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Kinda disappointing last night to see the auto bill fail, we gave $700 billion to the banks with no accountability. They just needed to BORROW 15 Billion and pay it back. The 700 we already gave to the banks still isnt doing anything, credit still froze. If the 700 did something then the big 3 should have NO Problem gettin a Loan. This is going to put alot of people out on the bread lines. In the news in Detroit this morning, lawyers are going to GM headquarters to start arranging the Bankruptcy.

They say the UAW is the blame here because they would not get rid of the $75.00 labor wage. That is BS. they are going off old data. Its about $51.00 and that includes their pension.

Now we are going to depend on a foreign country to produce our vehicles...just like we depend on foreign oil. I dont even know if a foreign automaker makes a 3/4 ton 4x4, dont get rid of your old pick-up.

I hate to see what the stock market does today.

How do you think this is going to if at all effect your families? DTURKE
 
Mine is. And at this point I don't care if I don't have it. Someone else can deal with all of GM's silly crappe. I know it would really hurt everything if they folded,but I think in the long run it would be the best.

And I can't for the life of me figure out how if one would fold ( like chrysler )why the news people think the rest would go down like dominos.
I think it could only help Ford and GM ? And if GM would go it surly would have to help Ford who isn't to be in as bad of shape.
 
There are a few auto jobs here in Iowa. Just about every big city has a factory to make some kind of part to finish up a car or truck.

The wage here is around $20- $25 an hour. And these people are making a good living. But they cannot afford to pay for a NEW $35,000 car.

The higher cost of living in Detroit has driven up the cost of cars so that the other states that are on a lower cost of living cannot afford them.

Maybe a bankrupcy will lower the cost of living in Detroit and break the unions to where the cost of an auto will come down to the US cost of living. And thinks will take off again.

I am not against unions but how that wage got up to $51 an hour I do not understand. My SIL belongs to a local pipefitters union and is nowhere near that $51 but makes a very comfortable wage.

Gary
 
Let them fail. If I do stupid things, I fail. They did stupid things and should pay the consequences.

I am so sick of this bailout garbage. This country is going down the toilet so fast it's ridiculous.

YOU CANNOT LEGISLATE THE POOR INTO FREEDOM BY LEGISLATING THE WEALTHY OUT OF FREEDOM. WHAT ONE PERSON RECEIVES WITHOUT WORKING FOR, ANOTHER PERSON MUST WORK FOR WITHOUT RECEIVING.
THE GOVERNMENT CANNOT GIVE TO ANYBODY ANYTHING THAT THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT FIRST TAKE FROM SOMEBODY ELSE. WHEN HALF OF THE PEOPLE GET THE IDEA THAT THEY DO NOT HAVE TO WORK
BECAUSE THE OTHER HALF IS GOING TO TAKE CARE OF THEM, AND WHEN THE OTHER HALF GETS THE IDEA THAT IT DOES NO GOOD TO WORK BECAUSE SOMEBODY ELSE IS GOING TO GET WHAT THEY WORK FOR, THAT MY DEAR FRIEND, IS ABOUT THE END OF ANY NATION.

YOU CANNOT MULTIPLY WEALTH BY DIVIDING IT.
 
Foreign cars built here. Domestic cars imported. $50 billion AIG bail out money proping up European banks. I'm confussed. How does water get into my Leylands trans/hyd fuid?
 
Ripples on the pond.....

I work for a general contractor that build, among other things, several multi-level parking garages per year (in various large cities) With recent developments, there has been several projects cut off. Fuel and transportation cost has lessened the numbers of people driving. Lay-offs have cut deeper into that number. Wholesale cuts in city budgets has substancially lowered the monies available for large municipal projects. End result? The crews we NORMALLY have on the road pouring concrete and setting steel are being laid off for the first time in ages. (I've been with this company for 37-1/2 years)

So, with-out a direct tie to the auto industry, the same set of problems that is effecting the auto industry is sending about 100 skilled laborers (mix of union and non-union) to the unemployment office. They don't have money to spend on new cars and trucks. It just snowballs.

Point being, no matter what or WHO caused this debacle, it's real, it's serious, and it's ALL OF OURS to un-do. We can "teach Detroit a lesson" and spend the next 100 years chasing Tokyo to get ourselves back in the auto business, OR, we can do the unpleasant task of picking Detroit up by the collar and dragging them back into profitability.

You or I might not have set the barn on fire, but we sure do need to help put the fire out before it spreads to our barn.
 
