Keeping family farm in the family

My uncle is nearing end of life and still owns the house and part of the farm my grandparents bought in 1946 after he got back from WWII. The barn burned down years ago and most of the other buildings are in disrepair or not very useful. House hasn't been remodeled or updated inside since the 60s probably but it's got newish siding, windows, and roof. Water heater, and boiler for hot water heat are relatively new and my uncle added air conditioning a number of years back. The structure of the house is good but need some work inside.

Uncle was never married, has no kids and my mom is the only surviving sibling and she lives about 7 hours away as well. My brother lives about an hour away. It's located north of Minneapolis about an hour with easy access to I35 just to give a reference to location. It's close to St Croix River access and several good fishing lakes but not ON a lake. Less than a mile to snowmobile trails as well.

I have lots of memories of staying here as a kid. My dad farmed the tillable after my grandpa passed and I spent many weeks in the summers with my grandma and uncle so I have some sentimental attachment to the place.

My thought is to use some equity in the property to remodel the house and make it look nice but still remain simple in old Norwegian family farmhouse style. Add a patio in the middle of the circle driveway with a fire pit and place to entertain. The house could easily sleep 8 with 4 bedrooms. Currently has 1 bath but part of the remodel would be to turn a storage room on first floor into a second full bathroom. Thinking it would be a nice airbnb or short term rental unit and give my siblings and I a vacation place that is "up north" and especially as our kids get older and eventually move out and start their own families they would have a vacation house at a multigenerational family farmhouse.

Would the best mechanism for this be to put the property into a trust? My mom is named in his will. I haven't really talked to my mom about it, she's stressing out enough about losing her only surviving sibling and has her own health issues as well. Figured I ask the brain trust here what the best way is to keep this property in the family.

Get a move on setting up a trust. The problem may be that the uncle will not take to that idea. This should have been dealt
with years ago. All too often families wait around until a nursing home is a reality. Was not all that long ago that a nursing
without extensive care was 140-150 K per year but I imagine the rates have moved up along with everything else as of late. There
are plenty of families out there who have a sad tale to tell in terms of screwing around or being stubborn until it is too late.
Also, while noble buying somebody out is not a reality in most cases due to the ridiculous cost of of farm land. Also, the
calculator does not lie. If somebody of ordinary means supposedly bought out his grandpa for millions while he himself did not
have two nickels to rub together then it is a pile of BS. Don't let outsiders who may be jealous of your opportunity throw tons of
BS in to derail your efforts. Honestly, don't expect a lot of support for your idea here as these posts have been made here
before. Do what you can do and if at the end of the day you don't succeed at least that you know you tried.

I'll second that a trust should have been done long ago... 'Course that doesn't matter now.

I'm in the same situation essentially. I just managed to get it in a trust a little over a year ago, and I'm getting both parents in a care facility in the next week, or two. (prior to forcing the trust issue, the genius hadn't bothered to update the wills since 1969, which is before my sister, and I were born... Just dumb)

Care in NJ, is well over $10k per month, per person. They're going to a place out in PA, so the numbers drop by half, but it's still a whole lot of money. Now I get to try to ride out 4 more years before they would qualify for Medicaid, in the hope that I can save the farm. It should be ok with their other assets getting liquidated, but that didn't need to happen if they had just been more realistic. (the Alzheimer's diagnosis was 4 years ago, and the other's cancer was 3 years ago)

Ignoring the reality of aging, and or illness doesn't help anyone. Nobody wants to grow old, or need medical care, but dealing with it honestly, and early would make most people's lives much simpler in the end...

Let me add (as I edit) that I'm obviously no expert, going through this just now... What I will suggest is finding an estate planner to help you. You may get some ideas here, or elsewhere online, but there are fine differences in the trust process between states. There are lots of different kinds of trusts as well, and you may even find that a trust isn't the ideal in your situation. The important thing is to get some help from someone that does this for a living, and can look at it objectively. It sounds like you have thought it through somewhat, but you need to make sure that you're all on the same page so it gets done right. It is going to come down to your uncle in the end though. In my case, I did the best I could to plan it out, and then at the last moment, my father spoke to the lawyer to make changes without involving me. His changes are going to make some real challenges for me in terms of taking care of them. It's just my sister and I so it'll work as long as she's on board, but there's too much room for things to go south as they frequently do with families, money, and property...

This post was edited by Tslinger on 11/02/2021 at 09:10 am.

