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U of M study; Corn ethanol no better than gas

B

bradk

Well-known Member
There goes any hope of better corn prices!

MINNEAPOLIS(AP)-A new University of MN study finds that corn ethanol is no better then gasoline when it comes to fuel - and may be worse for air quality.

The study estimates the economic cost to human health and well-being from gasoline, corn-based ethanol and plant-based ethanol.

Researchers conlcuded that ethanol made from switchgrass and other plant materials is far better than either corn ethanol or gasoline. The study examined life-cycle emissions of growing, harvesting, producing and burning different fuels.

State estimates say ethanol is a 6 billion dollar industry in MN. Ethanol advocates say they haven't seen the study and will need time to understand how its conclusions were reached.

The university's study will be published in this weeks issue of the National Academy of Sciences.
 
I heard it takes 3 gallons of fossil fuel to make 1 gallon of ethonal! Thats way its worse for the envroiment
 
There seems to be no end of lies nowdays.Just throw your hands up in the air,say there is no hope,and buy oil.Now thats stupid.What ethanol we use is oil we arent buying and money that stays in our country.Doesnt matter that these hogs are playing you,some of you will swear on a stack of Bibles you know its better for us to buy oil.You need to read a lot more.Switchgrass isnt even being used yet,but when it is,it can be made at the same place that uses corn.As for the ones that make ethanol that are going broke,they were playing the stock market,stupidly at that,and went bankrupt,or there are various other reasons like not having a good plan to begin with.ADM will end up with all of them they want,then the price will go way higher for ethanol probably.
 
The university of Nebraska-Lincoln just came out with a report that was just the opposite. They claim there is even more benefit to corn ethanol than previously found.

The ethanol industry is far from perfect because it is in it's infancy. We will see much more effecient ethanol production in the future and we do need to keep working at it now while fossil fuels are still plentiful.

I suppose the Minnesota study is looking at the amount of trips across the field a polluting tractor makes to produce corn VS switchgrass, not to mention the herbicides and fertilizer used for corn.

Harvesting and storing corn is a less involved process than harvesting switch, which would be the same as making hay.

I wonder if the Minnesota study took into consideration the hassle of handling hay VS handling corn at the ethanol plant? Just some rambling thoughts! Jim
 
Step one of the nnalert plan for surrendering the United States to nnalert is by making us totally, 100% dependent on Arab oil. Fact -- nnalert block any new drilling and oil shale recovery projects in the US on federal lands (land that belongs to the tax payers) and a good percentage of private lands, this has been the case for at least 35 years. Consider the insane hoax called ''global warming'', brought to you by the nnalert, this has and will continue to bankrupt US Farmers and Ranchers and other businesses, lowering the standard of living for us all while China and India continue expanding their economies and out produce the rest of the world who make policy based on this fantasy.
 
Yeah thats great, the state land grant ag university doing studies that negatively impact corn growers. What a bunch of idiots. Let private industry handle research, that has to be the dumbest thing I"ve heard in a long time. The University of MN is cutting on corn ethanol???? Next thing you know Iowa State will be lobbying to cut off all grain exports because it creates pollution shipping.
 
All I know for sure is I have seen thousands of dollars worth of small engines ruined by a small percentage of ethynol in fuel. I don't have to have a study to know that.
 
Except that ethanol isn't substitute for diesel. Your argument is like saying I can't believe RCA doesn't burn TV's to get the power to build TV's.
 
Nice to see all the support for farmers on a tractor website... That study is complete utter bull****. If no ethanol/biodiesel is produced, farmers STILL produce crops, which still burns fuel, consumes nitrogen, carbon footprint blah blah etc. Do they include all fuel burnt by oil companies when constantly searching for crude, drilling for crude, shipping it, refining it. Oh ya, no carbon footprint there... God forbid money go into American farmers pockets instead of some Arab oil shiek.
 
You can try and say that,but thats not right.Whats coming next is oil made from algae.Big oil is just trying to cut out ethanol to get that 7% ethanol has of the market because algae is going to be the oil of the future.If not you are going to have to walk everywhere.

