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Right to repair.

Geo-TH,In

Geo-TH,In

Well-known Member
The U.S. Department of Agriculture announced that it will engage in a series of rule-makings decisions, one gives farmers the right to repair their own equipment how they like,

So if you have the right to repair, will the dealer sell you the parts?
 
If right to repair is done right, parts can be available from other sources. You might be able to fit a red part on a green tractor for instance.
 
Not exactly. The administration will probably direct the Federal Trade Commission to address the issue of Right to Repair in the next few days. Has nothing to do with USDA. Packer monopoly is a separate issue that is being looked in to by the executive branch since congress has no motivation to do anything but talk it to death.
 
(quoted from post at 05:35:04 07/07/21) The U.S. Department of Agriculture announced that it will engage in a series of rule-makings decisions, one gives farmers the right to repair their own equipment how they like,

So if you have the right to repair, will the dealer sell you the parts?
Click to expand...

AFAIK, parts availability isn't the issue, the issue is proprietary SOFTWARE and the companies' refusal to release the source code to third parties that want to tweak and modify it.

AFAIK , John Deere (as an example) will sell you pretty much any part you have the $$$$ to buy as things stand now.

Where a problem comes in is when a computer or other module they will gladly SELL you needs to be programmed to actually work with a specific tractor or other machine.
 
A fuel tank cap for a 4010 or 4020 was a start. I needed one and went to the local JD dealer and while the guy was working up the paper work I opened the box and saw a RED cap. I said that you got me the wrong cap or something of the sort. He said JD painted it red as it's where the radiator cap would normally be (fuel tank up in front of the radiator) and it helps keep people from dieseling up their radiator rather than filling their fuel tank.

I went home and whipped out my I and T manual on the tractor and sure-nuff there sat a red cap right on the front cover in living technicolor.
 
I agree. Automobile companies have
already done that and are adding more
parts every year that they have to
reprogram the computer for the new part
to work. Buy a junkyard part and you
still have to pay the dealership $100 to
reprogram the computer.

I don't think there is an easy solution
but I do think with the reliance on
computers to control everything a
diagnostic mode should be mandatory. I
don't see that happening though.
 
Code is a primary issue. Incentive to build workalike modules will certainly grow. The CPU modifications can make a tractor, or combine dangerous as well as self destructive. Think of the tendency for owners to modify tractors. From boost pressure to turning up pumps, very few components have been left alone. The manufacturers have three incentives for wanting protection. One is to protect the investment they have in the source code, another is the safety of the operator, and the third is the expected work life and value of the product. The basic solution (to me) is to provide a self diagnostic system embedded in each machine that monitors and detects error states and clearly relates that data into operator usable information. A modest 6X10 ruggedized display would show not only the fault, but impending faults and heated bearings/noises etc. Replacing a bearing, when it begins to heat is far better than smelling your combine start on fire. A warning on the display and clear announcement of the issue, would save radical amounts of time and investment and make the reliability/reputation of that manufacturer dramatically better. Setting cryptic codes is disgusting. Jim
 

Do the computer laden tractors at least have something like an OBDII port??

As far as the "reprograming" the computer to recognize and shake hands with a new part, the dealer likely only needs to enter a "key code" for the new component.
 
(quoted from post at 07:32:38 07/07/21)
Do the computer laden tractors at least have something like an OBDII port??

As far as the "reprograming" the computer to recognize and shake hands with a new part, the dealer likely only needs to enter a "key code" for the new component.
Click to expand...

Yes, they have a "port".

Yes, the programming by the dealer is quick and easy ASSUMING everything goes as it's supposed to.

The problem is the $$$$$ you have to pay the dealer each and every time some little thing happens.

With a car, it can often be driven a reasonable distance in "limp mode" to a dealer, with a tractor or other farm machine, if it throws a code 50 or 80 miles from a dealer you aren't likely to DRIVE it to a dealer so it's $$$$ for service call and mileage and often another trip, if parts are needed that aren't on the service truck, or $$$$ for hauling it to the dealer.
 
What amuses me is that the same people who think Deere and Company should give us access to their proprietary information, don't think the Chinese have any right do demand proprietary information from American companies before they're allowed to build a factory over there. They don't have to build factories in China, but apparently whatever they think they'll gain in profits is worth more than that information is worth to them, because they'll give it up to build those factories. It's called free enterprise.
 
How will that apply to leased equipment where the manufacture retains ownership of the machine and the farmer only rents it for a fixed length of time?
 
Forty years ago it was already common industry practice to record any and all software changes in a machine's logbook so that people on other shifts could debug your fixes if any problems happen to occur when you are not in the plant. I think that was a carry over from the earlier days of hardwired relay controls. Hopefully most farmers will have the forethought to do the same to avoid having to pay a dealer many $100+/Hrs just to figure out what changes the farmer had made before any repairs can be started.
 
