Brake system flush rip off

My daughter called me last Friday, and said the garage she was getting a tune-up at said they would do a brake flush for 85.00 on top of the tune-up for 300.00. I told her to forget the flush. If I'am correct isn't all they do is hook up a power bleeder and let some fluid out at each wheel? Stan

WHAT is she getting for the $300 spent on the "tune up"?

where have i been for the last fifty years i have never heard of a brake fluid flush.

I had the same thing recommended a few years ago. Its B/S. They claim the fluid loses its strength and may inhibit the brake piston function. The guy's pump machine didn't work right so he took what he could out of the master brake cylinder and still charged me $70. I bet he didn't get a half pint out.....I never went back there. I've had vehicles for 10 years and other than an odd top up the brakes worked fine. Its too bad that people can't use their ingenuity constructively instead of trying to screw everyone---and its across all industries like banking,retail, construction, etc.

are they going to drain the air out of the tires and replace it with new air too. sounds like a scam to me

Old timer told me to flush braking system fluid every couple years. He also told me brake fluid was honey and vinegar. Wonder if it prevents any problems. Want to know.

Tune up should only cost $175 at the most. There is the same brake fluid in my Ford trucks for over 10 years now, and prior to that, the old chevys had the same brake fluid in them for 20 years. Never had a problem as long as fluid was bled, brakes were functioning and correct.

Also heard of nitrogen in tires. Rip off or good?

When you take a vehicle to the Chevy dealer here for an oil change they will show you a sample of your brake fluid and power steering fluid and say they need changing. I've drove a lot of miles in my day and I,ve never changed either one nor had any trouble with them. Scam!

One of the local tire shops here was trying to sell that idea because race cars use nitro but I don't think it is working. If you had a leaking tire and no nitro then what.

$85 seems a little high, but it is a good idea to have it done. When I worked at a Nissan dealership 20 years ago, it was part of the service every 30,000 miles. You wouldn't believe the sludge and mud that would come out of a system that hadn't been flushed for 100k. Brake fluid absorbes water and turns acidic over time, and breaks down the rubber hoses and seals in the system, making the black sludge. Parts last a lot longer, and the car is safer if flushed occasionally. That being said, cars regularly do fine never being flushed. Some people get by with rarely changing oil too, but it's not a good idea.

Next, they'll tell her the last guy put the tires on the wrong side. $80 to switch the lefts for the rights.

Local (Wichta KS) VW dealer tried to scam my daughter with a brake fluid change - told her the warranty was going to be voided if she failed to do it. She called me and I went to the dealer and had a nice chat with the service manager in front of several other customers. Ended up, my daughter AND the other customers all drove away as fast as they could. Never had an occasion to test the warranty later though.

Just check your master cylinder for the fluid condition. Nest thing you know they will want to change your muffler cause the exhaust dont smell right.

Here on the left coast people will believe anything. Stan

My truck has just over 150,000 and never had the brake fluid changed, a lot of stop and go. shops are looking to make a dollar anyway they can in a tight economy, If I were you I wouldn"t do it unless there is sludge or chunks or very thick or thin. Dont have the transmission flushed if they offer that next, bad idea and can blow out seals, not to mention they dont change the gasket, filter or all the fluid and get grime out.

Just my 2 cents,
Chris

"Toolz" knows what he's talking about.
Ditto on what he said.

If you don't want to change/flush it, that's your decision, but it costs in the long run--you'll pay one way or another.
I do my own work, and flush the system whenever I open up the hydraulics for any reason. You wouldn't believe how nasty the old stuff is, and looking in the master cylinder won't accurately tell what condition the fluid is in the rest of the system.

However, believe what you want to, and spend how you want to, I'm not here to argue.

Never had complete flush other that wheel cyl replacement. Bottom line as I understand OLD brake fluid increases the stopping distance.

37 Chief,
A brake flush should include removing old discolored fluid, then cleaning the sludge
out of the master cylinder reservoir without
forcing it down into the passages below, then
with a power bleeder or by doing it by hand, bleed all parts of the system until fresh clear
brake fluid comes out.

A rushed flush can force sludge down
contaminating the system worse than it was to start with. I wouldn't let any shop or mechanic
that you don't trust with your life do any brake work. I try to flush mine every 2-3 years. If
they do the job right, sometimes $85 would be a bargain to me, but some of my 1/2 hour jobs take
me a half a day.

Comment on the Nitrogen. Heavy load trucking Co. that we deal with, 13 axels 130-150k lbs swears he has less tire trouble since he started using Nitrogen. FWTW

the nitrogen is a more stable and inert gas. it is supposed to be better for the inside of the rim and the rubber in the tire. and if the car has low pressure tire sensors, better for them to. good, bad, i dunno. as far as the brake flush, if the fluid is contaminated, definately flush it. 85 dont sound bad if done correctly. an hour shop labor, 70 to 100 mechanical rate plus fluid.

