone else's will. Clutches and hyd. hoses and tires don't last forever. You also think everyone has money to buy a new tractor and you're driving one that's at least 25 years old. What is even more astonishing is how much you praise mother Deere after all the money you've spent on a German JD that was higher priced in the first place. MY 65 MF has the original gauges, generator, rims etc. and they're all good. What is it again that's so good about JD's over other brands? I thought you never had to do any repairs on a JD and they were worth the extra money. I guess you just proved they aren't worth any more money. Oh, if your pulling with the 3 point, the loader will help because the front end will become light and the weight will transfer to the rear wheels. The same way front weights help. Dave
 
Just kind of assumed 4WD, still think (fulcrum/lever principle) that the loader may be some benefit to traction when that ripper digs in.
 
Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill in order to prove your personal agenda.
You sound like the gun haters who want to ban every civilian's firearm when any little thing goes wrong.
 
Ordered the 22B last spring or 2008 with intentions of using it in the fall or early winter of 2008 before heavy snow fall.
The unit didn't showup until early this year, too late for pre-frost ripping with dry ground.
I was hopping to go on a tear with it anyways this spring before planting. Instead of waiting until after harvest.
 
No. I'm just stating facts that I'm sure if you go back and look are correct. I don't have an agenda and think anyone else would come to the same conclusion. You were all over people about back feeding with a generator and other electrical related posts. Most people that don't know are asking in order to find out the correct answer. It's not correct to lump all older tractors together as money pits and you have told people not to bother with a used tractor and spend a pile more on a new one. Odd you'd say that when you're using a 25 year old tractor yourself. I bet JD parts don't come cheap either. Maybe it's better to just say that you've had to spend a lot on your tractor? I've had to do some work on my tractor like everybody else but it was way cheaper than buying a new one and still runs like new. Part of the problem with the economy is that a lot people want to have the newest latest and greatest toys just to keep up with their neighbors, but can't afford it and don't need it in the first place. Dave
 
Long term. you may want to look into planting 'tiger radishes" (I think that is what they are called. I have heard of some guys planting them to help with soil aeration. Plant after wheat? I don't know where you are at.
 

B & D ,
Back a few years when I was a bit younger and
somewhere in the middle 1950's ,I pulled a JD
Killefer 20 A ( a single shank on steel wheels)
with a Cletrac crawler . It would handle it to
about 20 inches ,later years I bought a 730 case
and it would handle it to about 18 ,then would
run out of traction. The 20A had an extra long
shank from a large IH tool bar model and could
go well past 24 in , but needed two tractors or
cletrac and 730.
I did drain lines for the milkhouse wash water
with both tractors on it with the mole attached.
I also drained wet areas that tractor would
not go thru by using long cable across soft
and steering with a snatch block on the cable
and another long cable cross ways to another
tractor. Always start at the lowest point(a
large dug hole or a creek bank) and travel up
the grade , then the water will run out the
low point.
20 A was built in the 40's ,it was adj depth
and was ground drive lift for the wheels.I still
have it and one of my customers used it last
fall to drain some low land.
I think you may need some more tractor to
pull yours, from the literature for the 20 A
suggested HP is near 80hp and with mole or
wings add some more and by all means put some
fluid in the tires . he he

george
 
Ever hear tell of "pay me now or pay me later". I'm warning prospective owners of old stuff that they are going to pay anyways.
I bought this tractor because it was my Uncle's.Family honour and respect thing you know when he offered it.
You seem all wound up and jealous about money.Sure you are not MFpoor as well who is on here crying about money all the time?
If you want more money, make more money. You are here is one of the most opportunist and wealthy countries in the world. If you worked and hard and as smart as you complain. You could afford a new tractor.
 

135 Fan,
I agree with you. One must also notice buickanddeere promotes new JD MFWD for loader application as a must have but owns an older 2wd with a loader. It's a lot easier to suggest other people spend money than spend one's own money.
 

