RE: JohnT, help, polarizing generators debate WHY?

https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=1638189&start=0

Some potential WHYs:
Actually, B type regs survive A-type polarizations just fine. It is A-type regs that smoke fast when you polarize

them as B. B's are damaged by applying battery voltage to Field, too...UNLESS one removes the VR Field to gen Field connection before applying Battery to generator. Must apply to gen Field only & NOT VR Field.

This caused me to look to determine "why".
Looking at circuits, caused me to ask, "why didn't 'everybody', from day one just use the A-type polarization

technique on BOTH A & B types"? It doesn't appear that it would stress anything in the B-type regulator any more

than normal operation and would in fact polarize the field? Yes, current would flow in Field AND Armature in both the "A" and the "B" types.

It would have also meant that user need not know whether he has A or B system, and not need to try to determine

which he has. Nor would there be any chance of damage by choosing the wrong polarization method, since there would

be no choice to be made...same method for all.

As I mentioned before, perhaps the designers thought folks would just follow old habits and jumper the two left

most VR terminals and sought to try to "help" them avoid that?? Most can't determine which ckt type they have,

either.

Another: Could this be a very early "vast right (or Left) wing conspiracy" to help users burn up more VRs and thus

sell more regulators by baiting users into mistaking which of two techniques to use?

I was the guy in class that aggravated the professor by always asking "WHY?".

Great questions JMOR but absent detail internal wiring diagrams of particular
Voltage Regulators and some serious study (Im too old for that lol) I just cant
provide the answers you're looking for BUT IM AN ASK WHY PERSON MYSELF LOL.. .

1) Actually, B type regs survive A-type polarizations just fine... ..

You have claimed that before with explanations and certain VR wiring diagrams
AND I HAVE NO REASON TO DOUBT YOU ..If it works for you GO FOR IT no way Im arguing
you do otherwise and I take you at your word which I certainly respect.. ...



2) It is A-type regs that smoke fast when you polarize. ..


May be ?? but FWIW Ive never smoked an A type when I jumped from BAT over to
ARM ??.. .


3) B's are damaged by applying battery voltage to Field, too...UNLESS one removes
the VR Field to gen Field connection before applying Battery to generator. Must
apply to gen Field only & NOT VR Field.


I AGREE AND THATS HOW THE MANUALS SAY TO DO IT

4) Looking at circuits, caused me to ask, why didn't 'everybody', from day one
just use the A-type polarization.. ..


You would have to ask Delco and the Deere and other manual publishers that
sorry I just dont have enough detailed information to answer your question

BOTTOM LINE DELCO DEERE AND OTHER MANUFACTURERS THEIR RECOMMENDATIOSN TO POLARIZE

According to the Delco-Remy service bulletin dated 7-3-61, there are two different
circuit types of generators:

To polarize the generator with:

Type A circuit - Momentarily connect a jumper lead between the regulator BATTERY and
ARMATURE terminals after all leads have been connected, but before the engine is
started...


Type B circuit - Disconnect the lead from the regulator FIELD terminal, and
momentarily touch the lead to the regulator BATTERY terminal. This should be done
after all other leads have been connected and before the engine is started.

Soooooooo I recommend what the manuals and Delco have to say,,,,,,I CAN NOT ANSWER
YOUR QUESTIONS,,,,,As far as Im concerned its YOUR tractor,,,,,,,,YOUR potential
risk to do otherwise,,,,, Its YOUR choice... ..


As always its fun sparky chatting with you, I enjoy and appreciate your deep
technical insights, I have learned from you and wish I had the answers grrrr my bad

John T

My thinking, B circuit. When not charging (stopped) the cutout is open. This factor keeps electricity in the battery and not farther than the cutout contacts. The pathway to ground in the regulator side is through windings that are subjected to generator residual magnetic field output, which causes the unloaded armature to generate enough voltage to pull in the cutout contacts. This voltage is above 13 volts. The application of flash voltage to the F terminal is less than that requirement and the cutout does not pull closed. the pull in winding is not ever subjected to high current because it has many turns to capture the low output but higher open circuit voltage of the residual gen output during excitation phase. Jim

(quoted from post at 12:28:56 09/11/23) My thinking, B circuit. When not charging (stopped) the cutout is open. This factor keeps electricity in the battery and not farther than the cutout contacts. The pathway to ground in the regulator side is through windings that are subjected to generator residual magnetic field output, which causes the unloaded armature to generate enough voltage to pull in the cutout contacts. This voltage is above 13 volts. The application of flash voltage to the F terminal is less than that requirement and the cutout does not pull closed. the pull in winding is not ever subjected to high current because it has many turns to capture the low output but higher open circuit voltage of the residual gen output during excitation phase. Jim

Click to expand...

im, I am not saying that the cut out is pulled closed during polarization. I am saying that if user fails to remove field connecting wire between generator and regulator and consequently connects battery to Field, that a very high current (dashed line in drawing) will flow thru the Normally Closed Voltage Regulator contacts, which will damage contacts designed for ~4 amperes or less. My 60A is a conservative number based on armature resistance of 0.1 Ohm, but it is most certainly less, thus a current more like 100+ amperes!

