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Running E85 in a 350 Chevy

F

Fritz Maurer

Well-known Member
My son is stationed in San Diego where gas is $4.29 / gallon. He has converted a Holley 4160 with these weird spacers between the bowl and the metering blocks , the maker of which claims you can run E85 in a regular engine. There is a little screw on top to change it back to straight gas when necessary. The reason for this is the E is $2.89 currently. The project seems to work for the most part , but has a hesitation right off the bottom. Its a full size GMC with a 350 of unknown origin, 4 speed, 373 gears. He is currently not running a air cleaner. Not knowing how cars designed to burn E85 actually do it, I was hoping someone would explain the process , so I would be better equipped to help him . We welcome all suggestions. Thanks , Fritz
 
There is more to preparing a vehicle for E85 than just changing the carburetor. The fuel lines, tank, and other parts that will be exposed to that amount of alcohol must be considered. I would think there would be enough info on the subject on the web to be adequately informative.
 
I suspect the added blocks just richen up the mixture enough it will run on E85. It will take a lot of trial and error jetting to get the most out of it. Holleys are difficult to jet anyway.

When you go back to E10 and close the screw, it puts the carb back to where it was jetted for gas.

He better keep a close watch for gas leaks, especially with that Holley. It has internal and external diaphragms that are not going to be happy with the ethanol. Same for the fuel pump and the neoprene lines.

Don't expect the same performance or mileage, there is not the same energy in ethanol as gas. It's a trade off, so it's not like the price difference is all up front.
 
I'm pretty sure all vehicles designed to run E85 are fuel injected with the computer controlling it, and the E85 pump that I got some from stated a wide range of blend depending on the time of year. I tried some this spring, burned a lot faster!
 
Cant help you on the carburetor question, but my last Chevy truck (2010) was called a flex-fuel vehicle , which meant all fuel system components would handle up to e85 , although we dont have it here. It even had a different fuel filter than the non flex-fuel trucks. I would proceed with caution unless he is positive every fuel system component is e85 compatible. When they made e10 gas mandatory here in NY 10-12 years back my Chevy Impala with v6 engine lost 2 mpg compared to non ethanol gas so e85 might not be the bargain it appears to be. I believe a fuel injected computer controlled engine set up for up to e85 would have the best shot at good use and economy with e85. If he is worried about gas mileage a carburetor equipped 350 isnt going to be the answer no matter what he does to itin my opinion.
 
Take all the warning about alcohol above seriously. Car fuel systems from the filler cap, to the exhaust pipe are not made for Ethanol. It WILL damage things when it sits for a few days. Filler neck rubber, hoses, diaphrams, alum fuel lines, gaskets, seals, valves, etc. All will be affected seriously by E85.

BTW, Holley makes an E85 designed carb. I would start with that, and work backward and forward with all the other components to see that they are suitable. Look for swelled lines, and gooey rubber fuel components. You'll find them eventually when they disintegrate and maybe burn the car/truck to a crisp.
 
Alcohol has less BTU per unit, thus, you will go thru more fluid to maintain the same horsepower. Somewhere around 30% more. My son & I both have pick ups set up for E-85 (with the yellow gas caps). We've both done experiments burning E-85 over E-10 (standard stuff here in Michigan). You DO go thru more fluid, and it actually cost more per mile burning E-85 than E-10. We've both stayed with E-10 as the more cost efficient fuel for our trucks.
 
Why would anyone want to use E85?

Fuel Economy and Cost
After refueling we put the fuel amounts and the prices paid into a spreadsheet and compiled a clear, side-by-side comparison for both fuel consumption and cost. Remember, these results apply only to this vehicle and to the prices in effect during our 667-mile test.

Gas Result:
From San Diego to Las Vegas and back, we used 36.5 gallons of regular gasoline and achieved an average fuel economy of 18.3 mpg.

Gas Cost:
We spent $124.66 for gasoline for the trip. The average pump price was $3.42 per gallon.