Well said Dave,

If it weren't for his engineering degree
and the place where he works, he wouldn't be in
position to have all the nice toys and take all
the hunting trips.If he were dairy farming he
would be tied to the cows tail 7 days a week
with no chance of a vacation,been there and done
it,shipped milk when the price was 3.50/cwt.
We have a nuk plant local and all the guys
have all the nice toys, but when the toys break
they come to us in the real world for repairs.
I have an engineering degree, but try to not
let it get in the way of have conversations with
those that don't have one.

george
 
Old stuff can cost a lot but there is a lot of really good used tractors and equipment available at a fraction of new cost. A lot of people are very wealthy because they don't spend all their money buying new vehicles and equipment all the time. A lot of farmers went belly up because they had to have all new equipment and the economy went south. It seems contradictory that you would tell people to buy new when you're using an older tractor yourself, from a relative or not. There is nothing wrong with declining to buy from a relative. More often than not it causes bigger problems. Did your uncle help pay for any repairs you did? Did you pay the going price or did you expect a better deal? Did you pay too much? Family honour and respect as you call it? It's the same reason a lot of business owners don't hire relatives, it just leads to problems. My dad used to call them sobs, sons of the boss. Whether I could afford a new tractor or not, I don't need a new one and can't justify spending all the money on a new one when I'm not using it full time. When I did landscaping, I bought a brand new skid steer, but after a few years it needed some repairs just like anything else. Not many people are going to purchase new equipment every 3 years in order to avoid repair costs. If you have all this money burning a hole in your pocket, why didn't you park your uncles tractor and buy a new one anyway? Look how much you would have saved in repairs. All I was ever trying to say is that not all older equipment is a money pit. There is a lot of older low hour well maintained tractors that could be rebuilt 3 or 4 times over for the price of a comparable new one. I found an add for just the tractor for you. A JD with only 792 hours and looks like new but is a 1969 2520 diesel with triple hydraulics. The price is only $42,500! In this case I think it would make more sense to buy new unless you were a collector or had too much money. The 135 I have has less than $8,000 spent on it since about 1980. This includes the original price, a like new but used loader, a cab, new clutch, new tires and all parts needed. Not too bad for owning it close to 30 years. A new equivelant tractor would be $40,000 or more. You can do a lot of repairs for that kind of money and bigger tractors cost even more. I'm very happy with my older tractor and am sorry your tractor has been a money pit. I think it all depends on the tractor in question. That's why this forum is good. People can ask what to look for and what to avoid. If you want a real money pit, buy a crawler. Nothing is cheap on them. Dave
 
Thanks George. I'm just a lowly welder but did take my apprenticeship early enough that I got to try O/A welding and brazing of cast iron. It frustrates me when I see misinformation or wrong information and can only imagine how confusing it is for people that don't know. I try to explain all my answers so that the lay person understands them but often someone will disagree but not have anything to back it up. Dave
 
No again. And how did that work out buying your uncles tractor? Were you forced to buy it? Did you buy it sight unseen? You tell people one thing and do something different yourself. I will make sure to avoid used JD tractors though in case I need another tractor. Seems they need a lot of expensive reapairs. Dave
 
Quote" I bet JD parts don't come cheap either, just say that you've had to spend a lot on your tractor?, but it was way cheaper,but can't afford it and don't need it in the first place,available at a fraction of new cost,A lot of people are very wealthy because they don't spend all their money,help pay for any repairs,Did you pay the going price, expect a better deal? Did you pay too much?,Whether I could afford,can't justify spending all the money If you have all this money,Look how much you would have saved in repairs.,The price is only $42,500!,or had too much money,The 135 I have has less than $8,000 spent on it,would be $40,000 or more,a lot of repairs for that kind of money,bigger tractors cost even more,your tractor has been a money pit,If you want a real money pit, buy a crawler,Seems they need a lot of expensive repairs. Dave" Un quote

Dave you are fixated with and think of mostly money.As the list quotes from you past posts indicate. Money what you primarly talk about, more than anybody else.
It's not healthy to let the love of money be the center point of your life.The love of money breeds jealousy and hatred.