Uncle lived in the house on his own up until about sept 1. He fell and was admitted to hospital to get rehydrated and then into a rehab facility when they discovered metastatic cancer basically everywhere. End of life care should not eat through savings and into any property value.

Well, to be honest, legally it is
still your uncles. He could even take
your moms name off the will, and do as
he pleases so to speak in those
regards. If your mom doesn't need the
future money that this could possibly
generate for her in the future, and
she doesn't have an interest in the
burden of owning the property, perhaps
your uncle could set things up
differently in his will. This would
have to be talked about with both of
them, preferably together at the same
time and place. Because 1. it is his,
and 2. your mom is currently his next
of kin and legal error.
Bad part is, the government can come
after estate money/property if medical
bills and care facility bills are
racked up before his death. Things can
be set-up to prevent this from
happening, but those are time
sensitive and should be done years in
advance. That's not something that can
be done the day before somebody goes
to the care home.
Talk to your uncle and mom. Preferably
together at same time, and if they
want to persue something different,
then you'll need to get a local lawyer
involved to further advise you. Your
other siblings should probly come into
play for thiet thoughts at that time
as well. If not, then that'll just be
future problems in itself.

I owned the family farm for almost 40 yrs, while I lived and and worked hundreds of miles away. I was nostalgic about the place, but all the
planned visits dwindled over the years. Finally the burden of remote share cropping, remote maintenance, renter grief, and long distance
headaches overcame my nostalgia.... and I sold the place. I am glad to be out from under the burden.

Your uncle could have a big surprise waiting for you all in a will and then if no will your mom will have the authority over the property.Think you are getting ahead of yourself on making plans for the property. I have a couple younger relatives that think they will inherit what I own when I die,they are going to be in for a big surprise.

I don't think that anybody here is suggesting that the nephew steal the place from the uncle. It is far past time to have a frank discussion as to what the future holds. In this day and age the uncle holds all the cards and can't be forced to do something against his will assuming he is anywhere near to being alert and coherent. A trust is not the only means of transfer but once investigated is the vehicle to satisfy the objectives of everybody involved. The uncle can establish terms that addresses concerns such as if the place is sold eventually via a trust. That his life long enemy does not get it. That it can not be sold for a housing development.

I agree that its way late in the game to be setting something up in regards to protecting estate from medical expenses. That is not something that can be dealt with in the bottom half of the 9th inning. But the situation aspect of it, STILL needs to be understood.
Having a sit down with uncle, mom, and lawyer and changing the will is in no way stealing anything. Not sure how you got that part out of it. The uncle is perfectly legal to leave his place to anyone he chooses, in his will. Maybe perhaps in this case, that would be the thing to do. But my not so much spelled out point was, it would make no sense to will the property to the nephew if the mom and sibling were not in agreance to this and would contest the will later.

If he leaves it 100percent to your mom, then she can leave it to the 3 of you in a trust. But be aware that a trust is not a panacea. They
are complex and can be difficult to administer, especially caring for real estate.

Find a lawyer, hopefully a local one, who has estate planning experience. Do it ASAP.

According to the lawyers I listen to on the radio every Sunday morning, something can still be done even on the day you go into a nursing home, but you need to consult with a lawyer, preferably one that specializes in elder law. You won't be able to protect everything but you can stop them from taking everything.

I have a similar situation. Both my parents passed away this year, Dad in February and Mom in September. The estate after Dad died was a non-issue, as most everything had both their names on it. Mom was just too broken hearted to deal with it and in a couple of months she was diagnosed with leukemia. From there there was no point in even broaching the subject.

So, we're doing the whole probate thing now.

If you want to own it you need to buy it.
Ask uncle if he wants to sell it to you.
Expect to pay appraised value.

In general if you want to protect everything then a trust or some other form of transfer needs to happen at least 5 years ahead
of needing public assistance such as going into a nursing home at least here in NY. And with NY needing all kinds of revenue these
days the talk is that might change to 6 or 7 years. There should be communication happening as to expectations and needs ahead of
typical retirement age which is usually being age 65 to 70. Most of the time waiting until the person in question is 80 or 90
years old does not work out well. And if the place winds up being sold don't count on the new owners making it a living memorial
to the previous owner. If a younger person is working with an older owner then the time is ASAP to find out the intentions of the
owner. If an older owner is non-committal as to a succession plan then it might be wise for the younger person to move on to
secure their own future. Promises are the easiest things to break so at some point things need to be put in writing to protect all
involved.

