Cattle

Which would you choose for your herd:

White Charolais or Black Angus?

They"re both cattle and therefore exactly the same, yes/no?

And if they are not the same, can you point out the differences?

Would you keep a mixed herd of Charolais and Angus?

Do you think the mixed offspring of Charolais and Angus to be superior to their respective bull/cow?

Would you invest in pure bred White Charolais cows and then breed them to an unregistered Black Angus bull of unknown ancestry? Why not?

Specifically, why even bother to choose any breed over another or try to keep them pure bred in the first place? Is it because of some trait or characteristic displayed by one breed that the other lacks or possesses? Hmmm. Is it because one strain shows superiority over the other in certain aspects? If so, evidently breeders/farmers/ranchers recognize and acknowledge these traits?

Comments and opinions, please.

Blacks. Charolais tend to be a bit crazy. I have 10 or 12 here and hate them compared to my black or red cows.

Year in and year out a good black, or BWF calf outsells everything on the market.

Everything being equal Black cattle will outsell everything almost all the time

One word....heterosis; folks have jumped on the latest craze band-wagon ('new' breed) for years. Around here, we've been through the Charolais, Limousin, Beefmaster, and a dozen more whose names I've forgotten. They all sold good for a while......while the market was for brood stock, but when it came to what the feeders wanted, they settled into the background. There will always be a few folks who swear by 'their' breed, but at the local sale barns, black/white face calves (Angus/Polled Hereford cross) have outsold anything else for decades.

If you're anywhere near MN, go Black. That's the market craze here. I also think the blacks are a little easier going attitude wise. Also, angus calves are really hearty. They seem to jump right up and go to sucking at birth. I have three charloais cows, and they raise nice calves, but the calves aren't quite as "tough" as my angus calves. Alomst seem a little "stupid" at birth. If I don't get them up and sucking on their mothers they'll lay there and starve. Once I get them going the first time they are usually fine after that.

There is more difference within a breed than between breeds. Black Angus have a very successful marketing plan through the American Angus Association, and therefore usually will bring a premium price at market. It's so effective that even black Simmental cattle benefit from it!
The Continental(Charlois, Simmental, Gelvieh, etc) breeds usually mature at higher weights and therefore heifers cycle later. They have higher mature weights which means more feed for maintenance for the mature cow heard.

I've helped people with Simmentalcows calve and this herd has more calving assists and failure to mother up than I have ever encountered with British breeds(i.e. Hereford and Angus, Red and Black). I also have some Simmental/Red Angus Crosses that I have had some mothering up problems with and since I have never encountered this with the British breeds, I'm sure it's a Simmental trait.

All this means more cost per pound of weaned calf. Whether these cattle pay off depends on the total weaned weight and the calf price and feed prices. Now you can select out the undesirable traits but that can take some time.

I raise Red Angus and I do that because I am partial to the British breeds and red cattle, and because the Reds have, in my opinion, the best performance EPD data available for selection. They require whole herd reporting,(you don't report performance on just your top animals) and have a Maintenance Energy (ME)EPD that allows one to select for more feed efficiency in the cow herd. They tend to me more moderate size cattle though there are what I call oversize cattle for those folks who have a great quantity of cheap feed and can afford them. Their maternal traits, in my opinion, are superb and their carcass performance is very much in demand. I plan to cross with Hereford to market Red Baldy cattle, a combination that feeders like.

As I said, I'm partial to the British breeds for the excellent experience I have had with them, the quality of the selection data that are to be had with Red Angus. You can develop any breed to work for you but you need really good performance data to do that quickly if you are starting from scratch or if you are reacting to new market or production conditions. That's where I think Red Angus has a big advantage-excellent performance data.

Opinions are like belly buttons- everybody's got one. These are mine.