Now for everybody that wants to drill everywhere,what do you think that might do to the earth?If we pump all of the oil out of the ground it might make the earth turn on its axis,and you could be under a mile of ice in a few months.Oh that wont happen?How do you explain the mammoths frozen so fast they still have green grass,leaves,in their mouth?It has happened,over a hundred times at least.Read a geography book and it will tell you Alaska was a swamp,not very long ago.There are old maps that old Kings had that show the south pole and north pole with no ice.Research that instead of saying its nnalert fault.You might learn a lot,and there are plenty of people to blame,but its mostly money causing the problems,and looking at the big oil history,lots of corruption too.
 
All I know for sure is I have seen thousands of dollars worth of small engines ruined by a small percentage of ethynol in fuel. I don't have to have a study to know that.

=================================================

How were they ruined?
 
Just looked it up,every 250,000 years the earth switches polarity,its been 790,000 years since the last one,so we are overdue.Could happen any day,some say its already started.That brings real high surface winds,globe turns,or may even stop and rotate a different direction,and that causes lots of volcanoes to erupt and general chaos,extinctions.Thats happened many times in a 5 billion year history of Earth.Also read that the Earth has been dark before(probably also in the Bible)and one time as long as 4 days the sun didnt shine.I dont have any way to prove that stuff either.
 
I do my gas tractors and they make no large HP gas tractors.

And I burn biodiesel in the diesels

I have been burning a 10% ethanol blend in all my gas engines since 1974 and have had no engine falures in any chainsaw,mower, car, truck or tractors.

You guys around the country think this ethanol think is a new deal in the last 2 years. We have had it here in the midwest since 1974.

Gary
 
I read one gallon of oil makes 1.7 gallons of ethanol.Also read that sugar cane makes 6 times more ethanol than corn on one gallon of oil.You can make ethanol in a corn ethanol plant with sugar cane,and make it faster.

Why would you come on a website about tractors and badmouth ethanol?Looking for a fight?Dont know any better?You can read the same as I can,but you all choose to read propaganda,thats against yourself,if you are a farmer.That guy that said ethanol made less energy than it took to make it has been proved to be a liar,and yet,ignorant people keep digging his lie back up,writing articles based on it,and taking a big fat paycheck from big oil.Then you all read this stuff,and dont look anywhere else,and get on here and proclaim it as the truth?I dont get it,never will.

If we used all of the corn in the United States we couldnt make but 20% of our gasoline needs right now.That means if we run out of oil we could either use sugar cane to make enough ethanol to replace gasoline at our level now,or you can ride a train that burns ethanol.You will ride a train sooner using only oil.If algae works we wont need oil any more,at least not very much.
 
Really! you have to plow, dics, plant sray or cultivate, harvest, and haul maybe even dry. How much fuel does it take to do that, for 1 gallon of ethonal?????
 
Jay,
I heard it takes 5 gallons of gas to produce one gallon of gas. I can prove this just as easily as you can prove your stupid statement.
 
Phil,
When you get your head in the light instead of where you have it now, try reading up on how many subsides Exxon-Mobil got this year on top of their record profits.
 
Well you statement sounds stupider than mine. You must be some huge corn farmer who lost a fourtune. I have nothing against ethonal or buying American, but so far ethonal seems to be a joke. Head line in todays paper Ethonal producers failure forces corn buyback of 800,000 bushels of corn.
 
just a few comments on the posts I read here. We have a surplus of corn, that was one of the driving forces to create another use for it. We raise corn because it is a viable crop in the midwest so as for energy used for raising corn we would raise another crop if it wasn't corn. Oil companies have a direct interest in shutting down the ethanol industry be careful not to believe their b.s., I do use 10% ethanol in my gas tractors, some use e85 in theirs. old 2 stroke engine crank seals were affected by alcohol, materials have been changed long ago. Alcohol has no detrimental affects on a 4 stroke, disagree? Prove otherwise! I sometimes put a mixture of e85 in my 95 f150. Your money stays here with ethanol instead of going to some ragheads to buy weapons to use against us! I can't believe the opposition to ethanol on this site but I also realize many here are wanna-be farmers with no relationship to corn production or live in states where corn is not a major crop. Most farmers in Minnesota support ethanol and we use it. I remember the days of frozen gas lines and getting stranded in -20F temps with ice in the fuel filter. No longer a problem with ethanol. The corn price is dropping I would appreciate it some of you pro-oil anti renewable people on here could find more uses for my corn as you don't think it should be used for fuel.
 