E85 Result:
From San Diego to Las Vegas and back we used 50 gallons of E85 and achieved an average fuel economy of 13.5 mpg.

E85 Cost:
We spent $154.29 on ethanol for the trip. The average pump price was $3.09 per gallon.

Gas vs. E85 difference:
The fuel economy of our Tahoe on E85 under these conditions was 26.5 percent worse than it was on gas.

A motorist filling up and comparing the prices of regular gas and E85 might see the price advantage of ethanol (in our case 33 cents, or 9.7 percent, less) as a bargain. However, since fuel economy is significantly reduced, the net effect is that a person choosing to run a flex-fuel vehicle on E85 on a trip like ours will spend 22.8 percent more to drive the same distance. For us, the E85 trip was about $30 more expensive about 22.9 cents per mile on E85 versus 18.7 cents per mile with gasoline.
edmunds fuel economy test
 
(quoted from post at 15:06:32 06/09/21) My son is stationed in San Diego where gas is $4.29 / gallon. He has converted a Holley 4160 with these weird spacers between the bowl and the metering blocks , the maker of which claims you can run E85 in a regular engine. There is a little screw on top to change it back to straight gas when necessary. The reason for this is the E is $2.89 currently. The project seems to work for the most part , but has a hesitation right off the bottom. Its a full size GMC with a 350 of unknown origin, 4 speed, 373 gears. He is currently not running a air cleaner. Not knowing how cars designed to burn E85 actually do it, I was hoping someone would explain the process , so I would be better equipped to help him . We welcome all suggestions. Thanks , Fritz
Click to expand...
he three things that usually cause off-idle stumble on a Holley are:
1)discharge nozzle too small (I've gone as high as .040")
2)accelerator pump linkage out of adjustment (at wide open throttle you should be .015" from bottoming out)
3)wrong accelerator pump cam for the application (They usually come with a white cam. I've had ok luck with the black cam, but am quite fond of the red cam.)

If you change the pump cam, you will need to adjust the linkage.

Best of luck.
 
Running without an air cleaner in SoCal, he won't have to worry about gas mileage for long. If he doesn't lose his truck to an engine fire, the crap in the air will destroy whatever is left of that 350's rings.
 
People somehow do not understand that it takes more E85 to get the job done. They only see the price per gallon. Seems I recall that the E85 price has to be about 30% below gas price just to break even. What is the actual BE number?
 
(quoted from post at 21:23:56 06/09/21) People somehow do not understand that it takes more E85 to get the job done. They only see the price per gallon. Seems I recall that the E85 price has to be about 30% below gas price just to break even. What is the actual BE number?
Click to expand...
ome governments are subsidizing E-85 through tax breaks and other incentives to keep the price at the pump artificially low. You can like it or not like it as you prefer, but a person would be foolish not to take advantage of it if it works for you.
 
Yes, ethanol is not a bad fuel, it just needs to be utilized better, I'd like to see a e85 only engine with a high compression and compare it that way!
 
For his old truck ethanol is nothing but BAD & he will pay dearly!!!!!!!! Cost of destruction. BTDT, sadly!
 
None of what you say is true about
vehicles and parts built past about 1980.
That was the point manufacturers learned
their lessons about gasohol and started
making rubber components compatible.
 
Don't pay any mind to the doom sayers. People like to blame ethanol for their poor maintenance practices. I have run E85 in several pieces of equipment and a car that all not designed for it with no problems. But then again, I take care of my stuff.

The first thing I would recommend is replacing all rubber fuel line if this vehicle is older than 1980 and might still have original rubber line anywhere. Other than that, it is all just tuning. Like others have said, you need a higher volume of fuel than E10. Alcohol is also more viscous than gas, so the orifices have to be even bigger. As others have said, you may need to upsized the accelerator pump. You may also need to increase the power valve size.

Not being familiar with the device you mentioned, I can't speak to it. But I am skeptical that it will be able to be made to run perfect without a dedicated carburetor specifically setup for E85.
 