With the foreign car companies here in the US getting government subsidaries. Not having to carry the extra costs of an union workforce. Plus, the load of all the retirees. The US car co's are at a big disadvantage. They will probably have to go through some kind of bankrupcy/restructuring. The unions HAVE to make serious concessions. The nnalert. of course, are big union supporters. They are making no demands on them. This bailout, as written, will only push the problem down the road. The unions have to deal or everything is going down the crapper. One question I do have is, how come the unions let the foreign companies set up shop in this country and not "Unionize" them? I believe in the US companies and I don"t want to see them fail, but this version of the bailout is not going to fix the problem. This whole deal, everything, not just the auto company problems. Is a big mess. I think we are witnessing the collapse of our whole system. I have NO faith, in those A$$HATS down there in Wash. Jack
 
I just checked Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid's Senate website at reid.senate.gov. The first thing you see there is an article proclaiming how vital the auto industry is to his constituents in Nevada. So then I check the roll call for the bailout vote last night. Three Dhimmicrats voted no. One of them was Senator Reid. Pretty easy to see what a principled man he is.
 
I'm a self-employed tool & die designer for 20+ years, automotive is a big part of my business. The last 5 years I've done very little for the domestic manufactures more for the foreign companies. There is a difference between going bankrupt and closing for business, our domestic steel industry has been bankrupt many times. A new owner or management comes in and either restart the factory or moves its useable assets elsewhere. Yes their is usually jobs lost, most of which are the overburden that caused the factory to be inefficient in the first place. Sometimes you need to clear the dead wood out to get good growth. I think that is where we are at now.
 
Every body will be affected by this,wether you work in the industry or not

Yes the bankrupty of any of the big 3 will cause upheaval in the industry with job loss and such.
But the auto industry has been in the same balloon blowing contest as the financial institutions and a host of others.
How can you keep pumping out more and more vehicles in a basicly saturated market, and on top compete with cheaper foreign vehicles.Over production of cars and such has the same effect as overproduction of hogs and beef.Ask any farmer wath happens next.

It has been proven many times,YOU CAN NOT BORROW YOURSELF OUT OF DEBT.

Some one will pick up these company for a dime on the dollar and be back in business again,altough a lot of people will have to find other work
 
They will not be allowed to fail.
GW will see to that.
GM, Ford and Chrysler could ALL begin by dropping duplicate models of the same vehicle (under a different company name and different trim package. Then pair down what they EXPECT to sell to the public. Dealers are having a hard enough time trying to sell what they've taken on trade. When you can buy a 4 to 5 year old used vehicle for a fifth of the cost of a new one, you don't have to be a genius.
 
There is not much difference between the UAW wages and foreign car company wages (it's like $25 vs $27 per hr). It's the retirements. The foreign plants are too new to have retirees. They will one day and then move on. Also in foreign countries they don't have to pay healthcare or retirement because their government pays them. With that system we'll never compete.
 
(quoted from post at 08:39:20 12/12/08) It's the retirements. The foreign plants are too new to have retirees. They will one day and then move on. Also in foreign countries they don't have to pay healthcare or retirement because their government pays them. With that system we'll never compete.
Click to expand...

Not sure about other countries, but in Germany there are a couple generations of retirees and the Government only insures the unemployed. Health insurance is paid 50/50 (+/- a little) by the worker and the company. Same for retirement. Sure, there is a little something there like social security, but not much (that's where the free health care kicks in).

Dave
 
This can't be allowed to go on. What about, the foreign Co's pay some kind of tariff for every car and truck they sell in the US? From what I understand, they make it real tough for us in their home markets. I remember years ago, the jap motorcycle Co's were killing Harley Davidson. With their so called "Fire sales". They were purposly trying to kill HD by flooding the market with cheap bikes. Pres. Reagan put a tariff on them for every bike sold. Ending the unfair advantage they had. We have to do something. We are just allowing these foreigners to kill our domestic industry.
Our government has already allowed the destruction of our Textile industry, damn near killed our steel industry. We're not going, at this rate, have anything. Jack
 
The American auto makers sold the same number of cars world wide as did foreign auto makers. The American auto makers lost money and the foreign auto makers made millions. That is missmanagement. And as far as the unions go, no company can stay in business when they have a contract that says they have to pay 250,000 people who no longer even work for them. The whole thing is ridiculous from the get go, on all sides.

If you live by the union you'll eventually die by the union because of their corrupt leadership. And these workers knew their leaders were this way and kept voting for them.