brad,
I have only heard of this study so my understanding of the "facts" maybe skewed. Ethanol is typically 95+% pure alcohol so what it comes from (corn, sugar cane, or switch grass) won't mean diddly on which is less harmful to equipment. Potatoes make vodka just like grain does. ALCOHOL is ALCOHOL. Corn will be raised so input costs should be a NON factor. Have not seen any studies on use of by products of switch grass(does it give brewers grain for feed after use?) And most important; who financed the study ?
 
He's obviously not a farmer. Let's see, are farmers going to stop growing crops if ethanol ceased to exist? NO So all the enery used on the farm to plant, spray, harvest, and deliver the crop gets consumed regardeless. Soil still gets tilled, fertilizer still gets produced. (All the money spent on all of that goes into the economy here instead of United Arab Emirates.) Ethanol takes energy to distill. Oh, wait a minute, oil refineries don't run on sunshine and lollipops, they take energy too. Oil companies consume plenty of energy looking for oil, drilling, building pipelines, maintaining all of it. Then a supertanker comes across the ocean with it. (OOOOPS, ran 'er aground again, sorry teeheee) Those "studies" are skewed.
 
Dah! your useing forigen oil to plow, spray plant, harvest ect. How does that help our econonmy, Unless your useing b100 biodiesel, made in your garage!
 
I always look to see who finances the studies,


Anyone who used Metholated Spirits back in the 1940's for their aches,pains & scratches ,or to run the spirit stove were using ethanol, It's use is not a modern phenomenon.
 
Ruined how? I use 10% ethanol in everything, car, pickup, tractors, lawnmowers. I even run my collectible small engines on E85. I"ve run my CA Allis on E85 too.
Letting fuel spoil wrecks carbs. Straight gas or blend, doesn"t matter. Let the fuel spoil and while that will do damage, it"s not the fault of the fuel.
 
The sun always shines, only we on Earth don't see it because of cloud cover, but the pilots do, and I haven't heard any reports of them travelling in the dark at noon.
 
One thing I have not been able to find out is how much energy it takes to make a gallon of gas.
Once you figure in drilling, transporting to refinery and refining.
 
That fuel gets burned no matter what, unless the farm grows back to trees. Where i live, we have a farmers group that's putting up a biodiesel plant, (using our own canola) so I can reduce fossil fuel consumption by half. And do you think fuel is the only expense on a farm? You obviously haven't a clue how much money a farm spends on equipment, chemical, fertilzer, wages etc that go into the economy, just like any other business. I'll say it again for you sir, no more fuel gets burned on farms because of ethanol production, they are growing corn just like they did before ethanol.
 
Hmm, some folks sure can't stand to read anything that runs counter to their preconceived notions.

Corn certainly isn't a very environmentally-friendly crop to grow, particularly out west where it requires lots of fertilizer and water. The Ogallala acquifer is disappearing fast; when it's gone the towns in that part of the country will dry up too. Not to mention that the power used for irrigation could be going to other purposes.
 
No I use diesel power.Ethanol is a lousy fuel and its a negative overall in the long run because of all the inputs to make it.But since all the grain people are always promoting it the least they could do is run it in their own equipment and not be hypocrites.
 
There is one fella at the UofM that just doesn't like ethanol from grain, and comes up with these controvolted 'studies'. He has the math all wrong.

Here is an oppsing view, from the U of Lincoln, Nebr. They say grain ethanol provides 150$ return on energy, and about 40-45% reduction in pollution from grain elthanol. This study was peer reviewed.

http://domesticfuel.com/2009/01/22/report-shows-efficiency-of-ethanol-production/

--->Paul
 
I don't even grow corn, but perhaps you think the corn belt will stop growing it? I believe they grow what works for them. What would you like them to grow instead? It's not just a casual discussion for farmers, it's not a new one, and we have a big problem with some of the fundamentals of the argument used against it. I concede they have valid points about efficiency of ethanol production. In my opinion biodiesel is the way to go.
 