Being a mechanic I've heard of alot of things that are supposed to make a vehicle, or it's parts, last longer. The funny thing is there seem to be more and more things like this being spouted every day and the number just keeps increasing as the vehicle owners knowledge of the vehicle decreases.

On that note I question the idea that old brake fluid stops a vehicle any measurable amount slower than new fluid. The fluid (wether its old or new) is a liquid and therefore incompressable. The simple fact that fluids can't be compressed is the basis for every hydraulic system in operation. The only thing that would make a difference in old fluid vs new fluid vs 'plain' hydraulic oil vs water is the vapor point of the particular fluid. If the any one of the three fluids got hot enough to turn to vapor then yes there would be system degradation, and the vehicle wouldn't stop because vapor can be compressed. That's why they don't use water or oils with a lower vapor point. As long as the fluid in the system has a high enough vapor point that the heat of braking doesn't flash it off then any fluid you put in there would work just as good as any other. This is one of the reasons alot of off road equipment can use regular hydraulic oil in the braking system because they don't do enough stopping to generate that much heat and when heat is generated the system has a cooling system to disapate it and keep the fluid temp below the vapor point, something an onroad vehicle doesn't have.


The lack of knowledge about the vehicle leads to things like getting charged for transmission "flushes". Often all they do is suck the fluid out, circulate it through a filter and pump it back in with some new stuff to top it off. That does little more than remove some contamination while moving the rest of it around and sweeten the additive package with the top off amount. Why not just change the oil and the filter while your at it. You give this level of service to the engine why not to another part that works just as hard.


Then you get the change both headlights at the same time story. If their so worried about both burning out at the same time (what changing both is supposed to prevent, at least so I understand) why not change one at a time? Seems to me it increases the chance of always having at least one light burning all the time even if the other should burn out.


Now I hear this deal about flushing out the brake fluid. The new fluid is supposed to be the greatest stuff ever and is supposed to be rated for the heat of a typical brake system. Unless you ride your brakes unecessarily, etc you shouldn't have a problem with the brake fluid "going bad". Even then if you ride them that much you'll most likely be getting new fluid in the system when you change the pads/shoes anyway.

I've had vehicles last well over 400,000 miles (and still going strong when totaled in a wreck caused by someone else) started great, burned no oil, stopped just fine, etc etc without doing any of the BS they try to get people to spend money on nowdays. If you planned to keep your vehicle for the next 60 years then some of this stuff might save a dollar later on in it's life, but typically the vehicle will be worn out and scrapped before any of these new fangled ideas ever showes even a dime on the return. But that's just my opinion......

I can't believe how many people on here have never heard of flushing out their brake fluid. Brake fluid absorbs water and turns the insides of your wheel cylinders into a mess. It doesn't last forever. Especially if you live in a northern climate. People who live in the desert probably don't have to worry about it. I have done dozens of brake jobs on various brands of vehicles and have seen some really nasty rust and crud in the systems. Its easy to avoid an $85 dollar charge for bleeding out the old brake fluid by buying a $5 dollar bottle of fluid and doing it yourself. He was charging you for 1 hour of labor at standard shop rate of $85 per hour. $85 dollars changing brake fluid is better money spent than getting 4 spark plugs changed and calling it a $300 dollar "tune up". I would have saved here $385 dollars and done it for her.

Race cars also go 180 mph in heavy traffic. I don't think that's a good idea for a family car.

I flush the brake fluid on my motorcycle every other year. Which means completely removing all the old fluid, not just taking a little off at the calipers.

DOT 4 fluid absorbs water. Water is bad for the system. The difference in appearance between the old fluid and the new stuff is like old oil and new oil. Over time the old fluid can destroy system parts.

DOT 5 fluid is silicone based, and will not absorb water, therefore doesn"t need to be replaced. I have heard, however, that water can "pool" at the bottom of the system, and should be drained if it accumulates. Also, DOT 5 is not compatible with DOT 4 systems.

That said, you are totally correct about the hydraulics and liquid compression. New fluid will NOT make the vehicle stop any faster.

After 30 years of being either in the automotive business, or in related businesses, it's been my observation that if these scam artists worked as hard at being honest as they do at being crooked they'd be making a lot more money and have a decent reputation, to boot.

Maybe I'm cynical in my old age, but I'm convinced that all of the negative and derogatory comments that have ever been made about the auto repair business have been grossly understated.

Been driving a long time myself, never had it done, never will either. With a closed system, no water should enter and shouldn't have a way to enter. Same with dirt, unless you drive around with the fill cap off, mud and road grime will not enter the system. 150,000 miles on the police car and none of them have had a service like that. Its your money, but I'd laugh. Too many mechanics want to overhaul your entire car when its only time for an oil change.