Thr foriegn companys are building plants in this country and putting people to work and making money doing it. If the big three can't figure out how to do it then they need to fail.
 
One thing is the way the nnalert are talking about it,one of them wont survive.The way I see it,if the nnalert cause them to go into bankruptcy,no matter what reason they give for doing that,are putting lots of people out of a job.With their inability to understand things except in their skewed vision of things,they will put another nail in their own coffin.Maybe 2 or 3 more blunders like that and we finally will be done with them for good,but the whole country might be out of a job first.I dont see any reason not to help the auto makers since they will pay it back.The banker rip off was wrong.
 
At least Ford started restructuring some time ago, and GM and Chrysler apparently didn't.
Make money available to Ford and let the other two fall.
Do a search on my state, Alabama, and see what this state GAVE the foreign manufacturers to put their plants in Alabama. No wonder Alabama doesn't want the bailout!
This country couldn't do less for the banks and insurance companies because they RUN this country.
 
I think the goverment should take a new approach to the auto industry.Here in Canada the foreign auto makers are allowed to import their cars but most of these same countries either wont allow or restrict our autos to their country.Our free trade agreement favors the USA but our govermenmt has not up to now done anything about it.Pres E external_link says he will scrap the agreement and our goverment says good then we will deal with Mexico and China.I think because your big no longer means your the best.That goes for companies and countries.
 
I own a transmission shop and do some general repair as well.

I didn`t like the bank bailout, but...

Why doesn`t anybody put any blame on all the people who bought houses they couldn`t afford. I get telemarker calls every day wanting to give me pre-approved business loans. I hang up. Seems to me the average american can`t jump into debt fast enough, then want someone else to pay for it... Why should we expect any different of the big wheels in detriot.

I personally would rather see them all have to go thru some sort of bankrupcy and restructure..
I don`t care what cost of living is, you aren`t gonna be profitable when your pay scale is double what toyota and honda is. Throwing money at it isn`t gonna fix anything. They need to be hit hard and put in a position where both sides (unions and execs) have to wake up. Sink or swim... BW
 
Turke Bros. Farms,
Yup, I work for a supplier that supplies the tools used in assembly plants. The Big 3 have their share of self-made problems, both on the UAW side and Management side. Competition from the transplants AND imports is forcing them both to clean up their act and this is GOOD. However, the current crisis is NOT self-made. I.e. gas skyrocketing and then the credit crisis were a double whammy that caused sales to plummet to lows not seen in decades. Look at the root cause and it's greedy people in both cases: oil speculators (Wall St.) and greedy brokers (Wall Street) who fanned the flames of the sub-prime mortgage crisis. Notice the common culprit in both instances??? Yet, they got $700 billion with little fanfare and yet these obvious facts are swept under the rug. Why??? Because Congress is complicit in the credit crisis due to the CRA that forced banks to loan to people who normally wouldn't qualify (rightly so) for mortgages. It was a disaster waiting to happen.

Anyway, others on this thread have minimized the impact of a Ch 11 filing. They point to the steel industry years ago. Well, it is totally different for a company that supplies to other companies to file Ch 11 and a company that caters to consumers (i.e. the Big 3). When Delphi filed for Ch 11, their customer, GM, kept buying parts from them. If GM files, THEIR customers (buying public) will no longer buy cars from them. That will drive them to liquidation and the ripple effects will be felt everywhere. Will the country survive? Yeah, sure, but we're in a recession now. A Ch 11 filing will turn it into a depression that will probably last 5-10 yrs at least and there won't be enough bankruptcy judges in the country to handle all the cases that follow within days of a GM filing.

I know that the company I work for is dependent upon payments from the Big 3 to come in on a steady basis to make payroll, pay our suppliers, utilities, etc. If a Ch 11 filing occurs, it will delay our receivable payments that would have to be ok'ed by a judge. Our bank will probably cancel our credit line and the dominoes will fall.

It's a psychological issue now. The buying public is holding off buying new vehicles of ANY BRAND (including imports and transplants) because of the uncertainty surrounding the bridge loan (not a bailout, like the Wall Street plan). Sales are down ALMOST 50%, for goodness sakes and falling fast. People who ARE employed are afraid they will lose their job and it's not just auto-related. Brother (in Calif)works for a web-related company in the health care industry and is next to be laid off after a recent round of cuts. Friend's son-in-law got laid off recently from a company (Minnesota) that does on-line advertising for newspapers due to ad revenues being down. Newspapers are endangered due to drop in subscribers due to online news access and drop in ad revenues.

