Don't make this political,I don't care anymore about politics right now that I do football. I'm pondering something though,that our Governor is pushing hard. She wants a certain percentage of our states energy to come from alternative and "green" energy sources within just a few years. She says that "alternative energy" will be a source of as many as 17,000 good paying jobs in the state. Okay,fine and dandy,BUT,I have dependable electricity coming into the house right now at a fair price,the furnace is running on $2.00 a gallon fuel. Gas is $1.83 in town. Question: if it takes 17,000 well paid people to produce an alternative to the same energy that I already have,what's that energy gonna cost me? Am I just misinterpreting what she's saying? (that'd be a first,not understanding what a politician is talking about) Am I using too much common sense here or not enough? What am I missing?
- Thread starter rrlund
- Start date
The thing to keep in mind is that 6 months ago that gas was $3.50 plus. The folks back east and some in the midwest gave $2.79 a gal for propane, and diesel was well over $4.00 a gal.
It will soon be back to that since OPEC is cutting production until the barrel hits at least $70. Think how politicians are going to act when we have cars that can run on electricity that we can generate and store from wind, solar, or cow farts (methane). Once we as individuals become energy independent, Washington will have far less control over your life.
It will soon be back to that since OPEC is cutting production until the barrel hits at least $70. Think how politicians are going to act when we have cars that can run on electricity that we can generate and store from wind, solar, or cow farts (methane). Once we as individuals become energy independent, Washington will have far less control over your life.
Either we ignore the recent past, repeating it when energy goes up again, and then watch our economy goe in the toilet again. Or try to do something about our energy dependance. Do we want to stay dependent on assorted foriegners for energy? Or do something positive? Do you have alternatives?
olgentdc
Well-known Member
there is a guy coming to the County Independant Business Bureau to explain Hydrogen Fuel possibilities tonite 6pm at the Fun Farm near Lanesville ...
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
There would be a whole lot more jobs if the dups in washington would turn the energy and oil companies free so we could go after what we have.
And it would be money kept in the USA. But the communist would lose their control.
And it would be money kept in the USA. But the communist would lose their control.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
to get back to the original question - i think they mean jobs such as new electrical lines, wind tower erection/maint. and such which initially would be covered under the stimulus bill (?) then after that back to the layoffs. Yep the country is run by 6 power companies and right now they fight over who shuts down when the wind energy quicks in so the idea of so called cheaper energy will go the route that ethynol is going now. down the tubes except in areas that is actually being serviced by it. i think we need to get away from the "feed the world mentality" and get back to our own little corners of the world, but then this isn't a political forum right
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Hydrogen is great idea but.............where do you get the hydrogen from?
Electrolysis from electricity is energy intensive. The H2 then needs to be economically stored, transported then used where demanded.
Hydrogen is easily ignited and explosive. Hydrogen is a very small molecule which will actually creep through metal or composite tanks. The hydrogen also causes metal to become brittle. We don't use low hydrogen welding rods for nothing.
So unless you’re utility has 1000MW of spare wind turbine or off peak nuclear electricity. Hydrogen can not pay.
Stick with coal liquefaction.
Electrolysis from electricity is energy intensive. The H2 then needs to be economically stored, transported then used where demanded.
Hydrogen is easily ignited and explosive. Hydrogen is a very small molecule which will actually creep through metal or composite tanks. The hydrogen also causes metal to become brittle. We don't use low hydrogen welding rods for nothing.
So unless you’re utility has 1000MW of spare wind turbine or off peak nuclear electricity. Hydrogen can not pay.
Stick with coal liquefaction.
Coffee Helps
Member
I think your Governor may be correct. Didn't the former President say the U.S. should develop alternative sources of energy, about the time of the debates with Sen. Kerry?
I was told 6 to 8 years ago that the government was guaranteeing that the electricity from wind energy could be sold at a minimum of cost to produce, plus a guaranteed percentage profit. That might be why the windmills are sprouting up like weeds.
I wish I could start a business where I could be guaranteed a profit.
I don't have any proof of this, so if someone finds evidence to the contrary, I will not argue.
I wish I could start a business where I could be guaranteed a profit.
I don't have any proof of this, so if someone finds evidence to the contrary, I will not argue.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
What's the mystery? Jobs in insulation, manufacturing, remodeling, installation, infrastructure and R&D. All American jobs and saving American money now going to less than friends. I've already done a few inexpensive changes that cut my heating and hot water bill by 75% while increasing comfort. Just a tweek in thinking.