Forty some years ago when Mustangs were new we convinced a secretary that her new car had break-in air in the tires and with the after break-in service she should make sure the dealer changed the air in her tires. Would like to have seen the service writer's face when she told him that.

Events like this are done everyday. I know of several "service stations" that would check the oil and tell the driver it was a quart low. They would add a quart of oil from an empty quart container.
This was when motor oil was 50 cents. I am sure it is still done today.

The idea with nitrogen in the tires, is that the tires stay up longer. Nitrogen is a larger molecule, and therefore doesn't escape the tires as quickly.

Yes on having the brake system fluid changed or flushed...

Both standard brake systems & ABS will benefit from changing fluid!

Warning, if the vehicle is older or has some miles on it, and or, has never had a flush service preformed it may cause problems in the future, especially for the ABS.






[size=9:536dda9d14]Scott [/size:536dda9d14]

Can you explain the build up and presence of a sludge like material in the master cylinder or why the brake fluid becomes discolored in this sealed system?



[size=9:f7dd013f3c]Scott[/size:f7dd013f3c]

Have you ever had to work on the brakes of a relatively new car with even 100,000 miles on it and bled the wheel cylinders and looked at what comes out?

Called it a sealed system or whatever you want, but the fluid DOES get NASTY over time, and ASSUMING they were legitimate in flushing the brake system it certainly CAN'T hurt!

I'd be FAR more apt to question where the $300.00 went for the "tuneup" before the $85.00 or whatever the brake flush cost.

I want to know about the $300 tune-up. On newer cars there is almost nothing to tune up. New plugs and rarley is the timing off.
Old cars had plugs, points condensor, rotor distributor cap. Carbs to adjust.
You can't adjust hardly anything on a new computerized car.
Maybe $300 for putting in a few plugs.
I think I'm in the wrong business.

I want to know about the $300 tune-up. On newer cars there is almost nothing to tune up. New plugs and rarley is the timing off.
Old cars had plugs, points condensor, rotor distributor cap. Carbs to adjust.
You can't adjust hardly anything on a new computerized car.
Maybe $300 for putting in a few plugs.
I think I'm in the wrong business.

Well, my truck ets the fluid flushed through it what seems to be atleast once a year lately. Not because I feel like it, but because one brake line or another bursts.

It really is one of those things that should be flushed out once in a while though, because it does absorb water. Even with the cap on, air and therefore moisture can still get in there. Not as fast as no cap at all, but did you ever notice that as your pads wear the fluid level goes down? There is more air in the reservoir than there was at the start so it gets in there some how.

That said, my car (and truck) basically only get bled if I blow a line or need to replace something. Ends up being once every ouple of years anyways with all the road salt eating the brake lines.

Donovan from Wisconsin

(quoted from post at 16:57:39 12/14/08) My daughter called me last Friday, and said the garage she was getting a tune-up at said they would do a brake flush for 85.00 on top of the tune-up for 300.00. I told her to forget the flush. If I'am correct isn't all they do is hook up a power bleeder and let some fluid out at each wheel? Stan

Click to expand...

German garages are pretty proud of their work. My Kia clutch cyl's are tied in with the brakes so when I had the slave cyl replaced they flushed the whole system. Everything, including the cyl was 80 bucks. Thing the flush was 25 including fluid.

Dave

True the level goes down as the pads wear but that means nothing as far as air getting into the master cylinder, at least on the older vehicles. If you look at the majority of older vehicles they had a rubber seal with a bellows in the chamber. It's design was to seal the chamber as well as to allow the area in the top of the chamber to fill with air without touching the fluid because of the bellows design. The fact that many new style chamber don't have this feature tells me that for every step forward most car mfgs make they also take at least one other step back. Not this fact could possibly be a cause for concern for a vehicle in a humid climate, especially if it's not driven enough to heat the fluid and burn off the moisture. Still considering the lifespan of most new cars I simply can't see where any problems would be encountered before the brakes needed to be changed, etc. In other words, just like my origional post to this topic, I'm not saying the fluid will neve get dirty and need changing, especially in todays not so sealed systems, but it shouldn't ever get dirty enough to justify having the system flushed just for the sake of doing it.

It is shocking what some so-called garages will pull.

Yes, 85 bucks is a lot for a brake fluid flush, but 300 bucks for a "tune-up" on any modern car is outrageous. Most cars made in the last 15 years have platinum plugs and require no tune-up to speak of for 100,000 miles. At that point new plugs and wires will be good for another 100K. Now if your daughter's car has that many miles on it, it probably needs more work than just plugs and brake fluid.

The air we breathe is about 78% nitrogen.

