acidic soild- organic material vs liming

trying to keep costs down. I have heard it said before that soil ph is more crucial when using commercial fertilizers and having lack of organic matter. True, I dont know, but it would be really great if I could get by with out the lime and use cow and poultry manure, and continuos adding of organic matter, such as growing a green manure crop, leaving small grain straw for soil build up rather than saving for straw. Feild I am wondering about had a ph of 5.2 or so. I am putting rye in this fall and planning for corn in 2010, 2-3 tons per acre lime isnt gonna be cheap and since it is rennted ground I want to be cost smart. Any advice on this subject.

My lowest ph is 6.4, most are touching 7 or above, so I have little working knowledge of your problem....

However, 5.2 is quite low, might just need the lime to get anywhere?

--->Paul

Dave when I put lime on rented ground I get a five year agreement with the landowner.

If for any reason I do not farm it for 5 years a get money back prorated per year for the five years.

If I only farm it for 3 years I get 2/5 of my lime expense back.

Have only had to exercise this agreement once.

A son of the woman that owned the farm decided he wanted to farm so they paid me back for my 2 unused years.

Some leases are set up so that the landlord pays for lime. I have both.

And yes you do need lime. Herbicides need the proper PH to work well also.

Gary

Well then I may as well toss it on there before I plant this fall then. How deep does it have to be worked in? I have the feild rough disked right now, but it will need 1 more pass anyway before it is a decent seed bed to drill in the rye.

Hi Dave, To keep costs down when I lime I get some people wanting lime lined up, buy a whole truckload, and sell about a third of it spread. That way I reduce my outlay and some people get lime on the ground for about the same as they would pay for bagged lime which they would have to then spread themselves. so everybody makes out.

5.2 is very acid. Your not going to get good crops on it unless you grow blueberries. If I remember right ph of 5 is ten times as acid as 6. Lime will make a huge difference and I think it may need about 6 ton to the acre not 2 or 3.
Spread it and disc or drag it in. It will take some months to make a difference so the sooner the better.
Just for educational purposes you might leave a strip unlimed to see what kind of a differece it makes.

Certain nutrieints are not available to plants when the pH gets too low(acidic soil). It doesn't make any difference whether you use fertilizers or not, those elements are bound to the soil an unavailable to the plant.

If you are concerned about spending money on lime and then losing the land, the finer the lime the quicker it is used up. So if regular lime is good for 5 years then a fine lime may be good for 3 years, and you would use only 60% as much. Your extension office should have the real numbers, don't trust my example.

Dave I think you will be going backwards with just manure. Someone please correct me if I am wrong. I think the FFA instructor told us The more manure put on, the more acidic your soil will become. I will admit it has been 40 years since I was in that class. I know my dad was a strong believer in using both. .

That is my recollection as well - manure is a far better fertilizer than commercial stuff (organic matter, trace minerals, slow release, etc); but it does tend to lower the ph some. That would make the acid problem a bit worse.....

--->Paul

Discing it in while preparing the seed bed is good enough to incorporate the lime.

The lime will work itself into the soil without tillage.

Gary

Organic matter and manure is not a replacement for lime and will not neutralize acidity. Never put fertilizer on over lime. When your pH is low your soil nutrients are tied up so bringing back up will free up nutrients, also when pH is low microbial activity decreases, and fungal activity increases. Lime first, manure if you can get it, and then commercial fertilizer last.

Everyone else has given good advice.

Manure will increase the acidityand lime at your pH level is highly reccomended. Apply 3 tons as soon as you can, wait at least two years and test again before applying an additional 2 to 3 tons.

Financially you need to examine your lease and be sure that there is a lime clause in it. Most standard leases have one that will protect your financial intrest incase the landlord choses to change tenants. The agreement would spell out the term length of value for the lime, usually 4 years, and how that expense is to be divided. In some leases the landlord is totally responsible for the lime and it"s application value is used to reduce the rent, i.e. the lime value is $48 per acre or $12 per year and the rent is reduced by $12 a year. OTOH if you are to pay for the lime and your tenancy would last for 2 years the landlord would owe you $24 per acre for the remaining lime value.

That same formula applies to the application of commercial fertilizer.

The important part as far as the landlord is concerned is that you are being a good steward of his property and any fertility improvemnets you make are in his best intrest. Communication is the key on this and can make the difference between a long term relationship and one that goes sour quick.