The impact will be felt all across the country, very quickly. How to survive? Well, wife and I both work, so we are probably upper middle class in terms of income. But we're living like either or both of us may lose our job any day. That means no discretionary spending, car-pooling, brown-bagging lunches, etc. We've all got to hunker down like our ancestors did during the Depression of the 30's.

Be curious to hear from posters who will NOT be affected by current economic crisis or whose income and companies they work for are growing. Anybody out there in THOSE circumstances?
 
Any money given to GM and Chrysler will be a gift as they have no ability to pay it back.They havent made money in years and have no prospects of making any in the future without drastic changes.

We have to stop these bail outs and get over this mentality that everyone is too big to fail! I get so sick of this being portrayed as a nnalert versus nnalert thing.GM needs to file bankruptcy and go on.Its not going to be the end of the world if they do.

Several farmers in this area filed bankruptcy in the 1980's and they all farm 3-5000 acres now.
 
Bankruptcy 101.

Chapter 7= Going out of business. Send everybody home, liquidate the assets, pay creditors as far as the money will go. Nobody is talking about Chapter 7 for the automakers.

Chapter 11= Business reorganization. All collection efforts by creditors are put on hold. New money can come in with a "super priority" lien position on the collateral- and you can bet the feds would either put up the money themselves, or force some of those banks they pumped billions into to do the financing, probably with govt. guarantees. Bankruptcy trustee supervises the business (or more likely, hires experts to do it). Contracts can be "accepted" or "rejected", at the behest of the bankruptcy judge- and thats where "what goes around, comes around" down at the Union hall.

Everyone on here keeps saying, its not a bailout, they're going to pay it back. No, they're not, unless they somehow get profitable again. And they can't get profitable until they get competitive. Chapter 11 is the only way to do it. Now I hope GW, who has turned out to be the most abundant conservative in the history of the nnalert party, shows a little backbone. I'm betting he won't.
 
As with any MAJOR repair we have to do on our tractors or any piece of equipment that is broken, we have to tear it apart before it can be fixed.
 
GM will NOT "go on" after a Ch 11 filing, they'll end up liquidating and Mike, "All collection efforts by creditors are put on hold." Yup, that includes the suppliers and where will GM get their parts and "go on" when the companies that make them can't get paid for what their owed already? The "creditors" are largely suppliers (big and small) who are on the verge of bankrupcy themselves. Can someone please explain to me how GM's Ch 11 filing will NOT cause ripple effects? People make it sound so easy. "Just file and restructure". Yet, they have no clue about the nuts and bolts of this event. Very few people who oppose the bridge loan have thought it through, including naysayers on this Board. Assembly plants shut down very quickly when even ONE supplier doesn't ship parts. Compound that by the hundreds that will quickly go out of business just waiting for a bankruptcy judge to ok payments and the auto industry will be in paralysis. That includes the transplants as many suppliers that supply to GM also supply to Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc.

Please, please, someone explain to me how these comments are logically wrong? Don't just rant and rave about mismanagement, greedy unions, etc. Explain to me how "life will go on" in the auto industry.
 
Welp let me explain something. This morning I went into the local Chrysler dealer and I looked at a Dodge 1500 regular cab 2 wheel drive..plain Jane truck...$34,000..next I looked at the same thing in an extended cab...$41.000....a 4x4 extended cab diesel was..$61,000, loaded. Now I have a decent income and there is no way in hell I would spend that kind of money on a truck because I simply can't afford it...if trucks were 25-30 grand I wouldn't hesitate...it is no wonder that these vehicles aren't selling..so what makes them so expensive? It has to be labour primarily,materials have no doubt risen, are these companies making a big profit?..they say not so why does a truck cost so much(vehicle)
 
being a Federal retiree I'm in pretty good shape unless external_link runs it into the ground with his give to everyone mentality.

Anyway those of us with money will get rich buying up the things that the rest of you can't keep or pay for and when the money starts to flow again I know what I'm going to be doing.

Sorry about you poor workers but that's just the way the Ol' Ball Bounces.

Walt Giggling all the way to bank.
 
(quoted from post at 12:46:19 12/12/08) Welp let me explain something. This morning I went into the local Chrysler dealer and I looked at a Dodge 1500 regular cab 2 wheel drive..plain Jane truck...$34,000..next I looked at the same thing in an extended cab...$41.000....a 4x4 extended cab diesel was..$61,000, loaded. Now I have a decent income and there is no way in hell I would spend that kind of money on a truck because I simply can't afford it...if trucks were 25-30 grand I wouldn't hesitate...it is no wonder that these vehicles aren't selling..so what makes them so expensive? It has to be labour primarily,materials have no doubt risen, are these companies making a big profit?..they say not so why does a truck cost so much(vehicle)
Click to expand...