She needs to avoid going repair shops without an escort until finds that she can trust them. Midas and Monroe are the worst for recommending useless repairs. The use gimicks like: tune up, free tire rotations (then charge for removing and reinstalling the tires), adding air to the tires (that the mechanic conveniently let out momements before), removing 'carbon' from the intake, changing the air filter (even when its brand new). I know this because my wife has been charged for these 'problems.' At one point they tried to pressure her into new shocks and struts when the car only had 40k miles, it would only have cost her $2500 to have the work done.

These shops seem to prey on unsuspecting customers, usally women. To get around this, I usually follow her into the shop wearing an oil stained shirt and torn oil-stained jeans. When I'm standing next to her, looking over the invoice, they don't seem to offer the BS repairs. It's not a great solution, but it has worked for us.

On the brake flush, it's probably not needed unless she has been having brake trouble.

"On the brake flush, it's probably not needed unless she has been having brake trouble. "

THAT'S an interesting statement.

By the time there is "brake trouble", It's too late to accomplish much with a flush... corrosion and pitting of the internal parts will have already occurred.

$300 too high ,,? depends what your working on . Plugs , fuel filter , premium wires. Labor , some cars/trucks require up to 3-4 hrs just to replace plugs ! The good old days of $30 tune up are gone . As for a brake flush, as stated before , it is a maintinance item , if your having trouble it's already to late! Wait till you price ABS controllers and valves ! Decarbon intakes ? Yea on fuel injected engines with lots of miles on them you'd be surprised what an upper intake ceaning will do !

I have seen instances where a 'soft' brake pedal has been resolved by bleeding the brake lines. A system flush would insure that there was no contamination in the fluid, which might contribute to the problem. Please don't missunderstand, I have never intentionally flushed my brake system and have no plans to do so. I was just trying to think of a case where it might be appropriate.

I know a guy that swore by NOT changing engine oil.
He claimed engines run longer on old oil, as the sludge and varnish compensate for mechanical wear.
He never changed oil, only added. Seriously.
I don't suppose he ever flushed his brakes, either.

As far as brake flushing being a "new-fangled" idea,
I learned it in tech school 30 years ago.
I guess that makes it a fairly new idea.

In general, There's a right way and a wrong way of doing things, and a whole range in between. Its up to the individual how to maintain a vehicle, if they have an honest, knowledgable, informative mechanic. Far too few of them out there, with shop management to back them up.

A proper tune-up, RARELY done, includes a multitude of checks, adjustments, lubes, etc. We used to call this type a MAJOR tuneup, and priced it differently from a MINOR tuneup, explaining the difference to the customer and letting them decide how to spend their money. A MAJOR tuneup was much more labor intensive and lengthy, in comparison to a MINOR one, but could discover and/or prevent future problems. Often, in service manuals, the MAJOR is defined at a longer interval than a normal tuneup. Note that MAJOR and MINOR was only our slang term for it, not normally found in tech manuals. I know of shops that will charge as if performing a MAJOR, yet only perform a MINOR.
BTW, We also flushed the brakes whenever opening the system, as part of the brake job, at no additional charge. It took a little extra time, but we could stand behind our work.

Like others, I think a $300 tuneup is ridiculous, BUT not unheard of. It depends on what they do and where they get the parts. Price out a set of plugs and wires and a serpentine belt for a Hemi engine from a dealer and you'll whistle.

When my 3 daughters got their driver's licenses, I went through the basics of a car with them (w/w solvent, oil, idiot lites, gages, tire pressures, how to change a tire, etc) AND I told them when they get their oil changed that no matter what the tech at one of the 15 min franchise places said, JUST GET THE OIL CHANGED, even if the guy said the engine was about to blow up. Sure enough, every one of them came home with stories about how the guy tried to sell them transmission fluid change (smells burnt), serpentine belt change (frayed at the edges), oil system flush, radiator flush, new air filter, etc, etc. and spiced the sales pitches with how dangerous it was to drive off without doing the above. Some of them have trouble understanding "No, just change the oil".

If you want to flush your brake fluid, go ahead, it's your money. But in driving cars well past 100k for over 40 yrs, I have never done it and I don't see the return on investment. Just like the nitrogen scam. If you check your tires regularly and top off with air, you'll have no problems.

If Air is 78% nitrogen then what are you gaining.
All but the tiny bit of Hydrogen are inert gases aren't they.

Table 1: Standard Composition of Dry Air (Detailed Analysis):
Gas % by Volume
Nitrogen 78.08
Oxygen 20.95
Argon 0.93
Carbon Dioxide 0.038
Neon 0.0018
Helium 0.0005
Krypton 0.0001
Hydrogen 0.00005
Xenon Negligible

I forgot about those bellows- My truck and car both just have a cap on them so I haven't really ever had to deal with them much. MOst manufacturers probably got rid of them so any Joe Blow could add fluid without messing it up.

Donovan from Wisconsin