When GM released the Volt electric car, they only leased the cars, they did not sell any. At the end of the leases GM did not re-lease or resell them.
 
Are you going to spend 20 grand to buy the computer and the all the stuff you need to fix it and the new service manuals are about 1500.00$ each
 
My brother has a moonlighting John Deere school instructor do all of his computer-related repairs. Much, much cheaper than mother Deere.
 
Right to repair is one thing.

Right to modify and customize is a whole different thing!

Buying a half million dollar machine is something that should come with some ownership rights. After all, that is a lot of money to shell out only to be told that is isn't really yours.

As with cars, third party diagnostic tools will eventually come along. There are already third party tools available for programming cars to recognize replacement transponder keys.
 
Bingo... I know a couple of young enterprising techs that would probably spend the $$ on the tools. It would certainly put some new players into the service Monopoly Deere now has. As one who owns one of these tractors and a couple of the skid steers, I welcome the idea.
 
Its becoming more common where service and maintenance are included in equipment leases. Operator pays $X per hour, repairs are not his problem.
 
It will be years before this winds its way through the courts. Manufacturers won't just roll over because a federal agency tells them to; JD and others have taken a hard stance on this.

Hopefully in the end there will be a reasonable compromise. Manufacturers should publish ALL their diagnostic codes, not just the ones they feel like publishing. And they should allow owners to clear most errors. But they shouldn't be asked to publish their source code or otherwise make it easy for owners to modify firmware.
 
Here's a question, maybe someone already answered it. When the machine is purchased, are these restrictions or rules part o the sales agreement?

As a separate comment, I can see some backyard mechanical experts messing up some repairs unless they really know what they're doing with a computer chip or a set of wrenches.
 
Very easy way to make the manufacturers change their position on this and that is for people to quit buying their product until they do.That said it won't happen because most likely the people wanting to work on the machines are the 2nd or 3rd owner not the original buyer.No reason for JD to really worry about them.I run old equipment no reason the company that built my equipment to care whether I like the way they operate or not,I'm just glad for the things they do supply.Nothing new about the repair deal either,dealers used to closely guard repair manuals and most wouldn't sell a farmer one.
 
The machine I'm responsible for from the engineering side goes a step beyond just publishing the diagnostic trouble codes, we display them right there on the machine's monitor and give a plain English (or whatever language the monitor is set for) description of what it is. There's also a chronological list of past DTC's that is stored in non-volatile memory along with a count of how often each has occurred. This allows you to look up a DTC that flashed on the screen so briefly that you didn't get a chance to read it. But, as you say, the source code for the machine's control software will never be available. When the buyer purchases the machine they are buying the compiled software - they are not buying the un-compiled source code. It's no different than the fact that the purchase of the machine doesn't give the buyer access to all my development work that went into making the final mechanical design what it is. They are buying the final product and that includes the compiled (and thus un-changeable) software that controls it.

True, anyone with a torch and welder can modify the mechanical portion of the machine all they want (it's their machine, after all) but that history is easy to see in the event of product liability or warranty issues. This wouldn't be the case if a controller is flashed with modified software - the original software could easily be re-flashed following an unfortunate incident caused by a rogue programmer and the manufacturer could have a hard time proving it wasn't their fault. I know very well how complicated and intertwined a machine's control software can be and it would be impossible for an outside person to dive into the source code and start making modifications without screwing something up with potentially dangerous consequences. Virtually no software packages that you buy are open source and the machine control software that comes with your new farm equipment is no different.
 
(quoted from post at 15:07:16 07/07/21) When GM released the Volt electric car, they only leased the cars, they did not sell any. At the end of the leases GM did not re-lease or resell them.
Click to expand...


You must be thinking of the GM. EV1 built and leased in the late 90's.

Volts were sold out right and can be bought as used now.
 
Very true. Manufacturers have to focus on satisfying the initial buyer if they want to stay in business. Resale value is a plus, but is often a low priority to most buyers. If a machine does pay for itself for the first owner, sales won't be good.

I'm surprised how many parts are still available for fifty to eighty plus year old tractors that were designed for a market in which they would be obsolete after ten years and most likely worn out after twenty years of hard use.
 
Well since I can buy any part I want for a new John Deere you do have the right to repair just not the right to the software . Cummins has the same thing so does fiat so does agco . Usually you can find a moonlighting mechanic who will come and hook up to your machine and tell you what you need to fix it but the dealers are clamping down on it why should they pay all the bills while Ill pocket money on it ? Please tell me George which new tractor you have that you cant buy parts or a manual for and Ill help you out
 
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