O.T.--Solution for Big 3 ?

I suggest the all get together and combine the big three auto makers and name the corporation.

CHRYsler FORd GM--

"CHRY-FOR-GM"

No bail out will save them long term unless they make changes that they haven"t even come close to thinking about yet. Let the UAW try and bail them out and keep the government and OUR money out if it. People who live within their means can borrow money for a new car.... they just don"t want too. At least one of the big three should have failed years and years ago.

A bankruptcy for all 3 would be bad in the short term but in the long term it would be great to throw the UAW out on their *ss and get new motivated workers. The executive bonuses, salaried bonuses and company cars are wayyyyy to lucrative for the employees.

According to a CBS News story I watched last night, that "$70 an hour" figure being tossed around for UAW-built cars at GM actually INCLUDES the costs of GM's retirees, which this story estimates to be about $35,000 a year per active UAW worker. So that part of the "$70 an hour," the current worker never sees in HIS pay or benefits.

But it IS a cost of labor to GM, and labor is labor, past or present. Had GM allowed for the costs of these retirees at the time the costs were accruing--that is, while these retired workers were still working--and put the money away then, we wouldn't be talking about whether or not to bail them out now...because that $35,000 per active worker per year would've been put away to cover the retirement costs, and not have been paid out as mulitmillion dollar bonuses to executives in years past.

And remember, not all UAW workers for the suppliers to the Big Three get the same type of retirement plan. I worked for a Tier 1 supplier under a UAW contract, and our retirement under our UAW contract was a 401(k) plan, not a defined-benefit pension. We didn't have a "job bank," either.

Anyway, here's a link to that CBS video...unfortunately, they stuck a 30-second ad in front of the actual news video, so be patient.
Hyundais Costs vs. GMs Costs

About 30 years ago, Chrysler was on the ropes. Then CEO, Lee Iacocca, agreed to work for $1 a year plus stock options. After receiving federal loan guarantees, Chrysler pretty much invented the minivan, the market for them took off, and they managed to pay off their loans early.

My suggestion is, if the Big Three do manage to get any kind of assistance, to put both the execs and the UAW members in the position Iacocca was in: make them take part of their compensation in company stock, so that they have more than a casual interest in the company's outcome. Make ESOP part of the compensation package, not just an investment option. If you have an ownership stake in the company, you're going to be less inclined to run it into the ground. When both labor and management are in that position, it's easier for them to come together and find solutions to problems between the two sides.

Yup, Big 3 are really concerned about their bottom line. So concerned the big execs gassed up their private jets and headed to D.C. Cost - $20,000 a pop. Then the media got wind of it and they had egg on their faces for about 20 seconds.

If they were really concerned about the bottom line, they would already have had a plan to "live within their means" instead of getting caught with their pants down, excuse me - hands out and Congress demanding a plan.

I do not think they should be bailed out.

Better yet, as was posted earlier, let the oil industry with their world record profits bail them out. After all, its in the oil industry"s best interest to see that there are more and more vehicles on the road.

Oil industry's not gonna bail them out,because the oil industry doesn't care whether the cars that use their products are built in Korea, Japan, China, India, or the US....they're still gonna sell all the product they can produce.

Its really simple let one fail and the business that still have will flow over the other two making them a viable business.
I could care less if we had less autos to pick from just as long as they are well built and i can get in and out with my cowboy hat on.
Walt
PS looks bad for GM

All you are going to do is kill them with kindness. Best to let nature take it's course and weed out the weak and leave the strong.
The companies got into thier problems due to several factors. A couple are.
#1 the economy will never slow down and sales will never slow down.
#2 too many managers with too many duplicate pet projects. GM doesn't need more than about 6 basic chassis to cover about 9 models in total.

(quoted from post at 13:30:46 12/04/08) A bankruptcy for all 3 would be bad in the short term but in the long term it would be great to throw the UAW out on their *ss and get new motivated workers. The executive bonuses, salaried bonuses and company cars are wayyyyy to lucrative for the employees.