(quoted from post at 04:19:06 06/10/21) None of what you say is true about
vehicles and parts built past about 1980.
That was the point manufacturers learned
their lessons about gasohol and started
making rubber components compatible.
Click to expand...

YES!! I have used E85 in my 1940 Farmall H. Required a couple minutes more warm up time but started and ran quite well otherwise. Have also ran it in my 2001 Silverado with the 8.1 engine. Again, a little more warm up time was required but was just fine after that.

As far as using it in a 350 engine with carburetor, probably should have tried it with the stock set-up, before making any modifications. Probably would have been just fine.
 
Increasing the fuel pump delivery both in volume and its cam timing/stroke rate will solve the drivability issue. The replacement of any vintage hoses, or pre ethanol fuel pumps would be preventive medicine. The cost ration being discussed appears to favor the E-85. Though having a shorter range between fills could be considered, unless the fill timing is at the last dregs in the tank it will make little difference. Do it. Jim
 
(quoted from post at 18:23:56 06/09/21) People somehow do not understand that it takes more E85 to get the job done. They only see the price per gallon. Seems I recall that the E85 price has to be about 30% below gas price just to break even. What is the actual BE number?
Click to expand...

With regular gas at $4.29 a gallon and E85 at $2.89 a gallon the difference is 33%. So it is slightly cheaper to run the E85 in this situation, provided they can get the jetting right.

What astounds me is that CA is allowing that vehicle on the road. I thought anything old had to be parked, sold out of state, or scrapped for pollution abatement.
 
(quoted from post at 10:17:08 06/10/21) I think the key word is stationed, military members maintain their state of residence.
Click to expand...

Or it is a hotrod/toy/desert runner???

Unless he converted engine to carburetor, it is a 1986 or older truck.
 

I question that. I don't think anyone knows what the long term effect is on engine life. If....IF E85 significantly changes engine life if can go from being a deal to being a bad deal.

I do know several people who tried E85 and won't buy it again.

Rick
 
Sorry, forgotten to mention it was a 1974. He
bought it from an undocumented voter , the engine
was built from parts from at least 3 parts donors
and spent the last year working the bugs out of it.
When the quadrajet failed( loose Welch plugs in the
upper body) he wanted to take advantage of the
E85 price and see what the results would be.
Seems to run pretty good, except for that annoying
hesitation. Would heating the intake air do
anything?
 
Does it stumble right at the crack of the throttle which would lead to accelerator pump issues there is an adjustment at the pump arm make sure there is no slack between the arm and the lever IF how ever it stumbles just beyond the crack of the throttle then i would raise the power valve number by 1 whole number if it has say a 4.5 power valve now I would raise it to 5.5 which would make it open sooner and there fore richening the mixture sooner and IF that helped but did not cure it go up again to 6.5 at least you would know your on the right track
 
Good question grizz I will find out. So far he advanced the timing 12 degrees , then back to 4 , and that netted slight improvement. Thanks.
 
I kinda agree with the above statement's about E85. But No one has mentioned its octane is 108 . My F250 with a 6.2 Gas engine. Pulls noticeably better on E85. So for Sunday afternoon going to tractor pull I have ran it low on gas and filled with E85. 2.75 E10 was 3.23. I'm just glad It is available. And cheap. Also the tax breaks are gone. The DGB's are worth more than corn. They are 1/2 the protein of Soybeans.
 
(quoted from post at 12:44:45 06/10/21) According to the Hot Rod article the Holley E85
carb is aluminum. How are they getting around
that?
Click to expand...

Good anodizing treatment to at least the internal surfaces.
There is also teflon coatings and many other proprietary treatments being done.
 
(quoted from post at 13:34:39 06/10/21)
(quoted from post at 12:44:45 06/10/21) According to the Hot Rod article the Holley E85
carb is aluminum. How are they getting around
that?
Click to expand...

