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Flipping Fordson

J

Judy Wearing

New User
I understand how the Fordson was apt to flip over, and I know it is a danger sometimes today -right?

How are other tractor models in the 1920s, and tractors today, engineered so they don't flip front over backwards??
 
Many vintage tractors had a high center of gravity which made them easier to turn over. If the tractor had a narrow front rather than the two front tires spread apart, that also made the tractor less stable.
 
Flipping over backwards is a function of pulling point geometry. All equipment is dangerous if not understood. tractor attachment points and equipment today, and from the mid fifties (especially mounted equipment 3point and fast hitch systems basically prevent flipping. Low to the ground utility style tractors are also best for side hills. MF and JD and IH and AC and Oliver are all good. JimN
 
Also, depending on the job at hand, more tractors nowadays carry front end weights.

Then, too, draft-control hitches, and other hitches come into play by pulling from in front of the rear axles so the pulling force has more of a tendancy to hold the front end to the ground.
 
A corvette looks like it's moving even when it's standing still,

and Fordson's look like they are tipping over backwards even when they are standing still.

Tall, short wheel base.
 
All tractor models of the 1920's had the same problem and potential of flipping as the Fordson.

In the early 1930's Harry Ferguson Invented/ Engineered his now standard 3-point "Ferguson" System.

His prototype tractor was know as the Black Tractor. This tractor was basically a Fordson Design with Ferguson's 3-point system.

Harry Ferguson then worked with David Brown and had a short lived relationship producing a tractor.

Harry Ferguson, born in 1884, started experimenting with tractors and plows in his early years. Harry is an important person in tractor history, being the inventor of the 3-point hitch. It was dubbed the "Ferguson System". After meeting with Henry Ford in 1938, over a handshake it was agreed that the 3-point hitch system would be installed on the Ford tractors being produced at that time (Ford 9N from 1939-1942 and the 2N from 1942-1947). These tractors had the "Ferguson System" insignia on them and Harry Ferguson received a share of the profits.

In 1947 Henry Ford's Grandson officially terminated this "handshake agreement". The Ford 8N tractors that were being produced around this time no longer carried the "Ferguson System" insignia. Ferguson sued the Ford Motor Co. and eventually won a settlement.

In what some say is retaliation, Harry Ferguson began producing his own line of tractors, beginning with the TO-20 in 1948. These tractors looked suprisingly similar to the Ford 9N and 2N and sported the 3-point hitch.

The 3-point Ferguson system is the engineering development that prevents the tractor from flipping. No one but H. Ferguson had it until the 1950's then as Ferguson's paten time ran out John Deere, Allis Chambers, IH and the others made it the industry standard.
v9544.jpg

How the Ferguson System works
 
I would like to mention that steel wheels were known for having good traction and all of the sudden losing the traction and digging a deep hole and have little to know time to react to it. Rubber tires have a slower change from having great traction, to starting to slip a little, slipping alot and finally spinning out. A rubber tire would most likely start to spin a little as the front end came up therefor give the operator a chance to realize a possible problem. A steel wheel may never loose a bit of traction and go ahead and tip a tractor over. I have seen pictures of Fordsons on the top of there operators, and would not want to see that happen to anyone.
 
The early fordson wasn't as bad as the later ones. The early ones had the pinion on top of the rear gear but it was later changed to the bottom because on top it produced too much heat for the operator. The mounted plow was what got a lot of men killed, when it was lifted coming out of the plow furrow....James
 
The narrow front tractor being more stable and less likely to roll over is a myth and not supported by roll over tests. Thinking that the wide front is less likely to roll over is a false sense of security. Looking at the picture below you can see that the pivot point is just a pin and the pivot stop is way past the roll over point.

WheelchairMagColor003-vi.jpg



Once the tractor weight reaches an angle past the center of gravity it is going over. Wide or narrow front.
If you think that this is incorrect then you should pretend you have a narrow front when working a side hill with a wide front to be on the safe side.
 