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The UAW is a dinosaur whose days are numbered. The handwriting is on the wall and cost of labor will become competitive. The corporate jets, perks, etc. are a red herring. Eliminate them all AND EVEN IF WORKERS WORKED FOR FREE, the WHOLE auto industry would still be in trouble. Not an excuse, just looking at the facts. The Big 3 were heavy in Big SUVs and trucks when the gas crunch hit. Imports/transplants produce more fuel efficient cars. Then gas started to drop at the same time that the credit crunch hit. So even if people wanted to start buying cars, they couldn't get a loan. Look at Toyota or Honda sales. They're tanking too. Sales are dropping at unprecedented rate. Industry was primed to build 17mil cars or so, now the market is pegged to be around 12 mil or even 10 mil.

Thus, all the bridge loans in the world won't help unless sales improve. I'd love to see the assumptions in the plans that the Big 3 presented to Congress. Especially those related to sales volumes for 2009.

I agree with other posters. One of the Big 3 will cease to exist. Probably Chrysler due to a merger with GM in a year or so. They were trying to do just that when the credit crunch hit. Ford is ok for now, but they had already mortaged the company for 19 billion last year. They're burning through that like crazy. Right now, Ford is all about PR and image. Their quality is up, they're telling Congress (and the public) they're ok, in order to pick up market share by looking like the strongest of the 3. However, if any one went Ch 11, the dominos would start to fall within hours and there won't be enough bankrupcy judges in the country to be assigned to all the businesses that would file Ch 11 as well (including the one I work for).

Should be a wild ride.

The statement that ticked me off was"I will work for $1. a year "if" you bail us out" So then? To much power in one spot. The a$$hole cant lose anything. Tell him get his but out of GM and we will bail the company out. So long buddy. We aint feeding you anymore.

I agree that Rick Wagoner should be taken outside and have his teeth kicked in. This clown cant do anything right. He needs to get with the program and layoff the dead weight, fire the top executives and realign the company. Oops!!!!!!!!! I forgot he is a buffoon.

My son works for a company that furnishes parts for the big three, although he himself does not coment, he does repeat what the UAW say.

They coment on the government crop subsidies, spending two billion a week to assist another country. He also claims that the UAW wonder why their co workers are getting double what they make as they watch the news.

My son argued that does every farmer get over a million dollars from the government? or just some? I pointed him to EWG database and told him to look it up for himself.

My son used to help me in construction, and then hung drywall for a living before he landed his current job. He now has a very good job, and I never have asked about his income. That being the fact, he certianly says that some of those jobs that those workers do takes a special kind of person to do. He also comented that anyone who thinks you go to Detroit and ask for a job and overnight you make big dollars??? Well he did mention the words dumb A$$e$. He said most that do get hired don't make the grade. Alot get a few hours a week, and maybe you have a job next week and maybe not. This he claimed goes on for years before getting locked into the union. They have ways to weed out a very very large percent, and they can do it regardless of the unions.

He also said that once you do make the top of the hill it is almost impossible to get fired even if you should be.

(Bouncing backward here) Some of his buddies at Detroit are very ticked off at the news coverage, and would like to have every workers wages accounted for, as not a single one of his buddies makes even half of what the news media claims.

A coment he brought to my attention was about the retired workers pention. Well actualy he was debating his point of view with a farmer friend that has just retired and sold his farm for probably twice what it can pencil out raising #3.00 corn. My son pointed out that after a couple years the new buyer should cut the payments in half like the farmer suggested the big three should do. Son said a contract is a contract signed by two people, and regardless the retired farmer gets his farm back and gets to keep all the money that he would have recieved. So my son suggested that the retired auto worker should get to recall all the cars they built then?

I have to admit my son did change my mind a little, but I'm still not certian they should get a bail out unless the government has a big say so, and makes conditions. My son leveled the playing field with his next question, and we all started laughing as he nailed it pretty good.

YOU want the US government to basicly manage a business? YA... how well has that been workin out so far, seven trillion in debt????? He said that is probably more cernals of corn that the retired farmers farm produces in one year.