This is an interesting post. Tractor related because the cattle are part of the justification for the tractor.
We had a few cows when I was growing up, but they were a sideline. I know a little about cows themselves but I don't know much about the business. I have some land now; it was leased out for grazing when I bought it so I have let the cattle owner continue with the leasing. So I have about 35 head of mostly black angus on the place, but they are not mine. Maybe at some point I'll get my own.
My son in law's father is big into Beefmasters, and of course he thinks I should go that route. He is building his herd, buying some cows and selling some bulls, and I get the impression that it's always at a Beefmaster sale, where the cattle sells at a premium over the run of the mill cow that sells at the local stockyards.
I understand that someone will pay a premium for good bloodstock that will have good calves that grow quick and don't eat much, but at some point those cows end up in the meat case at the grocery store, along side the meat from the cows from the local stockyards. I also understand that you can get some "designer" beef at the store - the Angus people have done a good job of promoting their beef and getting a little more for it. But I always wonder if the "genuine Black Angus" beef at the grocery store came from registered cows, or did the cow they butchered just happen to be black?
If you invest in designer breeds, is there really a consistant payoff at the end of the line in more profits when sold?
What if I buy reasonably healthy calves at the stockyard and feed and take reasonable care of them? Are they significantly less likely to turn into Grade A beef than the designer cows? Will the designer cows always (usually? Most of the time? Occasionally?) get a premium at the stock sale?

As far as these two breeds go, Black Angus is a marketing powerhouse right now and this breed is considered the top price getter. Charolais were quite popular about 20 years ago, but have faded away since.

I would not buy into Charolais unless you find that they sell well in your area. I just culled out the last of my Charolais/Limo cross cows last fall and haven't missed them yet.

As far as your last question about keeping pure bred cattle, unless you want to commit to being a breeder yourself, don't waste your money on registered cows. However, do waste your money on registered bulls. The nice thing about registered animals, is that there are data points for things like calf birth weight for each animal. And this information is available from a third party (breeders association), so you don't have to take the sellers word for it. A good bull is worth the extra investment for a little piece of mind.

If you have a registered bull, but non-registered cattle of the same breed, you run a slight risk of inbreeding. Especially in the age of artificial insemination. Crossing breeds gives you piece of mind there.

Anyway, most of this advice is pretty nitpicky. Selling commercial cattle is for the meat not the hair color. The breed isn't going to effect the sale price all that much. It's just chasing that extra $0.01/lb that we're all after. Looking at the big picture, any gains you have in making your cattle more appealing at sale can be wiped out several times over by losing cows and calves at calving time, maintaining a healthy herd is the bigger priority.

I read somewere that Angus were a little nastier than some breeds, they are also harded on fences. I have 2 Black Angus in our barn and they seem ok....so I dont know if that is true. I do however like the Polled Hereford breed, very gentle and easy to keep. Good luck. j

if I was going with pure bred I'd go Angus.for a all round everyday cow that will make money with little trouble,a black white face would be hard to beat in the long haul.market is always there,good mothers generally,generally gentler than a purebred Angus for some reason.though Ive seen some mean ones,to me I think the Angus is generally prone to be more high strung than Hereford.they also tend to be,in my opinion,generally healthier than the purebreds of either parent stock,since they inherit a lot of both strains good points.there's other breeds that will make you money sometimes but a b/wf is a pretty steady performer in most markets.in my opinion ,and only my opinion,,i think purebreds of any breed tend to develop sicknesses that can run through a whole herd,quicker than a crossbreed.I've never have seen any data on this but it seems like it in my experience.Ive had 20-30 herefords go down sick in two or three days while the cross breeds running with them never even got a runny nose.don't know why but Ive had it happen more than once.hope this helps.

Agreed - especially the Angus marketing part.


When's the last time you saw a restraunt advertising their beef was pure Charolais?

I read there are now black Charolais cattle. If they can make the grade, they can pass for CAB (Certified Angus Beef).

I'm sorry i forgot to answer your questions in my rambling.(1)angus over charolais,(2)NO there absolutely not the same,charolais tend to get to market later -have more calving problems and generally dont bring the money angus does,(3)if thats what I had yes -but i wouldn't buy charolais specifically unless there was a local market for doing so,(4)every breed of cattle tend to have good and bad points-breed for what you need or have a market for,I myself wouldn't try crossing charlais cows with angus bulls specifically-i think what you would get are small birthweight calves that mature later,(5) if I went to the trouble of buying purebred anything i'd try to stay with that breed.(6) choose what breed you like and are capable of handling,we have mostly crosses and limousin but our cattle are wilder than most and some will really hurt you in a pen,but we have a LOT of trouble with dogs that folks have dumped chasing and killing calves.limousin cattle seem to fight them off ,or at least try to, better than angus or crosses so we keep our cross breds closer to home.(7) all breeds have good and bad points.some are better mothers,some milk out better,they are all bred for a purpose and each advantage seems in someway to have a trade-off.find one that suits your buisness and go with it.just make sure in the end that you can market whatever you get.