Hmm. If your mom is the sole heir in his will, then it WILL remain in the family. Assuming, of course, your uncle doesn't require long term care that eats up his equity in the farm. There's really no point in putting his farm in a trust; your mom will inherit the property when your uncle passes. If your mom inherits the property, it gets a new cost basis, which will be really important if and when it's sold, so don't try do anything to circumvent probate, like getting your uncle to gift the property to you before he dies.

If your uncle has had to go on Medicaid (highly probable), the state will have a lien on his property. It will be up to your mom to decide whether to pay off the lien or auction the property. Again, don't try to outsmart the state, say by having your mom sell you the property at a below-market price. Those folks have seen every scheme there is, and they won't be fooled by yours.

DLM Wow lots of good questions. FWIW in my professional legal opinion as a practicing estate, estate planning and elder
law attorney with so much at stake, THIS IS NOT THE PLACE TO SEEK LEGAL ADVICE including from myself included not having
gathered all the relevant facts and evidence nor consulted with your uncle for HIS wishes, nor researched your states laws.
That being said I will briefly address a few of your statements.


1) My uncle is nearing end of life and still owns the house and part of the farm my grandparents bought in 1946

Looks like HE still owns it, and if so, and its up to him what to do NOT anyone else. It is HE who needs legal advice

2) End of life care should not eat through savings and into any property value.

How does you or anyone know that for a fact ?????????? but if it does its a bit late now to prevent it, there are legal
estate planning procedures to help preserve assets most of which need to be completed FIVE YEARS AGO. They are a bit
complicated and cant NOT be covered here WELL DUH LOL

3) My mom is named in his will.

Named as what to receive what ??? That could have already been changed or charged tomorrow. How do you know if the
will is even valid ???

4) Would the best mechanism for this be to put the property into a trust?

ANSWER MAYBE YES MAYBE NO It depends on several factors and your uncles wishes THIS CAN NOT BE ANSWERED HERE BY AN
ATTORNEY OR STRANGERS/ There are a ton of facts and circumstances and legal research needed before that question can be best
professionally answered

BOTTOM LINE your Uncle THE PROPERTY OWNER needs to seek competent professional legal advice with this much at stake.

I have planned several estates and NO TWO WERE ALIKE. Whats best for Billy Bob on here may be the exact opposite for Bubba.
Does your Uncle want a plan best for HIM and HIS wishes orrrrrrr what was best for some stranger on here??? There are times
when a Trust is good and others where it is not PERIOD. I can avoid probate and protect assets for clients with or without a
trust IT ALL DEPENDS ON A LOT OF CIRCUMSTANCES.

DLW I like the idea of keeping a farm in the family and if your uncle wants that ?????????????? there are legal ways to
accomplish all or part of such BUT THAT TAKES A LOT OF PLANNING AND COMPLEX LEGAL MANEUVERS that can in no way be addressed
here

You have good ideas and I wish you and your uncle the best but at least consider having him seek professional legal advice
and DO NOT take action based solely on what some stranger (not privvy to all the necessary facts and uncles wishes) says on
here ME INCLUDED !!!!!!!!!!

Best wishes and God Bless, now do as you and your uncle please that's what matters NOT me or anyone here

John T BSEE,JD Attorney at Law

Mom can have things happen to derail things. Uncle for that matter could derail things even if unintentional. Most people are very stubborn about turning in their driver's licenses when their abilities are on a sharp decline. An accident happens involving serious injury of the other party or death then you might as well kiss it all good bye. It's nice that a few generations ago that a farmer could come up by the boot straps but that seldom if ever happens today. Saying that somebody needs to do a full buy out is a denial of the times we live in today.

There is another way to look at it. First of all as of today it is 100% your uncles and he can do as he pleases with it. Evidently in his earlier years he didn't care if the place stays in the family or not.
Still doesn't care today. He doesn't owe your Mother or you anything. Keep your nose out of it. Let the chips fall where they may. Friend once told me if I spend my last dime the day I die then that is just
right. When his estate is finally settled and the place comes up for sale, get in there and buy it. But don't involve your Mother or brother in that purchase. That usually never end well. If you don't have
the means to by it then so be it. Let the next guy buy it. You got along this far without it, you will get along in the future without it.
Don't mean for this to sound harsh but I've seen enough of these things to know that is the reality of things. However it ends up, don't let it consume you. Life goes on.