Here is a little sketch on why pulling type tractors flip. Flipping is/was/ and still is a danger with any pulling situation.

If you wish I would be willing to help you out with sketchs and explination why/how a tractor would flip for your project.

e-mail me

Jeff-oh
r4650.jpg
 
You guys are awesome! I wish I had a forum like this for every chapter...heck, i wish I had an antique tractor so I could talk to ya everyday.
 
Sorry Dick,

I must dis-agree with you. I agree the front axle will tilt vey far but it cannot go over sideways without, going over the outer wheel (out rigger) or colapsing the front axle linkage. If the design is not strong enought to take is load it is indeed not as safe in that situation. And I agree that the axle does not react the side roll mode until its movement bottoms out. You are right on there.

As a mental thought... what if the fron axle were 15ft. wide? Evenwith this muck rocker movement is that not more stable than a tricycle?

Yes I will agree the some high clearance tractors like the AC B shown may be designed such that at the point the axle bottoms out it can already be past the sideways rollover point. But even then to turn upside down it needs to pick itself up and over that out rigger point.
 
That's a nice little pictograph and all... but it's incorrect, and so is the YT article you linked in your other post.

The heart of a draft control system, whether it be a ferguson type with top link sensing or a lower link/bending bar type is that as a sudden load is encountered (increased draft), the system will immediately cause the plow to lift. This will excerbate the problem by causing a large weight transfer to the rear wheels, giving a large increase in traction to keep moving. The other consequence of this lift is that the weight transfer will lift the front end, perhaps off the ground...

The only safety feature that I'm aware of in the ferguson system is a lift cylinder safety valve. This is nothing more that a poppet type relief and whenthe pressure behind it exceeds it's spring force, it opens. This is several hundred psi above the nominal system pressure. It does protect the lift system from shock loads, but if a plow hooks something in the ground, the shock is lateral rather than vertical. It may translate into some downward thrust on the arms, but not enough to pop the safety valve in most situations.
Where the safety valve does open is when you're bouncing down the road and hit a bump... and the plow bounces and comes down hard. The safety valve will open to release that shock pressure and lower the plow.
There is very little function difference in safety between a system operating in draft mode and a system operating in 'position' mode. IF anything, I'd give the advantage to position mode.

If you want to 'see' how a ferguson top link sensing system works, set the system for draft.
Lower the arms half way and start the tractor. Now take a crow bar and apply pressure to the top link rocker in the same manner as a plow would compress the top link with increased draft. The arms will rise...

The main reason that tractors flip over is a combination of inadequate front weight or a high draft point/hitch point rather than pulling from the bottom of the axle housing.

Rod
 
There"s another question here I"ve never understood: was it really impossible to design rollbars or a "cage" (not a real cage like for a canary, but a two or more rollbar protection system rather than just one bar)in the 20s/30s etc...or was it that anyone who bought/made one would be considered wimpy by all his friends, that if you didn"t risk your neck a little you weren"t a "real farmer"???
While I"m not experienced with tractors, I collected a lot of old paper, and don"t recall seeing any ads for rollbars or pics of any from that time.
 
The early Fordson's were very light on the front end, so only a small counterweight to tipping backwards, the drawbar was attached to the back of the differential housing, so only little leverage of the pull on the drawbar to stop the front rising when compared with tractors where the drawbar was located well below the rear axle. They had a worm drive to the differential so lots of leverage in transforming engine power to overturning moment about back axle (maybe the gear reductions on other tractors will have a similar efect). The later Fordon's had rear fenders which extended well behind the tractor (with tool boxes inside) in an endeavour to prevent full overturning.
The Fordon had the other problem with the drawbar in that it was located well ahead of the back of the rear wheels so that on sharp turns it was possible to get something like the beam drawing a set of harrows picked up by the rear wheel lugs and carried up over the operator. The early Fordoson tractor had no fenders.
With respect to tipping sideways, a wide front is no different from a narrow front end until the wide front axle meets some part of the tractor frame when the distance out to the offset front wheels starts to come into play. Up to that point the wide front is still a pivot, like a narrow front, the only difference is the pivot point is a little higher, at the axle pivot point, not on the ground as it is in narrow front.
 