I think if you listened close to Jenny, she also said we would be utilizing 45% renewable energy by 2020. Since we as a state are at less than 1% now, that's a huge leap. I am involved in the planning and construction of at least five wind farms in the state right now, and if they all get built, they will create a large number of construction jobs, someone will also have to maintain them. There should also be an increased interest in solar panel construction/utilization in the state creating even more jobs. However, while it seems like 17,000 is a lot of jobs, we have lost almost 190,000 auto industry jobs, so we'll have a long way to go before we start seeing anything change. So far the best energy conservation strategy has been to send all of our jobs away, so people are forced to move out of the state, and therefore use less energy. Maybe someone should build an electric powered tractor.
Circus,
You said
"I've already done a few inexpensive changes that cut my heating and hot water bill by 75% while increasing comfort. Just a tweek in thinking."
Please share that with me so I can get by with my heating being only 25% of what it is now while having more heat and doing that with a few inexpensive changes.
Oh well on second thought don't. All the utility company's would go broke and they would have to be added to this bailout.
You said
"I've already done a few inexpensive changes that cut my heating and hot water bill by 75% while increasing comfort. Just a tweek in thinking."
Please share that with me so I can get by with my heating being only 25% of what it is now while having more heat and doing that with a few inexpensive changes.
Oh well on second thought don't. All the utility company's would go broke and they would have to be added to this bailout.
Left to our own, we will choose the lowest cost energy available.
That is why we have oil, coal, nuke, natural gas, and hysro. With some govt help to each of those, they continue to be the cheapest for various regions.
Alternatives will cost more.
Someday we will need to switch, when we find an alternative that is cheaper than what we are using now.
The govt dabbling & helping out certain alternatives is cool. Get that 1-2% online, and see how thay actually do work in the real world. All the other energy sources also got that starting boost, and continue to get help from the govt for infrastructure, etc.
Mandating some sort of huge shift in lass than 2 decades is crazy.
Ethanol & soyoil in diesel are a couple of examples. In my corner of the world, they actually make sense as the 2-15% of liquid fuels they are. It would not make any sense at all to mandate 50% of our liquid fuels come from ethanol or biodiesel - that would just be grandstanding.
Likewise, trying to get more than 5% of our electricity from wind generators in 15 years would be insane - building the heads, fabricating the blades - it takes resources & time. We can't make the capacity to build that many funcioning towers that fast.
It is just grandstanding to an audience that does not understand.
But, encouraging, and govt help to these sorts of alternitives is not a bad thing, if realistic goals and realistic build schedules are set.
Wind energy ebbs & flows, as the wind goes. It could never be more than 30% of our country's production, unless some massive storage systems are developed, which themselves become a drain on the efficiency of our power system.
But, perhaps getting to that 30% mark sooner, rather than later, would be a good move?
We need reality & time for these sorts of things. Not the political promises & mis-information.
Put it a total different way. People switched from LP records to CD's in about 5 years - because the CD was so much better, and was actually cheaper to produce. That was a rapid switch!!!!!
Society & the market will choose the best option for themselves, if it is out there.
--->Paul
That is why we have oil, coal, nuke, natural gas, and hysro. With some govt help to each of those, they continue to be the cheapest for various regions.
Alternatives will cost more.
Someday we will need to switch, when we find an alternative that is cheaper than what we are using now.
The govt dabbling & helping out certain alternatives is cool. Get that 1-2% online, and see how thay actually do work in the real world. All the other energy sources also got that starting boost, and continue to get help from the govt for infrastructure, etc.
Mandating some sort of huge shift in lass than 2 decades is crazy.
Ethanol & soyoil in diesel are a couple of examples. In my corner of the world, they actually make sense as the 2-15% of liquid fuels they are. It would not make any sense at all to mandate 50% of our liquid fuels come from ethanol or biodiesel - that would just be grandstanding.
Likewise, trying to get more than 5% of our electricity from wind generators in 15 years would be insane - building the heads, fabricating the blades - it takes resources & time. We can't make the capacity to build that many funcioning towers that fast.
It is just grandstanding to an audience that does not understand.
But, encouraging, and govt help to these sorts of alternitives is not a bad thing, if realistic goals and realistic build schedules are set.
Wind energy ebbs & flows, as the wind goes. It could never be more than 30% of our country's production, unless some massive storage systems are developed, which themselves become a drain on the efficiency of our power system.