Just what do you grow on your farm Traditional Farmer?

You don't have any inputs to produce your crop?

I am a traditional farmer as well and have always had inputs.

The farmer sells for more than the inputs cost him so he has to have a positive return on energy.

The ethanol companies that play their cards right make money so they have a positive return of energy.

If ethanol is a energy loser, all would lose money. THINK ABOUT IT.

So where is this loss of energy?

And where are we gonna get rid of all this now cheap corn?

Even after all the corn that is used for ethanol, we had a 1.8 billion bushel carry over of corn going into the harvest of 2008.

Gary
 
No one fuel is going to replace gasoline. But, anything that can help reduce the dependency on the Middle East for oil can help!

Besides, I hope to run E85 (100+ octane) in my musclecars...can only get 91 octane gas here in CA :)
 
Every time an ethanol post is made here, the knownothings that "heard" something, and those simply out of the knowledgeable loop manage to spew their ignorance. Switchgrass? Fine, come up with the necessary enzymes that will convert it into ethanol on a practical basis. The existing plants will gladly convert to what some consider the more practical source. Seems like people outside of the Corn Belt (and some within) need to do some catch up, compared to those of us who have studied the industry for almost two decades! And, put our money where our mouth is by investing in the industry. Going through all the growing pains, and learning how to answer the critics. But, ignorance never ends. Must be better to send all the dollars overseas to buy oil, transport it, and defend the transport.
 
Ethanol is just coming into use in Maine and snowmobiles are having trouble with E10.I have seen photos of bent push rods in two makes of 4 cycle engines.Plenty of local complaints on seized up chain saws.I think the ethanol is interfering with the lubrication on 2 cycle engines.Drygas was used at 8 oz in 10 gallons of gas.Ethanol is added at the rate of 1 gallon in 10 gallons of gas.Google Ethanol gasoline problems.
 
Rings and bearings in snowmobile engines, Seized chain saws.Making the local news here.Bent push rods in 4 cycle engines,photos on Forestry Forum.50 to 1 fuel mix may be helping the problem.One mechanic says some oils make blobs in e10 gas instead of mixing.Best to test your 2 cycle oil in a sample of e10 in a small jar.
 
If producers produced too much corn that's their problem for poor judgement.Corn requires alot of imported oil/energy to produce and ethanol is a looser because the gov't has to force poeple to buy it and the taxpayers subsidize the production and the corn growers to boot. BTW I raise low input grass fed livestock want nothing to do with GM Corn anyway.
 
Would it be poor judgement if we cut back our corn acres and then we have a very poor weather year for growing corn.

Then when there is no food we would be blamed for poor judgement for growing less corn.

Grass fed beef is fine but if everyone did it we would not have enough food for our own country let alone our world market.

Non gmo is fine, but yields would go down to where we would be looking for food to import.

So what do we do import food or import oil to grow our own that mutltiplys into more food and more energy to burn.

I burn 6 gallon of fuel to the acre. I buy $150 per acre of imported fertilizer to the acre.

That acre produces 175 bushel to the acre and that converts into 472 gallons of ethanol per acre.

The government is forcing ethanol to clean up the air without using cancer causing agents to do it. And to decease the need for imported oil.

Gary
 
Jay I have put all the figures on here before and for every gallon of energy I use to grow the crop we get back 1.7 gallons of ethanol.

With oil production it takes 1 gallon to produce 1.3 gallon of fuel.

Gary
 
I'm certainly in favor of removing all the governement intervention.
Let the market determine what stands.
Alternative energy sources will not succeed until they make economical sense.
 