There"s another question here I"ve never understood: was it really impossible to design rollbars or a "cage" (not a real cage like for a canary, but a two or more rollbar protection system rather than just one bar)in the 20s/30s etc...or was it that anyone who bought/made one would be considered wimpy by all his friends, that if you didn"t risk your neck a little you weren"t a "real farmer"???
While I"m not experienced with tractors, I collected a lot of old paper, and don"t recall seeing any ads for rollbars or pics of any from that time.
 
A contributing factor is too small a tractor for too large a load.
On down hills the load could push the tractor sideways.
Uphill the tractor would stall then flip when the clutch was released in a lower gear.
Some of those tractor were missing drawbars so the draft load would be tied onto a too high three point hitch. Or onto the upper link attachment point.
Pulling a load such as a tree or log then suddenly snagging the butt of towed log on a stone,stump etc. That will flip a tractor.
Of course the old classic transmission driven pto tractor with a bushhog is a killer. The intrepid driver pushes the clutch at the edge of a pond, ditch or cliff. The inertia in the spinning bushhog blales drives the pto shaft, thus the tractor transmission and flip.
New and pro operators in a hurry, careless or tired flip any tractor while driving too close/too fast near ditches, ponds, road banks etc.
 
I never drove a vintage Fordson. Perhaps a Dexta and a Major but I have heard some of the vintage Fordsons had a clutch that did not always release promptly. Did you ever consider also that the Fordson was very short. I jave 2 utility tractors MF 165 and IHC 574 but do not feel as secure with them as I do with a fsrm tractor. Roll overs occur when the tractor is out of control. Controlis maintained by brakes clutch and steering.
 
As to the narrow front tractors tipping sideways, here is something to think about - have you ever heard of a camera "quad pod" with four legs to hold a camera up?

A tri-pod or three-legged stand is inherently more stable...

Only times I've heard of people tipping a narrow front tractor would be with a loader on it (bucket raised up) and turning with too much speed. I know of several wide front tractors with loaders that have been tipped as well because of too much speed, bucket lifted, too much weight in the bucket.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSdx9S6XZ_I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip7ZMcEF_Co
 
You are partially correct. However, you are mixing modes of operation, between operation under regular loading and that of an ultimate load.

When an implement is mounted on the tractor there is a conflict of operation of the lift if the implement strikes an obstruction such as a root or a rock, the increased draft on the implement puts the hydraulic pump into operation tending to raise the implement out of the ground. The tendency then is for the implement to be raised out of the ground altogether but it may be so caught underneath a ledge of rock or under a root that it cannot raise. Great pressure will therefore be put on the rear wheels of the tractor which will tend to give them increased traction and lift the front wheels of the tractor off the ground. Thus either the implement or the connection may be broken or the front of the tractor will be raise off the ground and turn over backwards, possible causing a fatal accident.

To overcome this problem the Ferguson system reacts to an excess of draft on the implement due to striking an obstruction, the pump will automaticly be put out of operation. For example in the case of controlling an implement hydraulicly the excess of movement in the pump valve caused by striking the obstruction will move the valve so far that the release ports will be uncovered and allow the fluid to escape, thus automaticly releasing the lifting pressure. The safety valve (you described) is put on the delevery side of the pump. This safety valve may provide the two-fold purpose of acting as a safety valve in the ordinary way to prevent excessive pressures (as you describe) and it is also connected to the implement control mechanism so that under excessive draft such as is caused when striking an obstruction the safety valve will be opened and the pressure released, whereupon the weight on the rear wheels of the tractor will be automaticly reduced. This reduces the tractive effort and the wheels spin or slip on the ground, thus avoidingdamage to the implement or connections or danger to the operator through the tractor turning over rearwardly.