Totally agree. Went to replace my leased '06 Jeep Gr Cherokee recently and was stunned to hear a model-for-model replacement would be about $250 more PER MONTH. I ended up buying a Saturn small SUV/crossover (with fewer features/options) to keep my payment reasonable.

I also own a plain-Jane '02 Silverado 4x4 work truck, bought used in '04 for about $13k. It serves its purpose, has NO power windows, NO power seats, NO CD player, NO Onstar, NO satellite radio, NO sunroof, NO leather seats, etc., etc. I don't think you could find a new one like that anymore. Bottom line is that mfrs will build what sells. Evidently work trucks weren't selling. So they "loaded up the truck" (to paraphrase Beverly Hillbillies song) with all the electronic goodies that jacked up the price. Plus all the govt mandated safety and emissions stuff costs a TON of money to put on a truck. Heck, look at the electronic controls on a new tractor compared to one sold 50 yrs ago. On a diesel tractor, you could remove the key after starting and disconnect all electrical and an old tractor would run just fine.

And Michael, reason the Big 3 are on Death Row is because their fixed costs require X number of vehicles sold to break even and sales volumes are dropping like a rock, so they can't cover their fixed costs. They can't cut fixed costs fast enough. Once the bottom is hit and sales start to rise, profits will return. Will certainly be long and painful and that's IF they survive the current crisis.
 
A lot of people aroud here think $25 an hour - including retirement - is a high-paying job. Many are working for a lot less.

It is hard to get sympathy for a $50+ job from the average joe out in the real world. Any fool can live on $40 an hour, gets real hard for someone on $18 an hour to live on $8. Better to cut the fat than really hurt those producing something for their few dollars.

The question is do we support an industry that was failing 4 years ago, when the ecconomy was good? What were they doing back then to improve? How will a few billion help out now that the ecconomy is tough? Losers are losers, and the auto industry in the USA has been a loser for some time. What is going to be different?

I feel for the folks that will be affected. This is not an easy question. The folks in Detroit will make their bed one way or another. This is their game. The people I feel sorry for are the suppliers working $20-25 jobs. They are the ones who will be crushed. Their jobs will go overseas. The Detroit folks will have their buddies get them some help, & get their $50 jobs right back.

We are darned if we do, darned if we don't.


Bottom line is that USA folks have too little money & need to adjust. This will mean less car sales for a period, and less expensive cars. USA auto workers can't deal with that very easily.

But, cars will still be built, and cars will still be sold. Folks will be paid to build cars.

The bankruptsy, reorginise, and reinvent the auto indsustry route might be painful short term, but it might produce a good storng valuable industry that carries the USA intot he future.

Giving then loans, then bailout, then more - will allow the bad business proactices & innefficiency to linger on and on, dragging our ecconomy down for decades. Rather than an asset, the auto indusrty will be a cancer to our ecconomy.

Either way, cars will be built, cars will be sold, people will be paid to build them.

How we get there?

--->Paul
 
Since this is a tractor forum, lets look at the history of farm equipment makers-no government bailouts of IH, Oliver, White, Minneapolis-Moline, Allis-Chalmers, etc., when the ag industry began consolidating. Same thing here-let them fail. There will be a certain amount of demand for US made products, and if the pie is sliced two ways instead of three,(or not sliced at all, if only Ford survives) fixed costs per unit are lowered, problem solved. As for supplier overlap and the domino effect, if a company currently supplies Ford and GM and GM goes away, Ford should need more product.Again, there is only a fixed amount of product to be sold, and we need to consolidate production to the point that number makes money for the survivors-anything else is money down a rathole. Not going to be pretty, but necessary.
 
I think we should keep the Big 3 viable for a couple of reasons. First is the playing field is not fair. Those southern states, in order to attract the foriegn companies have given billions in tax breaks and low interest loans. Also Detroit pays for retire health care, The foriegn makers shift this to the taxpayers. Also the products they produce are matching quality with anything in the world and the labor costs are becoming competative. Finally I think a demostic auto industry is critical for our national security. I would be concerned if all are tanks, trucks and armoured vehicals were built by companies headquartered in Japan or Germany.
 