NE IA

I think most of you agree the big three have been mismanaged, especially GM. And the UAW has been an albatross. But there is a lot at stake here. The people who would get hurt the most are the workers and retirees. But we should do what is in the best interest of our country. I think for our national security we need to keep this manufacturing sector. There will need to be a balance on part of the sacrifices to be made by the employee and taxpayers. I am afraid our Democratic controlled Congress will be tilted in favor of the UAW. In any case this may be last chance for any of the big three to survive.

Gm an others has not yet faced reality. Last year Gm was blowing off about there cars are first to be able to use gas an e85. Well my 02 caravan has sticker on says e85 can be used. Couple weeks ago they were going to buy Chrysler. How when couple days later they an others are crying for bail out. Went to Wash an were basically told no. Day or two later they realize they need to do what they should have done before. Gm has for sale Opel in Europe. Ford trying divest itself of its share of Masda.Probably trying to raise cash other ways also. Also got letter from conservation distric in Pa an they have evaluated 4 hybrid cars-Honda Civic 42 45 mph not necessary to plug in over nite! Ford Escape an Saturn Vue both suvs-Escape24-26 ---Vue rarely over24mph. Also one of techs has a Toyota P rius -owned it 3 yrs already has 76000 miles on it an an gets 45 mph with it.I believe i seen one new cars driven to Washington averaged 34 mph on trip today an needs to be pluged in .Also J ICase had a coe for long time who had idea only he new what company would produce an would not listen to what market wanted.Almost ended company . Unfortunately 3 big companies are now reaping same problems an being behind is one of there problems .Wish them well though as i do drive 2 of there products

I would lmao.if they went belly up. They could of built 50mpg cars years ago if they had wanted to.Instead {by their own admission]They built big gas guzzeling road hogs.Lots of them are 4 wheel drive and never see the backwoods or even a mud hole cause they dont want to get it dirty.30yrs ago the VW rabbit got 45-50 mpg,US auto makers cant even get close to that 30yrs later.Nope,I dont feel bad for them,.they brought it on themselves. Hoss

Those old boys knew what they were doing when they each flew in to D C! The only way they will be able to get union concessions is bankruptcy. Congress will bail them out.

Do you think that retirement money may have been put away in the stock market?

I believe if the three U.S. auto makers go down someone else will step up to the plate and take there place. If your not buying a new car then you have the money. So the money is still in the U.S. but not in auto makers hands. Maybe some one like cargil or Rockifeller will come in and buy them. I don't know who but someone in this country has enough money to do it.

Have any of us thought about this in detail. So you know I'm not for or against the bail out. Yet I wonder how many of us might need parts for the vehickles we do own, not to mention the resale value of what we own if they do go underside skyward.

And I don't have any idea if the bailout would keep them around anyway.

Maybe aftermarket parts would keep up with the pace?

Just food for the thinker.

North East IA

u guys dont get it LOAN THEY WANT A LOAN AND IF U HAY HAULIN-HORSE FARMING SOB'S WANTED 2 DO IT WITH A 45MPG VOLKSWAGON RABBIT THEN WHY IS THAT NOT WHAT YOUR DRIVING, I AGREE THE BURBANITS THAT ABSOLUTLY HAD 2 HAVE A 4 WL-DRIVE TRUCK HAVE DRIVEN THIS MARKET INTO BEDLAM, BUT THATS WHAT WAS SELLING, I REMEMBER WHEN I BOUGHT MY 1ST NEW TRUCK IN 1986 ,4WD WAS NOT THE NORM,
THRU THE 90'S THATS WHAT SOLD- BIG TIME THEN WHEN THE GAS WENT SKY HIGH ITS''' WHY DO YOUR TRUCKS GET SUCH CRAPPY MPG, NOW THE OIL COMPANYS R RUNNING THE ETHANOL MARKET INTO THE GROUND {YOUR CORN PRICES} WHAT DO U THINK WILL HAPPEN TO PRICES ONCE THATS DONE 5-OR MORE ????WAIT I C YOUR POINT, WE'LL GIVE ALL THIS 700 BILLION TO THE
BANKS AND MORTGAGE COMPANYS WITH OUT QUESTION, OR OVERSIGHT,, ---AIG--CITIGROUP,,,ECT HOW MANY OF U YOU KNOW SOMEONE WHOS JOB, RELIES ON THESE COMPANYS BEING AROUND, IF EVERY BODYS OUT OF WORK WHERE DOES THE TAX MONEY FOR THEM COME FROM???????