Thats how it works.
Jeff
 
I guess I might as well get my dog in this fight!

If the narrow front is just as safe as the wide front, how come 3 wheel atv's were outlawed? Just a thought.
 
Pulling from the a point above the axle is never a good idea as it does greatly increase the risk of overturning.

And yes the Ferguson System does operate as described for latteral shock loads. Again you are correct in normal operation pulling a implement through the ground the lift will rise or let the suction force pull the implement deeper. However, if an object is struck (shock load) the top link loads up in compression and pushes past the normal travel range, compressing that big spring on the back and the hydraulic pressure is released immediatly.

You are also correct in that the system does not rely on the compressive force of the top link to push the front down. It's main result is the loss of hydraulic pressure, by opening the pressure relief valve.

Jeff
r4651.jpg
 
About the only thing left to relate that hasn't been covered below is my bachelor uncle's experience. At some point in the little bit of evolution the Fordson saw, Henry Ford, in an attempt to prevent the back flips the fordson was famous for, installed the big fenders that stopped the tractor from going completely over on every Fordson sold. Prior to that they had been an option for $50 or so extra. My uncle was able to get one of the last new ones without that option. He was quite pleased that he had saved $50. The Fordson was not without it's little quirks. One of them being hard to start when hot. Another was having no brakes. Another was that, while idling, they had a bad habit of jumping into gear all on their own. Farmers who came in at noon for lunch and left them running would sometimes see them going across the lawn all on their own. My uncle had his Fordson sitting in the yard idling while he was working nearby. The Fordson, true to form, jumped into gear and headed straight for the silo. My uncle couldn't catch it before it plowed into the silo, climbed right up the silo and did one of it's famous back flips and, in spite of being made almost completely of steel, caught fire and burned beyond recognition. We all had a good laugh about that. My uncle went into town and bought another tractor.
 
If you take a look,you'll see that you don't need an old tractor to be on here. We prety much solve all the problems of the world everyday.
 

O K, as a small boy I drove a model F fordson tractor. It's main advantage was that it was cheap. It was hard to steer(at least for a small boy) and hard to start. It did not have turning brakes or any brakes at all except for the brake that worked when the clutch was pushed all the way down. I never saw it in a position likely to tip over. I question if it had enough hp to raise the front end. It was used to pull a Oliver 2 disc plow and a small Oliver smoothing harrow. The belt pulley was used to pull a wood cut off saw to make firewood. As mentioned above, there was no drawbar as such, just part of the rear end casting at the bottom with three holes. The center hole was worn more than the others. There was no other place to hook a load to higher up, unless for some reason you wrapped a chain around the axle, but we couldn't afford a chain anyway. The tractor does not have a high center of gravity and is not light on the front end. There is a large front axle assembly and a massive cast radiator, plus the steel wheels. As for the tractor not
spinning out, I remember this one spinning, but by
the time I remember it it was probably 20 years old and the cleats were well worn.


KEH
 
remember, it was very few years before that that cars and trucks were open to the weather. and every year there have been some improvements to cars trucks and tractors. But no one could think of everything at once.
 
You must be dealing with an anomoly isolated to the 'Ferguson' system then because this 'feature' does not exist in any way, shape or form in later Ford's.
I'm not going to comment any further on TO's, TE's, or 'N's because I've never worked on their hydraulics, but I am intimately familiar with later Fords and no such function exists...

Rod
 
I agree Dick, It is possible I suppose that in a very controlled test situation that when the wide front completes its pivot as one side goes, up that the lower tire and the stop would keep it from going the rest of the way, while a narrow front would not, but I would have to say that at that point it would already be beyond its tip point. I own 7 tractors, 2 wide and five NFE I've had three close calls in 40 years and none involved side hill operating and all three were on wide front tractors. It's my experience that ballasting and tread width and obviously driver care are the big factors.
 