I don"t think most people understand how far reaching this problem is. Almost every town in every city in every country has people on the GM,Ford, or Chrysler payroll in one way or another. Worldwide, almost every town. And guys are saying "let them go bankrupt"! A guy can say that and after it happens and he realizes his dad collects a pension from there, his brother in law works there, all his cousins work for suppliers, half his town relies on the pensions and health care. Now it is a problem. Everybody will be affected by this. State, federal, and city pensions will fall just like dominos. No taxes come in, no money for frivelous civil servant wages and benefits either.
 
The wage quoted was from the big 3's own information given to congress.

They are looking into filing for Ch. 11 bankruptcy which is not going out of business, but restructuring.
 
If they can knock $12,000 off the price and still survive, how many more vehicles would they have sold if they had done that months ago?
 
Does anyone know how much it costs to build a vehicle and how much of the "sticker" price is profit?

There are lots of ads on tv knocking off thousands from the sticker price. If they can take thousands off the price and still survive, that tells me those vehicles are way overpriced.
 
Job security ceased to exist years ago.

James and I both work for a community college. Typically, enrollment increases when times are bad because people go back to school to obtain new skills to find a job.

Enrollment at our colleges is up so our jobs are fairly secure, but that doesn't mean we are impervious to the recession.

We got done real dirty on a house about 18 yrs ago and have lived pretty much debt free since then.

Even though our jobs are somewhat secure, we are still cautious.
 
Since the nnalert control the congress (50+ democratic senators) and have controlled congress for some time, don't blame the nnalert. There were only 35 votes for the bail out. Where were the rest of nnalert?
 
I feel that there is no good way out. If they get bailout money, they'll burn that too. If they file Ch. 11, yes there will be severe layoffs and ripples all throughout the nation and the financial situation will get much worse before it gets better.

There are several companies that have come back strong after a ch. 11 and my dad used to work for one of them (Safety Kleen). He worked his way up and eventually was put on the chopping block because he was on of the higher paid guys. Got laid off 2 months before his 10 years were up so he got screwed out of his pension and other bonuses.

It's been more than 10 years since this happened and they're doing pretty good again. They re-organized and have their sh*t togther.

I have been working for a shop for 5-6 weeks now that makes foundry tooling. While the shop is feeling the effects, they are abel to adapt and seek out other jobs that let us float by until the economy picks up.

The bottom could still fall out and I'd be out of work, but for now the company is still doing ok and is working on 4 big contracts that would amount to 75% of what this past year's sales were. Those jobs would only last until April/May, so it's looking good till then. Hopefully the sales team can keep it up. If our shop depended solely on foundry work, they probably would have folded a couple months ago.

There was one set of tooling they were doing for one of the big 3 which has since been abandoned. The company lost several hundred THOUSAND dollars of profit from that job, but they're still open.

Donovan from Wisconsin
 
I would be surprised if the cost of living here in Michigan is much different than Iowa. GM's problems are being brought on by poor sales - even the foriegn makes are down 30 - 40%. Right now few people are buying new vehicles. And having credit jacked up that people have to have credit scores of 700+ doesn't help. Nearly half of the customers who come in can't get financing. And the $51 per hour must include benefits. Top pay for a UAW electrician is $32. And that's the highest in the plant. New production workers are making $14, with a 401K, limited benefits.
 
Hear hear!!! Seems like back in 2000, people thought he was gonna be conservative, so he got elected, even though he ran unopposed (against AlGore). In 2004, he had showed himself to be something other than conservative, but he got re-elected because, again, he ran unopposed (against John Kerry). Be nice if we could find someone like Ronald Reagan again, or even better, someone like Margaret Thatcher.
 
How do you think this is going to if at all effect your families?

The entire country will feel this one no matter which way it goes. I think what most people fail to understand is we're in a new era. Your lifestyle will change if it already hasn't. The central bank and the world bank has a plan. Only thing is we don't know what the plan is. We will find out and it will be to late when we do. I think it already is.

On a side note: It's very impressive the number of post in this thread. Lots of thoughts and opinions. Thinking back to 2003 it sure would have been something to see each one here express their opinion on contractors in Iraq making 3 times what the American military personal make. Then after Katrina I know of one local company that took 4 fuel tanker trucks down there and stayed 28 days and came back with $5.5 million. It seems for 8 years the money (our money) has been flowing by the trillions and not a peep about any of that. But let an "American" worker try and get a little help in some bad times and almost the entire country is ready to let them fall off the cliff. Just remember every action will have a reaction and every non action can have a reaction too in this situation. We may get far more than we bargin for.Be it positive or negative. Hang on cause we haven't found the bottom yet.
 