But, perhaps getting to that 30% mark sooner, rather than later, would be a good move?
We need reality & time for these sorts of things. Not the political promises & mis-information.
Put it a total different way. People switched from LP records to CD's in about 5 years - because the CD was so much better, and was actually cheaper to produce. That was a rapid switch!!!!!
Society & the market will choose the best option for themselves, if it is out there.
--->Paul
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
write it down somewhere so you can come back and say "Dave told me".......
I see sunlight and wind being a factor in assessing future property tax..........
Dave
I see sunlight and wind being a factor in assessing future property tax..........
Dave
Like the solar panel plant right down the road. She IMPLIED in her State of the State that all of the lost Electrolux jobs had been replaced by that plant. We lost 2700 jobs when Electrolux left. Uni Solar has hired 380. Not to mention,the pay is less and 80% of their production is exported,not used to produce power here.
Dennis (VA)
Member
When considering the cost of energy, you have to consider the cost of 4000+ dead american kids, 14,000 wounded ones and $3 trillion dollars down the drain. But way figure it that way.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
I heard Glenn Beck say today that wind energy is getting a lot of subsidy. He said it's getting 50 times as much as coal energy. So the true cost can be hidden.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Recommend to the governer that all government buildings be converted to alternative energy.
Normal people will stay on the conventional grid, until we see how it works out.
Normal people will stay on the conventional grid, until we see how it works out.
Wayne from Wi
Member
Paul, When you said "Someday we will need to shift, ""when we find an alternative to what we are using now...." That is the most accurate statement I have seen anywhere. Laws can be wrote, proclimations can be made, but if it don't work, it will not survive. Excellent statement,,, Wayne
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Yes, BUT we will have no coal energy if your messiah has his way. The method is there (since WWII) to convert it to gas, the tech is there to make it clean. We are setting on more coal BTUs than the mid-east has oil,yet our new leader wants to bar mining and use, WTF!
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Gas from coal has been around more than a century.
Its use died because it became cheaper to pipe natural gas from the oil fields to the big cities and that natural gas was cleaner to burn and left no coal tar residues to pollute the coal gas production facilities. Today the coal tar is a valuable source of chemicals that aren't always available from crude oil.
Gerald J.
Its use died because it became cheaper to pipe natural gas from the oil fields to the big cities and that natural gas was cleaner to burn and left no coal tar residues to pollute the coal gas production facilities. Today the coal tar is a valuable source of chemicals that aren't always available from crude oil.
Gerald J.
onefarmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- 6735 S Lowell Rd, St Johns, Mi 48879
She also said at one time, "In five years you'll be blown away."
Well now I have no job and no prospects of getting another in the near future. She was right, I've been blown away. 8~(
Hope I can get enough farm income to make it thru.
Well now I have no job and no prospects of getting another in the near future. She was right, I've been blown away. 8~(
Hope I can get enough farm income to make it thru.
Paul from MI
Well-known Member
What you're missing RR, is that you can say anything. Making it happen is quite another. So far our illustrious governor hasn't made anything positive happen in the last six years. Look at the condition our state was in 6 years ago compared to today. I'm not convinced that whoever gets elected in two more years is going to change anything either. As long as the majority believe in Santa Claus adn the Tooth Fairy we will be doomed to repeat this stuff. The current Messiah in Washington is another example. As my old Daddy used to say "There ain't no free lunch!" When a majority of people in Michigan and the US start voting that way things will make a real change.
My rant-my opinion.
Paul
My rant-my opinion.
Paul
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Dave2.
Is Germany in full swing developing Solar and Wind energy,eventually closing Nuclear p.p's.or am I dreaming.Thought I saw this on
Deutsche Welle.
Is Germany in full swing developing Solar and Wind energy,eventually closing Nuclear p.p's.or am I dreaming.Thought I saw this on
Deutsche Welle.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Two more memorable statements:
"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself".
"I did not have s#x with THAT woman"
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
I'd tell you but not in open forum. A few tasks require more insight, skill and tools that are common and I wouldn't want anyone hurt.
Handsome Jim
Member
- Location
- Missouri
yea yea yea
Handsome Jim
Member
- Location
- Missouri
yea yea yea
Handsome Jim
Member
- Location
- Missouri
yea yea yea
Handsome Jim
Member
- Location
- Missouri
You don't get so snotty here
Handsome Jim
Member
- Location
- Missouri
You don't get so snotty here
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