(quoted from post at 08:38:10 09/11/23) https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=1638189&start=0

Another: Could this be a very early "vast right (or Left) wing conspiracy" to help users burn up more VRs and thus

sell more regulators by baiting users into mistaking which of two techniques to use?

I was the guy in class that aggravated the professor by always asking "WHY?".

Click to expand...

here are two kinds of vast conspiracies. One is the type where the man in the tin foil hat has gone off the deep end. The other is the perpetrators saying that in spite of all the evidence, there is nothing to see here. It can be hard to tell the difference.

(quoted from post at 13:13:42 09/11/23)

(quoted from post at 08:38:10 09/11/23) https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=1638189&start=0

Another: Could this be a very early "vast right (or Left) wing conspiracy" to help users burn up more VRs and thus

sell more regulators by baiting users into mistaking which of two techniques to use?

I was the guy in class that aggravated the professor by always asking "WHY?".

Click to expand...

here are two kinds of vast conspiracies. One is the type where the man in the tin foil hat has gone off the deep end. The other is the perpetrators saying that in spite of all the evidence, there is nothing to see here. It can be hard to tell the difference.

Click to expand...

es, and some seem to be having a hard time!

jmor; Wouldn't the shunt windings in the regulator open those contacts?

(quoted from post at 14:35:56 09/11/23) jmor; Wouldn't the shunt windings in the regulator open those contacts?

Click to expand...

he current will be flowing in opposite direction vs normal operation, but would still open. However, they are going to be opening at a still very high current, IF they are not welded together first.

JMOR,

I'm curious as to your technical education - what and where from? You are one of several who post here whom I have learned from concerning ignition and charging details since my specialization was in radio frequency stuff, broadcast transmitters and 2-way mobile radio during my working career. My ignition and charging details have been learned from YT posters and their referenced documents that I have followed in my 20 years of retirement. I have a degree from North Dakota State University in EE. Not saying I was a top student, but I did graduate. My details of the learning from all you fine gents here on YT is most appreciated.

(quoted from post at 14:53:54 09/11/23) JMOR,

I'm curious as to your technical education - what and where from? You are one of several who post here whom I have learned from concerning ignition and charging details since my specialization was in radio frequency stuff, broadcast transmitters and 2-way mobile radio during my working career. My ignition and charging details have been learned from YT posters and their referenced documents that I have followed in my 20 years of retirement. I have a degree from North Dakota State University in EE. Not saying I was a top student, but I did graduate. My details of the learning from all you fine gents here on YT is most appreciated.

Click to expand...

SEE, Southern Methodist University, one year USAF Radar school, 29 years at Texas Instruments, Inc. and final two years before retirement with Raytheon Technologies.

This post was edited by JMOR on 09/11/2023 at 12:16 pm.

Obviously, this is intentionally posted not to sort out the generator polarization issue, but to make the rest of us feel stupid. OK, I feel
stupid, now let's get on with our lives OK .... LOL !!!!

I did some additional research in a Chilton manual, and a Motors manual (that I should have done before just thinking about it) You are correct. Just flashing the F terminal is not good. Removing it from the reg and flashing it to the bat terminal is correct. With apologies, Jim

(quoted from post at 21:14:33 09/11/23) I did some additional research in a Chilton manual, and a Motors manual (that I should have done before just thinking about it) You are correct. Just flashing the F terminal is not good. Removing it from the reg and flashing it to the bat terminal is correct. With apologies, Jim

Click to expand...

o apology necessary, Jim. We all can learn and none of us knows everything. And for the rabble rouser, just because you , or me, does not know everything in the world, is no reason to feel stupid. If that were the case, I myself would be in a constant state of depression. But I am always open to learning.

Agree!! Those who are satisfied with what they know are not flexing their brain. Once it stops being flexed it starts to have two things happen: They are stuck in that day forever, and their bulb begins to dim. Jim

Everyone gets excited about their favorite
flavor of regulator polarization, but we
leave out the first step. Start the
thing, raise the rpm, and see if it even
needs polarized! 9 times out of 10, they
charge the correct direction just fine.
That's the way I've always done it, only
my '49 Pontiac routinely needed polarized
after sitting with no battery.

(quoted from post at 07:10:58 09/12/23) Everyone gets excited about their favorite
flavor of regulator polarization, but we
leave out the first step. Start the
thing, raise the rpm, and see if it even
needs polarized! 9 times out of 10, they
charge the correct direction just fine.
That's the way I've always done it, only
my '49 Pontiac routinely needed polarized
after sitting with no battery.

Click to expand...

ou are dead on!