I would guess that the actual material and labor cost would be less then half if retail price.
However, one has to consider the cost of machinery and the company property. I'm sure if they doubled their money it wouldn't be enough.
 
I would guess that the actual material and labor cost would be less then half retail price.
However, one has to consider the cost of machinery and the company property. I'm sure if they doubled their money it wouldn't be enough.
 
Here is an idea remove all the taxes on any automotive related items, employee,sales workmen comp., road and corperate. I imagine it would amount to more than the bail out. Only problem is our government would then have to file chapter 11 and that would be ashame.
 
"Be curious to hear from posters who will NOT be affected by current economic crisis or whose income and companies they work for are growing. Anybody out there in THOSE circumstances?"....I work for a drug store chain, part of a team that helps to automate computer opertaions and related depts. We have added thousands of stores since I started in 1991. This year they claim we'll add another 300-400 stores. Last year or two we've added 500-600 new stores per year. Wall street hit us hard a few quarters ago. Upper mgmt decided we needed to "rewire" the company. I don't recall the exact wording, but no one is safe from the axe. Store payroll hours have been cut. Rumors have it our "in-house" repair services (store computer repairs, store HVAC mainly), our 1st level store call repair center, potentially our 1st level network call center, all may be outsourced. One of the things that were cut was the company Christmas gift. It was based on length of sevice. Last year I got $100 b/4 taxes. This year its gone. I kinda wonder if the upper boys bonuses will be cut(yea right).

I prolly shouldn't say this out loud, but im not to worried about a layoff. There are only 5 of us on the team w/an open position that will not be filled. Even if they outsourced the computer room, I would still be somewhat needed for the automation at a new place. A le-a-zon(sp?) tween the company and the "new" computer room. Actually, the same kinda thing happened in the mid-80's to early 90's. Back then I was cut at one place (1982 buyout-800 people were duplicate functions), was kept at another(1990-Monkey Wards downsize), was kept at a third(1991-buyout but all IT people were retained).

Have fun.....don t. .....
 
I have no problem with the so called BailOut but: Is the United States Government being asked to furnish Money to help, GM Austraila,Great Briton,Sweden,Mexico,Brazil,Argentina,Canada etc. recover from the Economic Catastrophy they are in ? Ford and Chrysler have thier hands out too and they are a world wide function also.I know I have been reminded that Canada has been asked for help also but has the rest of the World been approached for aid? I hear nothing in the News to in lighten the Citizens of the United States of this concern.JC
 
I'd ask the folks here who think the auto workers [who are actually making $26-$28 an hour before taxes] need to take a pay cut...if THEY are willing to take a pay cut, too.

Because if the autoworkers take a pay cut, the guy at the grocery store gets a pay cut, too. So does the guy at the home improvement store, and the guy at the furniture store. After all, if they guy in the auto factory isn't remodeling his basement and buying furniture and such for it, the furniture company and the home improvement store aren't making as much money, either...which means their employees have less to spend as well. Since 1 in 3 [or was it 3 in 10?] American jobs are related to the auto industry, how many of YOU are willing to take the pay cut that will surely come, should the auto workers take a pay cut?

Think about it long and hard before you answer.

Autoworkers took a large step toward reducing automakers' "legacy costs" when they agreed to a new, lower wage scale for new hires in their most recent contract. So the guys hired in to replace the folks who are now making $26-28 an hour will start out making $12 an hour instead of $22. Given time, the system would've helped "fix itself," with folks working for about half of what current employees make.

Would YOU work for half your current pay? If not, they why do you think autoworkers should?
 
Unions didn"t "let" them setup without trying to unionize- but note which factories are in right to work states and which are in must join union to work states. The Japanese companies set up in states with politicians NOT dependant on unions to get elected. California Toyota plant(X GM) is mminor exception but the Toyota people said no union work rules when they purchased plant, told state politicians that if they tried to pressure Toyota that Toyota would go elsewhere and the state could try to make cars. Note Toyota Tundra made in Texas. Canada doesn"t have big medical bills for retirees and the workers there in Ford and GM plants are union- car makers pay something like a 17.5% VAT tax ( Canadians- this is info from previous posts- correct if wrong) like other business and some of that goes to health care and government general funds. The government support for foreign cars some people refer to is often the national health care and pensions - every busines contributes some and various taxes not directly related to vehicle sales provides other funds- note England gas taxes are only about 1/2 for road and highway use- the other 1/2 is specified for some pension and health care bysides general revenue, this was pointed out when the tax relief for fuel was proposed last year- old people pensions would have to be cut, council housing got a few cents from each liter tax for fuel oil, national health ambulance service got a couple pennies- politicians voting to cut road tax would have some cold, sick old people show up at parliment demanding new government. Chrysler has been sold before, GM can sell another plant to Toyota, Ford has already mortgaged their main buildings. I want some bailout money for suppliers of parts for my Kaiser made DJ5- think I"ll get it? nnalert have a couple years of control of all main branches of legislature- they can straighten it out if honest(but consider where external_link learned his politics) or lose house and senate to honest(?) nnalert running on a "Actually hang or shoot the nnalert that caused the problem to restore public confidence". Enough cussin before I"ve had my coffee. RN
 