MacDonalds, they advertise 100% beef, so who knows, maybe Charolais.. lol.......

This is nt what your asking but if this is your first time raising cattle get some crossbred 2nd-3rd calvers and a good black bull . After that you can get into the paperwork slowly if you still want to .

Macdonald's is probably whatever sickly animal is cheapest that day. I would suspect that many an old dairy cow has become big macs.

get black cows, smaller frames, lower feed costs and usually decent temperment. You can then breed them to a Char. , hereford or angus, all of which sell good. Many feeders like angus/char. cross calves in the feedlot. I like black baldy cows f-1 (angus/hereford cross) I had a few char. cows years ago, first to the feeder and the last to leave! The old English breeds are hard to beat.

I agree with dboll below, most of my cows are black, they are easier to work than the non-black and do not seem to eat as much as others. The Angus x Charolais crosses I have are by far the biggest and by far the hungriest, first to the hay bale and last to leave, I'm gonna get a calf or two out of them and off they go

Within a few years my herd will be all black and black w/ white face

Your right, up here Taylor Packing is always buying downers or cripples for Mickydees.

actually I used to work at the okc stockyards.if you saw the cattle that sold to mcdonalds you wouldnt eat there again!ive actually seen them drop dead before they got them loaded!poor old cows that were there only because the farmers didnt want to call the rendering plant when they died on farm.used to pizz me off to see those poor old used up cows treated that way,some of them blind from cancer in both eyes, or just plain old sick cows.to this day I wont eat there if there is anything else in 50 miles.they sell beef alright --sort of

I hear you, I wont eat there either. I cant stand to go to the auction yard and go by the cripple pen. Some of them if they can be fixed I guess, are saved by the Amish, they will buy them fix them and bring them back to life.

You can tell most of these guys responding are from the cold (north) section of the states.

Here in the deep south a Charolais or something with big ears would be choosen most times over a Angus.

I"d go with black cows and a Charolais bull, at least thats what I do. For me, I want high milking ability medium framed cows, black or mocha bred back on a Charolais bull with a low actual birthweight and not over a +1.0 bw EPD. Pros: lower bull cost for the Charolais over Angus, smaller framed cows eat less, benefits of heterosis with the crossbred offspring, mocha color calves will still qualify for most of the CAB type programs. As to cons the mocha calves dont always bring as much as blacks.

1. If I had to choose I'd take angus.

2. No, night and day if you will. (S10 and one ton are both trucks but far from the same)

3. Angus are smaller frame. Charolais are larger frame and heavier on the muscle. (not going to get into temperment, handler has more to do with that than hide color.

4. It would depend on what my market was and what kinda calves I wanted.

5. In some aspects yes.

6. No. No reason to invest in high dollar cows for mix breeding. Especialy if you are going to breed down. (You are going to be feeding 1500 lb hay burners to get smokey grey calves that are going to wean lighter than white ones. If you want smokey greys get moderate frame black cows and put an easy calve'n white bull on them. Even better, one great thing about char blood is it will hide brama blood pretty good. Get some black hided brama influence brangus type cow with a moderate frame. These cows bred to a char bull will show next to no sign of brama influnece and there fore not get docked at the sale barn.)

7. 8-10 are all yes and that answers 7.

Hope this helps.

Dave

Folks,

I have enjoyed this thread more than any I have read here in months.

Most of the answers...I already knew...or believed to be true. I call your answers..a reality check.

Personally, I wouldn"t have a Charolais on my place. I have seen so many cows breached because of the big shouldered calves a Char bull produces. I also hate their temperament.

However, as stated below, a few years ago...they were all the rage. Limo"s were a big thing for a while and char/limo crosses had their time in the spotlight.

A lot of people whined that angus cattle are small and don"t finish out like the larger breeds...I don"t think they considered much about the quantity of feed it took to finish their pet breeds, either.

Thanks for giving me something good to read. It was so much more enlightening than "what kind of motor oil do I need" or a color war on tractors. Thanks to all.