Make no mistake about it. In low gear it would "worm" itself right back over itself. One contributing factor was that, on some of these backflips, the cause was after getting stuck, the farmer would chain a log or timber in front of one or both rear wheels. That was really asking for it. But, believe it, those little things did back flips and killed so many farmers that it was a constant worry of Henry Ford. He really wanted to help the farmer, not kill him. Henry never did make very much money on the tractors he built.
 
No, he bought a new 1937 WC Allis Chalmers including mounted cultivator and plow. He supplanted that tractor, however, with a brand new 1959 Ford 861. Now that was a great little but not so little (for that day) tractor. I will add that an English version of the Fordson was available in the late 30's and included a cultivating (narrow front wheel) model. Good places to look for pictures of these old tractors are in the old farm magazines such as Successful Farming, Prairie Farmer, Farm Journal, etc. Sometimes you see these old magazines at tractor/farm shows.
 
In a straight ahead tipping event, draw a line from the lower supporting rear wheel and the lower front wheel....on NF models that line will be nearer the center of gravity, hench more tipping moment. What is a puzzle is which design provides more accelerating forces when the steering is not straight ahead, like an inexperienced bicycle rider turning the wrong way in a tip. Also, front wheel drive aggressively steering the front may exacerbate the tendency to roll, even with wide front on near tip conditions.
Leonard.
 
The vast majority of American consumers refuse to be held accountable for their own misconduct, and blame their ineptitude one the inanimate machines that they are charged with controlling. Plus, you can sue whomever you'd like, for almost no reason at all. The lawyers and politicos make so much $ from it, you'll never see meaningfull tort reform. People roll over school busses and main battle tanks. Anyone who has ever been on the ragged edge has felt the point that they SHOULD have wised up. Wether or not the warning was heeded is the $50 question.
 
I think you would find that wide front tractors are less likely to tip. They aren't necessarly more stable... but consider this.
With a narrow front, when the tractor starts to tip over, it's pivot point is at the ground about the inside front wheel. With a wide front, it's still siting on your tripod, but the pivot point is 2 feet in the air at the axle pivot pin. Both tractors, probably in many situations will sit near their balance point when they're about to tip... but the difference is that the narrow front while pivoting at the ground has nothign to restrain it from going over once it starts to go. A wide front is still going to hit it's axle stop, and as such will move it's center of gravity away from the direction it's tipping. It may still go over depending on the forces and speed involved, but it would be slightly less likely to tip.
you're quite right in saying that there's been lots of wide fronts tip over though... there's been lots of both. Most of them as a result of a lack of common sense.

Rod
 
A narrow front end tractor will tip over easier than a wide front end tractor and the kind of tractor it is makes a lot of difference.If it sets high it will turn over easier than something like a Ford with a wide front end compared to say an M with a wide front end.Just watch somebody mow a bank with any tractor that will mow it,then try it with one that sets high with a narrow front end and tell me its the same.I have had one back wheel off the ground on my H with a loader on it on a little hump of gravel that a dump truck dumped in a pile that you can drive a Ford all over it and not even worry about it.If you think real hard about how you are going to do the job,a lot of times you can get the bank mowed,but you will have to go straight up and down with a tricycle front end,no matter who made it.

Some of the front end rearing up has to do with how much power you have besides what the others said.I know I was running a 1030 Case that is turned up and pulling a big disc.I was looking back at the disc and the front wheels hit a small washed out place like about the size of a road ditch and it pulled the front wheels off the ground when it crossed the ditch a foot in the air and carried them and I didnt even notice it until I turned around and tried to turn it straight and saw the wheels off the ground.That could happen in the past if you were looking back at what you were pulling and it came up on you especially in rough ground like I was in,and if they had steel wheels with lots of traction it could flip over.
 
i may as well throw 2 bits in here also. other tractor models from the 20s and newer didnt flip backwards because they had a proper drawbar and weight in the front.they would power out, spin out,but not flip backwards.you could bury the back end in mud and have the front end in the air and it wont flip over. that fordson goes in the volkswagon class, at least when they flip over they land back on their wheels!
 