You people seem to forget there are new auto companies opening and being built in THIS country and with AMERICAN workers and AMERICANS will be manning the factorys. Just what our government has been wanting , right?? Then the same "Government" goes and pumps billions to the direct competitors of these new factories. The NEW factories are doing something right , the OLD factories are FAT , make that OBESE and lethargic. CAN WE SPELL F R E E - E N T E R P R I S E - S Y S T E M ?????? If the SYSTEM is let to work I T W I L L !!! If our "broke" government gets this LOAN from CHINA to bail out these %&*#$%$^&& then does China get to REPOSESS when it isn't re-paid????? It's the ole "fox guarding the henhouse" scenario. Our government is as poorly managed as the automakers they are attempting to bail out. This country has to be the laughing stock of the world right now. Those other countries will never have to fight us , in a while they will be able to BUY us for pennies on the dollar!! This is what happens when all the high school student council presidents finally end up running this country! They had no common sense back then and less now.

AMMEN TO THAT,,,,WHAT YOU FLEW HERE ON A JET ?HOW
XORBERANT,, WHAT DID THE PRES---E L E C T- JUST BLOW ON HIS CAMPAIN--- THATS WHAT I THOUGHT

The reasons American car companies made the big gas guzzler SUVs was because that is what Americans wanted. People weren't interested in samller fuel efficient cars till gas prices went up, then blasted the car companies for having supplied what consumers wanted rather than forcing them to buy smaller.

Yup, Prius gets 40mpg. My Ford Focus wagon gets 32mpg and has twice the room and better ride. Also costs several thousand less.

Truth is, it wasn't put away anywhere.

(quoted from post at 17:55:27 12/04/08) A coment he brought to my attention was about the retired workers pention. . . My son pointed out that after a couple years the new buyer should cut the payments in half like the farmer suggested the big three should do. Son said a contract is a contract signed by two people, and regardless the retired farmer gets his farm back and gets to keep all the money that he would have recieved. So my son suggested that the retired auto worker should get to recall all the cars they built then?

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Ask your son a question for me.

What percentage of their retirements will all those retirees get if the company goes bankrupt and/or ceases to exist.

Saw where the layed off workers get up to 95% of their salary. Any company stupid enough to agree to that does not deserve to be in business. Let them all go belly up and the Japanese buy their remians. Then we could get a decent vehicle. I have compared the American to foreign cars and the lack of quality in the American assembly is pathetic.

Do you know if they got help from the government to build these assembly plants, think where all the money goes..The big three asked for a bailout loan and guess what do they charge you 20 to 25 percent on money like the big credit card companies that just go handed a bailout..you think the US is in recession now just shut down all the big three and see how many jobs you you shut down..chain reaction all suppliers, all dealerships and all people who work at all those places..Think about all the billions we have spent to rebuild Iraq, for what?..what about the 108 acre embassy we have built over there with a GOLF COURSE in the desert..Yes the big 3 have miss managed..So file bankrupt chapter 11 and re lineament maybe these unions will think about what they have left...But does the BIG THREE need to be BOUGHT OUT BY A FOREIGN COUNTRY..NO NO NO PEOPLE BRAG ABOUT BUYING A CAR THAT WAS ASSEMBLED HERE , BUT NEVER THINK ABOUT HOW MUCH OF THAT MONEY LEAVES THE USA...GOD HELP US





MAY GOD BLESS THE USA