I don't think people realize how much it will destroy our economy as it is right now if GM goes under. Here in Mich there is 7-10 jobs linked to 1 Big 3 job. Out side MI probabally 3-5 jobs per 1 big 3. But as Buzzman72 put it you don't realize how many people are linked to the big 3, untill they are jobless.

You that chant "let them fail" say the same thing after GM goes under, and your family members that have a pension with GM and they worked 30 yrs for now have NOTHING, no house, and no health care.
one final note, God for bid we have another world war, who is going to make our munitions and war materials? Toyota, KIA, Hundai? I don't think so.
 
ALL of the employees of the companies are to blame for the mess.
ALL GM employees should (must) take a 20% pay cut to make it look like they all care about cutting costs.
I would love to see Warren Buffett buy up all the GM stock and then say to all at Gm "it is my way or the highway" and of course fire the top executives.
Gm has some great cars and trucks, I know cause I bought 2 new Chevy cars last year.
It is a shame that the company is run like a circus.

Yes GM and Ford should get several billion in loans to keep them afloat and have the top managers get a $1--year salary.
 
Very well said!! If the autoworkers take a pay cut will the senators and congressmen take one as well? I think not.
 
Maybe all those minimum-wage workers from the "service sector" can make the war materiels in the restaurant buildings...since there won't be any factory buildings left, because the real estate is "too valuable" to let some "old manufacturing site's" buildings stand in the way of another condominium complex or office tower.
 
I work for one of the Big 3 but am now laid off. I wouldn't give them the bailout money even though it will mean the loss of my job and big changes for my family. This past year I helped strip an existing engine line out of our plant and sent it to be reinstalled in Michigan. The machines were installed and are up and running. Up until a few weeks ago, they were planning to rip all those machines out of the plant in Michigan and send it back to be reinstalled here. They then retooled a whole line to make a new V8 engine and mothballed the equipment after paying to have the work done.How can they waste tens of millions like that? Would a bank loan you money if you ran your affairs like that?
 
I understand another 150 billion had to be added for pet projects to get enough votes to approve the 700 billion. What's another 30 billion to save all those jobs even for a little while?
 
What you're describing is exactly right. The opposite of "trickle down". When the worker does good all do good. As the middle class goes away all suffer and your example is perfect. Here in mid MI ther are plenty of examples where towns are decimated by loss of good paying jobs. And it really doesn't matter where those jobs come from. When they're gone the effect ripples out. Now, do I advocate "socialism"? No. But do you let your country fail just to prove a partisan point?!! I, a life long conservative nnalert was saddened Nov 4th when the nnalert had their a$$ handed to them. But I am sickened today to say that I am a nnalert. When I saw that sen from the south say, and with a straight face, that the automaker bailout was a "HUGE" bailout, I was sickened. The J@ws in the banks got $700 bil without a wimper, but the blue collar guy has to beg.
 
Just a case of trickle down. Sure the car companys will take a beating but look at all the vendor who are contributing to the finished product. It takes a real dip down
 
Fact is there is more auto procduction in the US than there is demand so someone is going to have to drastically scale back or quit making autos.Thats just the way capitalism works the best keep going and the worst get run out of business when demand slackens.I guess if this political climate had been around in the 1940's we'd still be bailing out Horse Collar factories.And while they're cutting off bailout $$$ they can cut the Welfare Farmers loose too
 
Nancy there were 40 nnalert, 10 nnalert and 2 independents voting yes...voting NO were 4 nnalert and 31 nnalert.There were 4 nnalert not voting and 8 nnalert not voting and for YOUR AND EVERYONE THAT TALKS ABOUT nnalert IN CONTROL INFORMATION, IT TAKES 60 YES VOTES TO ADVANCE A BILL...



MAY GOD BLESS THE USA
 
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