I described is fitted to the end of the lift cylinder where it will directly release any excess pressure spikes in the lift cylinder independant of the control valve. It's entirely unrelated to anything else in the lift system.

The tractors I'm refering to, being 10 series Fords... if subjected to a massive draft load will either spin and dig in, rear up until their arms reach maximum height and the plow holds them there, or they plain outright stall. Alternatively, they may break something... but they won't go over backwards and they don't drop their arms.

Rod
 
Rod, I disagree with you on the your statements on the 3pt pictograph. You're right about the system wanting to lift the plow a bit when an obstruction is encountered. The design of the 3pt hitch also acts like a wheelie bar with mounted equipment. Having a mounted implement moves the pivot point in a rearward flip to the rearmost point of the implement. It's nearly impossible to have a rearward flip with mounted equipment.
 
Rod, I entirely respect your knowledge. The language in the above post is directly from Harry's own patent.

It is entirely possible that because of the lawsuit after the split ford had to change their design enough not to conflict with Ferguson that they lost this particular feature and that be why later Fords do not act exactly the same.

Also, I appologize, as I may have allowed my engineeing dander get up a little after a LONG day at work. Did not mean to start a competition of words.

It could br very interesting to explore how the various companies adopted the 3-pt system.

Jeff
 
Mainly tractors (of any description) are not driven on trails, in the woods, etc. at above 50 mph by 15 year olds,
 
You are mostly correct here with a word of caution. The 1940's, -50's and 60's era tractors do not have downward pressure on the hydraulic system. (I cannot speak for later technology) And as such will not prevent a rear flip as such. If the tractor does want to go over backwards then the implement will first rotate around the lower lift arms putting the upper link into compression. Then the inplement and lift arms will rotate around the lift arm attach points.

Finally the lift mechenism is usuall not strong enough to prevent a roll over if it's going to happen. The linkage will break or buckle (bend)before stopping a tractor.

My Thinking here is if you run a tractor up a tree the implement will not keep it from going over. (there is a photo of this an 8N verticle against an oak but I couls not find it)
 
(quoted from post at 05:43:34 10/03/08) do you know any specific 20s models that DIDN'T flip over?
Click to expand...

I guess I haven't heard of any IH 10-20 or 15-20 flipping over... or the big Titan and Mogul tractors, or the 8-16 IHC... but I haven't been around that long, either.

Seems like everyone remembers the Fordson for flipping over backward when the plow hit a rock, just the reputation they earned.
 
the mccormick 10-20 , 15-30, 22-36. have not even heard of these flipping backwards. these tractors are the ones that opened up our country pulling a breaking plow . they deserve to be given credit, because they were worked to death and then just parked all worn out, or just scraped. they were tough and got the job done.
 
What part do you disagree with?

The rear axle shafts still remain as the pivot point in a backwards roll over... but I certainly agree that most three point mounted equipment will prevent a backwards roll. Most tractors are sufficienly balanced such that as the plow or whatever is behind touches the ground, or the lift linkage reaches it's maximum height, then it will stop it's climb there. I've worked with one particular impliment... a three point Massey Ferguson trip bucket loader though... it would latch straight up in the air. If you happened to upend the tractor with that attached then the tractor could go over backwards. Most times not, but in certain situations. I believe my old man siad he nearly did that a long time ago. Always warned me about it, but I never had it happen.
Most backflips happen as a result of someone pulling from too high of a hitch point, and in that situation there is nothing to prevent a backflip...

Rod
 
Last year, I saw a Farmall M flip over backwards at a tractor pull.The driver was bent like a pretzel,but he got out O.K.
 
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