I think that most people coming on here take things with a grain of salt. That a sit down with a lawyer needs to be about the first thing to happen in order to devise a strategy. That the only things that matter are the laws in the OP's state. Still we can throw out our 2 cents to either be praised for or derided for.

Very good point, its HIS STATE AND ITS LAWS that matter. I agree everyone is entitled to his or her opinion, wouldn't it be boring if all were the same lol If the poster were to simply purchase the property now that's one good way to decide its future use all easy n simple .......

Best wishes and God Bless

Nice chatting with you

John T Country Lawyer

I was going to let this go but can't. In the nicest way possible I would suggest we do not know who owes what to whom. It would not be the first time somebody owed someone else to keep the farm afloat. I know of a rather nasty current lawsuit involving owed money concerning a farm operation and it was not the first. A guy told me many years ago he took his brothers to court because they mismanaged the farm and the judge ordered that the guy I knew be paid back for his personal money put in plus his share of the farm business. The OP for all we know could be looking after his interests.

I'm sure the op knows if he doesn't reveal that we can't possibly give him helpful opinions or suggestions. That changes everything.

Listen to John T's advice.That's all I have to say!

Bringing people together to discuss these issues is important and may be necessary. I would say, don't think
that one meeting can do justice to the issue. Best to have a get together so people can become aware of your
intentions and let them have time to maul over the possibilities and their own thinking. You will know who's
thoughts are relevant. I say have 8 or 10 meetings over a few years, if possible to give people time to
voice their perspectives in a manner that won't burn a bridge. I say relevant voices speak and can offer the
opinions of their spouses if they deem them to be relevant.

Good luck with whatever happens. One guy here knows more than the rest of us together and that's John, but even he distances himself from his answers to some extent. I guess it 'depends' as they say. The scary part of your post for me is this ....

'give my siblings and I a vacation place that is up north and especially as our kids get older and eventually move out and start their own families they would have a vacation house at a multigenerational family farmhouse.'

That my friend is scary. No need too explain why, I'm sure there are several here that have experienced such a pleasurable family experience that went south over the years. Once again, best of luck.

The uncle in question came home from the war in 1946 so he most likely is in his mid 90's. The OP does not have a few years. The OP's best bet is if the will of the uncle holds up and the place goes to his sister the OP's mom unless she is right there age-wise as well. Don't know how things came to be there as of today but just another example of don't put things off like a succession plan. Even if the uncle wants to be lord of the manner until he falls over dead it is still wise to protect the property so it is not lost in a personal injury suit for example.

That should read manor and not manner. Darn auto-correct.

I once drafted an appeal before the US Court of Appeals having to do with THE RULE AGAINST PERPETUITIES. In a nutshell the
law DOES NOT favor ruling from the grave or methods by which real estate can be controlled (like keeping it in the family
as OP desired) for years and years after the death of like the Uncle or Mother in this thread.....

Per Wikipedia The rule against perpetuities is a legal rule in the Anglo-American common law that prevents people from
using legal instruments (usually a deed or a will) to exert control over the ownership of private property for a time long
beyond the lives of people living at the time the instrument was written. Specifically, the rule forbids a person from
creating future interests (traditionally contingent remainders and executory interests) in property that would vest beyond
21 years after the lifetimes of those living at the time of creation of the interest, often expressed as a life in being
plus twenty-one years. In essence, the rule prevents a person from putting qualifications and criteria in a deed or a will
that would continue to affect the ownership of property long after he or she has died, a concept often referred to as
control by the dead hand or mortmain.

Its a great thought to keep property in the family and indeed it is possible when handed down generation to generation BUT
IT CAN BE DIFFICULT OTHERWISE and requires quite a bit of complex legal wrangling (yet still subject to challenge)

Regardless, the question posed by the OP can not be answered here by lay or even professionals absent thorough research but
hey its fun to read differing opinions to see what people think of such topics. As Ive often noted any Electrical or Legal
question draws out more opinions and responses then any other and as an electrical engineer and attorney I enjoy them and
love to participate.

Best wishes yall God Bless and take care now

John T BSEE,JD Attorney at Law

JT,
Uncle Sam,It's my money and I want it now!
Isn't Keeping land in the family without paying taxes may be very difficult?
Before a man who owned a large, 2000 acre 100 year old family farm passed, he turned
his property into an LLC.
I'm no expert. I'm guessing the LLC may have tax advantages.

As for me, I have my property in a living trust. Hopefully it will pass to my 2 kids..
They can do what they want. Sell it or keep it. I really don't care. I'll be dead.