b&d
 
I'm not fixated on money. I'm like most people and try to spend my money wisely. You have been telling people to spend a lot of money buying a new tractor and there are a lot of good used ones available that won't need anything done on them. With all the used equipment available it shouldn't be too hard to find something in really good condition if you take the time to look. Your quote reads a lot different than what I wrote. You can read what ever you want into it. I was pointing out that my used tractor has been very economical. Yours has nickel and dimed you. That doesn't mean everyone that buys a used tractor will be nickel and dimed. This is an older tractor forum hence the name Yesterdays Tractor. There are thousands of people on here that are more than happy with their older tractors. Most prefer them. People have suspected you of working for the JD promotions department. JD makes a good product but I can't understand why you bleed green after your JD has nickel and dimed you. In your case buying a used JD was not a wise decision. Hope the relationship with your uncle is OK. Sounds like you got the short end of the stick. Anyone who doesn't watch their spending, especially now, could end up in trouble. I would love to have a nice new tractor with all the bells and whistles but 1. I don't need it, 2. It wouldn't do any better of a job than the one I have now. It might have nicer creature comforts but won't do the jobs I do any better 3. It doesn't make any sense to have so much tied up in a tractor that isn't used for your main source of income. I have learned the hard way not to let other people run my equipment though. Spent $7000 rebuilding the engine in my Cat because a friend put a branch through the oil pan and he's usually a careful operator. That could have happened to a new machine as well. Good thing I wasn't paying off $150,000 for a new Cat or I wouldn't have been able to fix it. Money doesn't grow on trees and there's nothing wrong with being careful how you spend it, whether you're Donald nnalert or work for minumum wage. I work too hard for my money to waste it on things I don't need. I do wish I had your money, then I could get a whole fleet of new machines, whether I needed them or not. You got stung on a used tractor and I didn't. Why can't you just accept that. If you don't think about money, why do you care that your tractor has nickel and dimed you? What would you do if your job was eliminated? Lots of well paid people in long term positions have lost their jobs. If they never thought that, that would happen and spent foolishly, they have no one else to blame. It just makes sense. I'm tired. Good luck with your JD. Dave
 
JD is too smart to hire a "shrill" on the site.
You are stretching with your agenda again. It's no secret you have a money hangup. And that your money hangup taints your prospective to JD equipment. And taints your relations those people in the upper income bracket. Jealousy is spoken of and warned about in the bible. So is pride, one is as bad as the other.Some people are even proud of being poor, if one could figure that one out.........
Any of the repairs done to the 1640 are all normal wear and tear items for any machine of it's age and hours.The tractor and loader were purchased at market book value.
If I had not performed the bulk of the work myself. The cost of shop repairs would have pushed the total price into the region. Where a new/almost new machine would have to be considered in the grand scheme of things. In your figures you conveniently leave out claims for depreciation. And actual market value/trade price. Or loss of productive time with the machine. Let alone personal time spent. If your time is worth nothing, then you are worth nothing.
 
I could sell my tractor and recover about 90% of what I have in it. I haven't lost a lot of productive time. Rims are normal wear and tear? You were the one complaining that your tractor was nickel and diming you, not me. Seems like your the one more concerned with money. Lets not even bring the bible into it. As George Carlin stated, "more people have been killed in the name of religion than any other cause!" Better to be happy and poor than rich and miserable. You're looking for excuses to justify your contradictions. At least I'm consistant with my comments. Dave
 
Consistent with an irrational dislike for Deere, Deere owners and people in the upper income bracket.Consistent in referring to money more often that anybody else here. Trucker40 does run serious competition.
 
I would like to add this, all those repairs didn't happen at the same time , that is called "cost of ownership". If we all totaled up the cost of repairs on our 50-80 year old tractors in all of those 80 years, would we all be better off buying a new one? SC Case new =$900 4 Valve jobs = $500, 2 complete overhauls =$1500, 3 sets tires =$850,due for 4th set @$850 1 Clutch =$90, 1battery every 3 years by 60 years = $1000. New 25 horse Case/IH/NH/Fiat =$31,000.
 