With all the fuel thats burned to grown corn and costs to make ethanol it probably pollutes the air more than oil plus ethanol doesn't put out near the BTU's of oil so more needs to be burned.Its a myth that 'all would starve' and all the other BS grain farm groups and big Ag companies put out as to why we need GM crops.The bottom line is a few are getting rich at the expense of the rest of the population and exported grain serves the US Taxpayer here in the US no purpose except to make food articically scarce and higher in price.
 
Not sure why you needed to use insults to make your point. I suppose I'd be rather grumpy if I had invested in ethanol technology (other than my TAX dollars) as well. You claim to be rather knowledgable on the subject. Why is it that getting cold, hard facts on the economics of ethanol is so difficult? I have some questions that I cant seem to get a straight answer on, perhaps you can help.
1.What price levels are needed on the corn and oil markets for ethanol to be viable?
2.How exactly do goverment subsidies for ethanol work and what exactly are they costing me as a taxpayer?
3.How is it that ethanol appeared viable at these oil and corn prices 2 years ago but doesnt now.
I have a lot of other questions as well, but will see if I can get these answered first. Understand that I have no axe to grind other than my own checkbook as a consumer. I do know this, it does cost more per mile in fuel costs to operate my wife's car on E85 than on pump gas.
 
Gary, You say you get back 1.7 gallons for each gallon of energy you use to grow the crop. Do you mean "to grow the crop" or total cost of the 1.7 gallons produced. I have read what you"ve posted before and don"t see a lot of total positive gain. I"m not knocking it, I know we had to start somewhere and the oversupply of corn was a source. My question is in real terms is there a lot of positive gain, when compared gallon to gallon, apples to apples. I know a gallon of blended ethanol has less total output than a gallon of gasoline. If you did farm with gas tractors would there be a net gain? And again I know it wouldn"t be the best use of energy at this time. Do you feel that the contoversy over ethanol and the media frenzy has made the big oil companies change their focus to diesel demand and it"s price? I admire your efforts and I know you put your livelyhood to the test everyday. Not many people, let alone farmers, put their whole existence on the line and take the time to pencil it all out and see where you as an individual leave the smallest footprint thus leaving your offspring a better world to live in. Here in the Willamette valey we don"t grow corn but do grow some crops for biofuel and Oregon has mandated the 10% blend. We can"t wait for these alternative fuels to be big cost savers before we do something. We need- NO-have to get away from non USA oil dependency and use all the resouces available to keep the USA the best place on earth, we can"t just keep arguing the point and DO NOTHING.... So thanks for helping those who care to try to learn and understand....James
 
maybe IaGary , myself and others can get Case to make a 500hp spark ignition quad track so we can burn our corn to make you people happy! ethanol production does not force producers to grow gm corn, we use it for weed/pest control, I still grow some non-gm corn. I feed ground ear corn, I don't have time to get cattle up to weight on hay only and consumers like corn fed beef, do you get 4#/per day growth on grass? Cattle need energy when it is 20 or 30 below and corn is the cheapest energy you can feed.Corn has been grown here for over a hundred years because it works, we used to raise oats when we dairied, we are going to raise what makes the best economic return for us that is soybeans and corn and maybe wheat, oats, sunflowers ect. typically don't make money around here, flowers don't do well. people confuse ethanol with methanol, methanol is corrosive and is made from wood. don't want to use alc. in your 2strokes ? you can buy st. gas for them, I have seen no 4stroke damage and we have had blended gas for years,alcohol isn't going to replace gas it reduces the amount used, non alc. supporters keep making the oil fat cats and arabs wealthy and turn your back on the people that put food in your mouth while you are reading your fantasy farmer comic books, pretend farmers are pathetic!
 
Gary, if I understand your statement correctly, you are not including the fossil fuels burned at the ethanol plant?
 
"Grass fed beef is fine but we wouldent have enuoght for our own country" If we had more small farms we would have that many more producers, producing a better product than the feel lot corn feed beef. If it makes you feel better you should try reading some books on grass fed farming. Gene Lodgson is one of the best.
 
Wow, there's a lot of hate going on here.

I would like to say that you do some things just because it's the right thing to do. You don't do everything just because it's cheaper. For example, it's cheaper for me to throw my old broken refrigerator in some farmer's ditch than it is to have it disposed of properly. But I dispose of it properly because it's the right thing to do.

