Oil bath vs dry element

rrlund · Jan 8, 2009

Here's something I got to pondering. The best minds in the coffee shop were stumped today too. Question first,then the examples. Will a tractor with an oil bath air cleaner be more prone to moisture in the oil than one with a dry element filter?

I've had quite a time with my Oliver 1600 getting ice in the bottom of the pan when I use it everyday to feed round bales. It has an oil bath. So does the 77. I use that one everyday on the silage cart. Neither one runs long enough to really warm up. I changed the oil in the 77 the other day and like the 1600 does,there was a big block of ice in the pan. I've put the loader off the 1600 on the Oliver 1550 for now. Put it on there in early September in fact. Hadn't changed oil in that one in a while,so I changed that one day before yesterday too. No ice,dry element filter. One more example,my John Deere 1020. I've got a loader on that,dry element,use it everyday to load silage,load manure once or twice a week,it's never had ice in it. Has to be moisture from the air. If they were leaking antifreeze into the oil,it wouldn't freeze.

thurlow · Jan 8, 2009

I've nothing but anecdotal information; 2 of the old tractors which were bought new and which I've still got are both early model 4020 diesels; '65 model has oil bath air cleaner; '67 (could be '68) has dry filter. They've both been abused and have an unknown number of hours........ 15,000-plus, but I can't tell any difference in the shape the motors are in; don't know that I've ever had enough moisture in the oil pan of either to matter. The older one has been a feed/chore tractor almost from day one......

RayP(MI) · Jan 8, 2009

Randy, I would think that water in the oilpan would be more closely related to condensation, possible leakage from the outside, blowby and possible leaks from coolant system, rather than air filter types. Probably need to run those guys a little more, and warm up the oil and drive off the moisture.

PS Drain the Ice outa the oilpan!

Ray

Revredneck · Jan 8, 2009

You nailed it when you said that neither one runs long enough to warm up good. When an engine begins to get warm, moisture condenses inside it, and if it doesn't get warm enough to burn out the moisture, it will remain in the engine, causing your problem. Another huge problem it causes is sludge, because the moisture attaches itself to the particulate contamination that is suspended in the oil. If I were you, I'd find a way to warm them up good every time they are started. That should take care of the problem. HTH.
Good Luck and God Bless.

rrlund · Jan 8, 2009

But all 4 of them run about the same length of time everyday and don't warm up. Just that the 2 with oil bath filters have more condensation in them.

ohfred · Jan 8, 2009

You won't notice a bad thermostat on a tractor like you would in a car...it takes a lot longer for the engine to warm up and in colder weather it won't warm up to operating tamperature at all. Could this be a part of your problem? ohfred

Kansas Cockshutt · Jan 8, 2009

Well, I can see where you are drawing your conclusions from, and I respectfully think it is a red herring IMHO. The air passing through a thin paper or an oily mesh will still pass with most of its moisture; I agree with the others suggestions for the reason. Especially that much moisture. I hope you find the cause.

rrlund · Jan 8, 2009

Just have to change the oil in those 2 more often than the newer ones I guess. Quite a coincidence though if there's nothing to it.

Anonymous-0 · Jan 8, 2009

Replace thermonstat. Might not even have one in.

rustyj14 · Jan 8, 2009

Could you install a petcock drain in the bottom of the oil pan, so after it gets warmed up, and before you shut it dowwn, it might let the water drain out until you see oil coming out the little petcock?! Oil floats on water, ya know! And, since the water forms a block of ice in the pan, you might be able to drain out the water before it freezes.

LouNY · Jan 8, 2009

I have the same problem with my 1550 utility, it has the oil bath air cleaner. I had changed the oil this fall so that she would be ready for winter snow and loading my sander on the plow truck and generator when needed. After this last ice storm I didn"t think about it much, the old girl had about 30 hours continuous at PTO speed, with the radiator partly covered to keep her nice and warm. A couple of days after the ice storm went to start it, no go, just some smoke pulled the breather oil cup, had a hard time getting it off, bottom full of ice and the oil looking like a light chocolate froth of semi-ice. This has happened to this tractor several times when used in winter storms. It has to be the moisture in the air condensing into the oil and displacing the oil up into the steel wool and pulling some into the engine. When it gets shutdown it will freeze up and block all the air from the engine.
Lou

Glen D Anderson · Jan 8, 2009

Check the condition of the crankcase vent system...........

AND

"Neither one runs long enough to really warm up"

THAT could be part of your problem as well NOT the type of air filter...........The best solution would be to get the tractor up to operating temp. when you're using it BUT if that is not a possibilty, more frequent oil changes are in order............

Jerry/MT · Jan 8, 2009

Sorry but I don't see the connection of water in the crankcase oil being caused by the type of air filter that's installed. Most water in the crankcase comes from three possible sources; a leak from the cooling system, water condensing from blowby gases (water vapor is a product of combustion), or condensation from moist outside air. I suppose one could argue that if there was water vapor in the intake air that would also show up in the blowby gases but water vapor will pass through either type of filter. I doubt that any significant amount of liquid water could make it around the normal 180o turn in a typical oil bath air cleaner.
If you have excessive water in your crankcase, look for a cooling system leak, a failed open or incorrect temperature thermostat, a plugged breather outlet or not enough opertaing time at normal design operating temperature.

RandyB(MI) · Jan 8, 2009

I don't know your Olivers that well and not the Jd either , BUT ,do the two that don't have the problem happen to have a closed "positive" crank case ventilation system on them??? and maybe the worst two have the old open draft tube type of crank case breather? Could be the difference instead of type air filter . It is crankcase condensation that you are seeing. The air comming through the intake tract never sees the crank case.(unless it's a 2 stroke)

LouNY · Jan 8, 2009

Are you getting ice in the engine oil pan or in the air filter oil (cup) pan?
Thanks
Lou

Jack a · Jan 9, 2009

Not warming up enough is probably the problem. Run them longer to warm up and see what happens. Unless you have a bad thermostat I'd bet the moisture will be gone.

BLinWMI · Jan 9, 2009

I don't know if there could be any correlation. I know that when we were milking we had 2 3020s. One was new enough to have a paper filter and the 65 had an oil bath. We used the 65 on the spreader because it was the only one able to fit under the gutter cleaner chute, and the newer one was wide front and had a cab so it got used on the snow blower. We saw that the one on snow blower duty acually ended up with more moisture in the oil than the oil bath spreader tractor. I always figured it was because the tractor was pulling moisture in while ventilating the crankcase, from all the snow flying around while blowing. It definately got up to temp so it shouldn't have been an issue but we saw it more in that tractor. Both these tractors were kept inside when not being used.

rrlund · Jan 9, 2009

It's in the oil pan.

rrlund · Jan 9, 2009

Gets to be a matter of economics. They run about 10 minutes a day,7 days a week,365. Do you waste gas letting them run 10 times longer than they need to 365 days a year,or change the oil more often. Becomes a no brainer.

rrlund · Jan 9, 2009

See now,you're making my point. My 1550 has a dry element and never does that. The 1600 has an oil bath and ALWAYS does it.

Jack a · Jan 9, 2009

Just a thought. But at ten minutes that is definitely your problem. So I guess change the oil. Ventilation might be better on the other two and like I said maybe thermostats are too cold or stuck open.

Oil bath vs dry element

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