In regards to, "seek competent professional legal advice," how do you ever know?

You only get one chance at it. It's not like you can call a "do over," shove everything back in a pile, and start from scratch when the incompetent lunkhead of a lawyer botches the estate the first time through.

Ask any lawyer if they're competent. Will they say no?

Ask people who they use. They shrug their shoulders. Dunno. Don't have any suggestions.

Tell them you're going with lawyer X, they will say, "Oh don't go with him. He's a shyster." "Then who do I go with?" Shrugged shoulders. Dunno. Don't have any suggestions.

Really all you can do is pick at random and hope for the best and hope you don't get shafted.

The truth. Hard to tell until it is too late. 10 years later when you find the goof-up, or what he overlooked, or shear incompetence....it is
too late.

(quoted from post at 09:38:48 11/03/21) In regards to, "seek competent professional legal advice," how do you ever know?

You only get one chance at it. It's not like you can call a "do over," shove everything back in a pile, and start from scratch when the incompetent lunkhead of a lawyer botches the estate the first time through.

Ask any lawyer if they're competent. Will they say no?

Ask people who they use. They shrug their shoulders. Dunno. Don't have any suggestions.

Tell them you're going with lawyer X, they will say, "Oh don't go with him. He's a shyster." "Then who do I go with?" Shrugged shoulders. Dunno. Don't have any suggestions.

Really all you can do is pick at random and hope for the best and hope you don't get shafted.

Click to expand...

I expect people can do better than that...

This was my process...

I live in NJ where we have something like 1 lawyer for every 10 people... So I had some choices... I understand, not everyone has access to that kind of selection, but you will have some to choose from. You may well have to look outside your immediate area. We never had to step foot in their office, we did everything on the phone, through email, certified mail, and eventually we did have to have a Zoom video meeting to do the signing, and notarizing.

Figure out what is important to you. When I say you, I mean the family, and the person who actually owns everything, assuming they want to involve the family. Whatever the case, the person with the stuff, had damn well better talk to whoever the trustee, and backup are, or if its just a will, then the executor, since they're going to have to administer it. (I get to do this more than once, since I have to do my father, my mother, and then I'm the executor for my aunt and uncle as well, who thankfully did their planning a couple years ago, and are still healthy)

If you can get a recommendation, fine, but look around anyway, and see what the online reviews say. Take those with a grain of salt, but you can still get a feel for things.
I had 2 states to deal with, so I could narrow it by making sure they could handle both states.

After that, around here at least, the initial consultation is free. I did 4. They got back to me with a broad stroke plan. I was able to look up what they were proposing, and see if it made sense, and also if it actually followed our goals.

2 out of 4 didn't come close to achieving what we wanted with their plan. It was like they didn't even bother to listen at all. Obviously they were out.

Another came back with a plan that sounded viable, but then mentioned that the guy in the group with the PA experience had moved on, so they were going to bring in someone else from another firm, and add his cost... No thanks, I doubt that guy had left in the 24 hours involved...

Fortunately, the 4th checked all the boxes. I hit them with a pile of additional questions, which they had no issues answering, before having me commit (it took me 4 more weeks to commit). The process after that was fine. (not their fault my father made some 11th hour changes that will make some things difficult. They did also let me know those changes had been put in rather than letting them be a surprise, buried in 200 pages of paperwork)

If I hadn't been comfortable with any of the 4, then I'd hit the next 4 on the initial list. To simply give up before you start is doing a real disservice to everyone involved. If you're not comfortable doing that kind of research, and you don't want to involve your family, who might be, then find what resources are available though your town, county or state, to help you understand your options.

I learned a lot about estate stuff when my grandparents were sick and passed on. I come from a small family and there was no question or dispute about anything but I would suggest finding the most knowledgeable attorney you can locate. I am in NC, and laws vary a lot from state to state. A trust is a good option in a lot of situations, but good legal advice is priceless. The right attorney can advise you well. My mother is an only child and I only have one brother and no first cousins on either side so things were easy but we had to pay for the right legal advice. It was money well spent.

I learned a lot about estate stuff when my grandparents were sick and passed on. I come from a small family and there was no question or dispute about anything but I would suggest finding the most knowledgeable attorney you can locate. I am in NC, and laws vary a lot from state to state. A trust is a good option in a lot of situations, but good legal advice is priceless. The right attorney can advise you well. My mother is an only child and I only have one brother and no first cousins on either side so things were easy but we had to pay for the right legal advice. It was money well spent.