Leaded gas was cheaper than unleaded but we know that taking the lead out of gas the right thing to do because of unseen pollution and health problems (just like my refrigerator example).

Ethanol at a 10 percent ratio replaces the MTBE additive in gas. MTBE is probably cheaper but is some very nasty stuff and can really pollute groundwater. That's the right thing to do.

The market will eventually tell us whether corn, sugar cane, switchgrass, or whatever is the best source of ethanol. But ethanol use at some percentage is a good thing for now.

And about the poster who mentioned algae, you probably saw the same thing I did. I watched a program that showed an electric power plant out west that was using a genetically modified algae system to "scrub" the carbon dioxide from its emissions. Kind of killing two birds with one stone, producing oil and cleaning up its emissions. It was pointed out that while this worked quite well, it would take a plant the size of a State to replace all of the oil we use so this would be a limited application at best. It was interesting though.

Just my two cents worth.

slim
 
My figures come out much the same as in this report. Yes all costs for production and growing are included. Look at the last paragraph below Table 1.

This report is from 1995 I believe, and we get more gallons per bushel than they did back then.

The figure I have for gas production is a number I heard at a meeting about energy. I can not back it up with fact.
Poke here
 
Well you have to read a real geography book,like you might find in a public library if its a good one,not a propaganda geography book like you find in school.
Just like on this website they dont agree.However all of them do agree that every now and then the Earth rolls and a different part is exposed to the sun,which means land that was on the surface is under water(ocean floor found in the top of mountains)and what was one time under ice(anywhere there are plateaus)show the earth rolls the other way every now and then,besides that the land is floating around,and lots of other things.Also it moves closer and further away from the Sun and the whole thing has been frozen before.

Its not very hard to find that Alaska was a swamp and not very long ago.After you find that,see what the explanation is for mammoths being flash frozen.If it doesnt talk about the Earth rolling in a new position,it doesnt make sense.
 
The cost of ethanol is cheaper than the cost of gasoline made from new production oil. When comparing ethanol to current gasoline it is more expensive bacause the oil being used has cheap production costs. And one of the factors no one includes in the price of oil is the expense of the military to protect oil coming from the middle east. Back several years ago the Wall Street Jounal had a article that stated that 1.50 gasoline really cost us about $3.00 due to the expense of the military used in the Mid-East. IT would be interesting to see what the cost would be after several years of involvement in Iraq.
 
I understand your point. Governments routinely give subsidies, payouts or whatever you call them to a lot of business to help them start out, expand, recover etc. It is done to benefit the economy, and could be debated at length. I live in Canada, and a huge amount of our taxes go to "social" programs supporting people (can't comment on who)and not doing anything for the economy, roads, etc. At least tax spent on business gives a payback
 
That ironic, I'm in Canada and I buy alcohol to put in my fuel for snowmobiles, so the carbs don't freeze up and melt a piston. One company was marketing winter fuel (10% ethanol, no frozen gas lines) a few years back, before the biofuel hype. We have ethanol blend, but it's not always there. Sometimes it's 10%, sometimes 0%. It just has to average 5%. I haven't heard anything beyond harder cold starting at 10% blend, and I know guys with 2 and 4 strokes.
 
I agree, Im not knocking ethonal or any farmers who grow corn for it. What I would like to see done is a less investment of foriegn oil to make ethonal. I strongly think with the tech we have today we should be powering our diesel tractors with Boidiesel From canola, mustuard seed or what ever else you con get it from. Rudoulph Diesel invented the first Diesel engine, I dont remember the year, but it ran on peanut oil. Thats what we need to get back too today. I also thought I read Germany right makes there own boidiesel so they are self suffuicent from forigen oil. We are headed in the right direction. We just need to get there faster. We need to stop focusing on space exploration, weather or not we could live on mars, and start saveing our planet. Put that time and money into alternative fuel... It can be done.j
 
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and we can at least agree to disagree. Grain farmers like biofuels because more markets for our crops give us better prices. Cattle and hog producers don't like it because there's no cheap grain for them to feed their animals. Other folks don't like the subsidies from tax dollars. I can respect other views, and leave it at that. Time to post about tractors.
 