If you actually read my post, I said JD makes a good product. You make it sound like no other manufacturer has anything that can compete. What nobody likes is someone who brags about how much money they make. How do you know I don't have a lot of money, maybe I have more than you. Just because you are fortunate it is wrong to act like your word is the gospel and talk down to other people. You're so quick to spend other peoples money and tell them what to do with it, yet you bought a used JD tractor that in your own words, not mine, has nickel and dimed you. Considering that there are a lot of farmers on this forum, I think they'd take great exception to you telling them how to spend their money in tough economic times. Perhaps we should have a poll and ask them. The people on here can be the ones to decide if they should listen to someone else telling them how to spend their hard earned money or if they can decide for themselfs. There's a pretty smart bunch of people on here with a lot more experience with tractors and equipment than you or I have. I think this is the only way to come to any kind of conclusion in this matter. I hope you're happy with your tractor. I'm happy with mine. Dave
 
I've told people to check the dealer to obtain the new price of a piece of equipment. In order to get a fair idea of market price for used.
I've also pointed out that people have to consider what the used price and what maintenance is going to cost them. Many of these prospective owners would have to hire out shop labour. The price of labour and parts for a few minor fix it jobs. Will put the price of the used tractor into the range where one has to consider the cost of new.
One has to consider the value of paying the total of $10,000-$25,000 for an old, fixed several times tractor. Or consider a new tractor for $11,000-$40,000 which has warrenty. And higher market value.
Lets not forget income tax claims for depreciation of new equipment. We are talking total operating costs here.
Also to consider when spending other people's money. Many of these amateurs have little experience. They are less inclined to be injured using a tractor with PS, working brakes, good lights, rops, live pto dif lock, 4WD and a real drawbar.
It appears you care more for the almighty dollar than the safety of amateurs.
I can trade that 1640 and get more total value even considering the repairs. Than what you can get total value for your 135 all considering it's costs. That's being wise with finances.
The level of repair quality also enters into the equation. Some operators only patch the bare minimum, broken lights, smashed grills,bent body work, broken instruments etc are ignored. Rusted rims might get some bondo and a leaking rad some stopleak.
Changing all fluids, flushing, new tubes, replacing tires in pairs before they blow. It would unheard off. Same as replacing all 26 year old hoses when one fails instead of replacing only the failed hose. Finding and adding a rops would not even be considered by most. Same goes for missing emblems, shop manuals, ripped seats etc. Some folk are happy sitting on a feed sack stuffed with straw, I'm not.
In case you wondered service here falls into the 2nd category.
 
I thought this was over. My 135 is worth more than when it was new and it's a 1965. 135's are the most sought after used tractor in the 40HP class. There were the most popular tractor in the world during their day as well. Your tractor is more HP and at least 15 years newer. It might be worth more but it won't have better total value than a good 135 diesel. You're talking about a $40,000 new tractor. Price out a new 100HP tractor that a real farmer would use. You can do a lot of fixing for $100,000+ and what if you need a combine, add another $300,000+ and a tandem grain truck $150,000 and a swather, etc, etc, etc. Sorry, most people don't have that kind of money to spend on new equipment and what happens if they have a bad year due to flooding or something else beyond their control. The big payments still have to be made. Not much difference with smaller tractors. It's not like you read of tractor injuries on a daily basis. Some people could be injured getting the paper out of the mailbox. Safety is up to the operator on a new or old machine but that was never the topic. Like someone else has said in the past, the JD dealer always has a shop full of tractors getting fixed, new and old. Why don't you trade your tractor in on a new one before it costs you more to fix it. I'm sure a new tractor will be plusher, quieter and safer than your old one and since you have so much money, it shouldn't be a problem at all. Good luck. Dave
 
Quote" since you have so much money" Unquote

There is what you are really all about,$$$ and jealousy.
Your numbers are skewed way out of context to try and make flimsy proof of a point as well.
 
Im certainly not jealous of you. You're rude, egotistical and condescending to anyone who has a different opinion than you. If you don't believe me, ask some others on here. I had to laugh when you were trying to give welding advice. I think you should stick to electrical related topics that you might know something about. There's enough other people on here that know more about tractors and equipment. That's all I have to say. Dave
 
Nothing but you told someone to make sure 6011 are very, very dry. They need a small amount of moisture to burn properly. At least you noticed a big difference using DC over AC. Someone else claimed it made a difference which way the welding cables are hooked up on an AC machine and started explaining a bunch of electrical terms. Perhaps you could agree that since it alternates back and forth, it wouldn't make any noticeable difference when striking an arc and you'd have to get really lucky to strike it at just the right time. Buying a DC welder is money well spent. A cheap buzz box is just going to frustrate people learning to weld. Hopefully we can agree on this. Dave
 
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