Im going to tell you why you dont get an answer,and you wont like it,but its the truth.World War Three is an information war.We are in that up to our necks,and the people have lost it in every way that I can see.You now have most of the media owned by corporations that want to manipulate the media.I bet you dont know there are already world wide riots,never hear about that.Since"they"dont want you to get a straight answer about ethanol or algae for bio diesel,you dont get it.There is a big huge bunch of them that want to keep you ignorant and a slave.There are places you can go in the USA and have a hard time finding anything to read,no newspapers or magazines,except the ones that hype everything and lie.
The reason this is happening is that people were misled(I dont even have to say by who)and only the "corporate"way is what gets done.Thats why we have the info wars.Now that its gone this far,its probably going to get worse,not better.
Now there will probably be a bunch that dont agree,flame away,you are wrong and I know it.None of your standard answers are going to work this time,they are old and worn out.Also light is beginning to shine into the cockroach infested government of crooks,and things are being found out.Now we have to see if the side in control now is any better or not.So far at least they are different.I hope they are better and end the info war and lots of other stuff gets better.What passes for education nowdays is disgusting,college and all.
 
All of you other folks out there could receive the same broadcasts directly into your brain, same as T-40, just make your tinfoil hat, put it on, and plug into the nearest outlet!
 
You know that might be kinda funny DIY except that the info war thing is really happening.Did you know there is a big peanut butter recall,and that maybe the MREs sent to Kentucky for the ice storm could have been contaminated?Why doesnt the media report stuff?What happened to the SEC?What happened to the FDA?I think heads are going to roll and they deserve it.
 
You have to listen to Art Bell for 10 years.You wouldnt know about a tin foil hat if wasnt for that Radio show.There are things going on in the past,even now,and will again in the future,if we survive.If the smart people are right,and the world is 5 billion years old,you could make a chart with a map of the USA as the chart.Using the highways from California to Washington DC as an example of time,the line of all the time dinosaurs were on the Earth goes from the coast of California to just outside Washington DC,then man goes from just outside Washington,DC to down town which is now.Thats a million years.We dont know for sure what happened a thousand years ago.Actually not much changed for thousands of years past Atlantis.Somebody burnt the library at Alexandria and didnt want us to know what happened before.So yeah,try and be funny about the tin foil hat,but you can never stop learning if you look for the truth.Its easy to believe lies,and then just think what they want you to think.Just like that movie where these people are in prison,they finally after years in a Turkish prison have like a nervous breakdown and just walk around a column in the basement,one direction only.This American gets in there and walks around it the wrong way.This other one tells him he is a bad machine,a broken machine for walking around the column the wrong way.They have no use for bad machines.Bad machines either walk around the column the right way or their head gets busted,they are thrown into solitary and beat up and worse.To some extent this is the same thing you are trying to tell me DIY.About half of the people will go the other way just because you tell them your way is right.About half the time they are right and you are wrong.I know that the World being just so,so from the sun,spinning at a certain speed,the fact that the moon completely blocks the sun in an eclipse(which doesnt happen anywhere else in the solar system)the fact that the moon is even here,all of this is beyond my knowledge.That says there is a higher power.Beyond that there are endless things a person can study,and look for answers.Much better than just letting somebody think for me.The tin foil hat stuff may be more truthful than you can even imagine.
 
The strib has a history of spinning ethanol woes, and studies. The "scientific research" out of the U OF M seems biased to me, granted, I'm not a scientist, but numbers can be manipulated to a degree. Just wait till other respected scientists and researchers review the study. I'm sure they will be poking holes in this guy's results.

Most producers in the ethanol industry already know, corn is not the best source of ethanol... Which the news media seems to skip and proclaim "ethanol is a bad alternative source of energy, period". Corn is the primary source now, but better crops for producing ethanol are getting closer to reality. It's too bad the U of Minnesota doesn't publish a scientific study on these other crops. I guess they just want to keep buying oil, from a market dominated by OPEC. I'm glad we have an alternative. It is not perfect but it is a choice.

I'll get of my soap box now..
 
Jay,
Agree with a lot of that, during WWII germany also worked on converting coal to gas. We are setting on more coal BTUs than all the oil combined, lets get the "green" wackos to let us mine and convert it. Instead we have a pres who has stated he would like to tax coal out of business.
 
It is insulting to see gossip/opinion stated as fact with nothing to back it up. Regarding MN State subsidies...The Legislature enacted a 20 cent per gallon tax on I think 15 million gallons of production of the small plant- typical farmer coops. Beyond that production, they get none. It sunsets in I believe, 10 years after production starts. So, no, there is no definitive answer to how much subsidy it is per gallon, since some gallons are not subsidized. Few years ago, Gov Tpaw with a stroke of a pen, cut out subsidies to save money. Was later returned to some extent. Viability at various plants? Depends on many factors. Not all plants operate at the same efficiency or have the same costs, outstanding loans, etc. In January, eth was leaving the plant at $1.40 per gallon. Corn cost was 3.25-3.50. Had some production problems, and the plant was not making money. Lost money last year when corn was 5-6-7. Eth price follows the gas price trendlines to a large degree. Made lots of profit when corn was under 3, and eth was about 1.70. Regarding "studies"...Of 12 studies, 9 of them showed a positive energy balance, 3 did not. All 3 of them were by Pimental, former Shell employee who is a bug professor at Cornell(?). Obviously skewed info...he figured the energy needed to mine the ore to make the steel to make the farm equipment and steel for the ethanol plants. Figured all corn was irrigated, so had a high energy cost there. Assumed all the corn was consumed in production, while only a third is...balance is DDGS, excellent high protein (24-27%) bovine feed, utilized to some extent by single-stomach animals. Corn bushel produces about 2.7 gallon eth, 18# DDGS. Much of the public got hooked on the food vs fuel debate, thinking the corn is used up in production. Who pushed that? National Grocer"s Association. Typically takes 1 btu of energy to produce 1.67 btu eth. 1 btu energy produces 3.1 btu biodiesel. Can I prove this? yup!
 
Regarding mileage, our experience is this- mileage dropped 11% on E-85, and if eth is 40 cents under gas, it certainly pays to use it. I"ve seen it beyond 50 cents under. Some time ago, a poster said power is reduced by the same percentage of eth added to gasoline. ie, E10 has ten percent less poower. Then E85 would be 85percent less power! Then straight eth would have no power!! Now, isn"t that BS?
 
If you can prove it, and you're so sure Pimentel is wrong, put your crop in the ground without the use of any fossil fuels, then harvest it and make the juice and see what you've got left.
I could almost guarntee you that if you close the loop on that system, it will not be sustainable... which IS the goal if anyone is to suggest that ethanol is a 'renewable' energy.
That will sort the truth from the ponzi schemes.

Pimentel is quite correct to allow for the energy used to mine the ore, make the iron and build the tractor. It's all energy that is used that would not otherwise be used if you wern't producing ethanol.
He may be wrong or overzelaous in some of his assumptions with regard to what energy is consumed, but other studies I've looked at are equally if not more dismissive in the other direction.
I beleive that there is likely a rather narrow net energy loss with ethanol... but even if there was a narrow net energy gain, one would have to wonder if the resources it consumes are worthwhile for such a small gain.

Rod
 
Rod,
One part of your statement bothers me, the part about the ore,iron, etc. the tractor would have still been made and corn would still have been grown. In his comparisons he doesn't allow for the steel in tankers or the cost of pipelines. You can make the #s match what ever you are trying to prove, switch grass is marginally more efficient but handlng in and out is a problem, and sugar cane is hugely more efficient but harder to grow in MN, ND,.
 
The steel in tankers or pileplines is not relevant to the production of ethanol which is why it's not considered. Neither is the amount of oil consumed in producing oil relevant to ethanol.
Ethanol has to prove itself sustainable (have a positive energy balance) before it can be compared to oil, otherwise you're just consuming oil to make ethanol...

Rod
 
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