Good anodizing treatment to at least the internal surfaces.
There is also teflon coatings and many other proprietary treatments being done.
Click to expand...
ure came to wrong place to get "information"....lot of "opinions" though and 2001 Chevys with 8.1L/494 cu in engines, too! :roll:
 
(quoted from post at 15:00:30 06/10/21)
(quoted from post at 13:34:39 06/10/21)
(quoted from post at 12:44:45 06/10/21) According to the Hot Rod article the Holley E85
carb is aluminum. How are they getting around
that?
Click to expand...

Good anodizing treatment to at least the internal surfaces.
There is also teflon coatings and many other proprietary treatments being done.
Click to expand...
ure came to wrong place to get "information"....lot of "opinions" though and 2001 Chevys with 8.1L/494 cu in engines, too! :roll:
Click to expand...

Helpful corrections to what you think is opinion vs info is more helpful than adding a useless and snide reply.
 
(quoted from post at 14:26:13 06/10/21)
(quoted from post at 15:00:30 06/10/21)
(quoted from post at 13:34:39 06/10/21)
(quoted from post at 12:44:45 06/10/21) According to the Hot Rod article the Holley E85
carb is aluminum. How are they getting around
that?
Click to expand...

Good anodizing treatment to at least the internal surfaces.
There is also teflon coatings and many other proprietary treatments being done.
Click to expand...
ure came to wrong place to get "information"....lot of "opinions" though and 2001 Chevys with 8.1L/494 cu in engines, too! :roll:
Click to expand...

Helpful corrections to what you think is opinion vs info is more helpful than adding a useless and snide reply.
Click to expand...
:lol: :lol: :lol:
 
(quoted from post at 09:58:23 06/10/21) I kinda agree with the above statement's about E85. But No one has mentioned its octane is 108 . My F250 with a 6.2 Gas engine. Pulls noticeably better on E85. So for Sunday afternoon going to tractor pull I have ran it low on gas and filled with E85. 2.75 E10 was 3.23. I'm just glad It is available. And cheap. Also the tax breaks are gone. The DGB's are worth more than corn. They are 1/2 the protein of Soybeans.
Click to expand...

$2.75 over $3.23 is only a 15% difference, about half of what you lose in fuel economy, so E85 is costing you more to run.

If the truck runs better and makes better power, it may be worth it to you.
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85#:~:text=E85%20is%20an%20abbreviation%20typically%20referring%20to%20an,in%20E85%20as%20ranging%20from%2051%25%20to%2083%25.
 

1.38 gallons of E85 to obtain the same BTU as 1.0 gallon of gasoline .

Gasoline gallon equivalent tables
GGE calculated for gasoline in US gallons at 114000 BTU per gallon,
or 7594 kilocalories per litre[2]
Fuel: liquid, US gallons GGE GGE % BTU/gal kWh/gal HP-hr/gal kcal/litre
Gasoline (base)[3] 1.0000 100.00% 114,000 33.41 44.79 7594.0
Gasoline (conventional, summer)[3] 0.9960 100.40% 114,500 33.56 44.99 7624.5
Gasoline (conventional, winter)[3] 1.0130 98.72% 112,500 32.97 44.20 7496.5
Gasoline (reformulated gasoline, E10 - ethanol)[3] 1.0190 98.14% 111,836 32.78 43.94 7452.4
Gasoline (reformulated gasoline, ETBE)[3] 1.0190 98.14% 111,811 32.77 43.93 7452.4
Gasoline (reformulated gasoline, MTBE)[3] 1.0200 98.04% 111,745 32.75 43.90 7445.1
Gasoline (10% MTBE)[4] 1.0200 98.04% 112,000 32.83 44.00 7445.1
Gasoline (regular unleaded)[5] 1.0000 100.00% 114,100 33.44 44.83 7594.0
Diesel #2[5] 0.8800 113.64% 129,500 37.95 50.87 8629.8
Biodiesel (B100)[6] 0.9536 104.87% 119,550 35.04 47.64 7958.5
Biodiesel (B20)[5] 0.9000 111.11% 127,250 37.12 49.76 8437.7
Liquid natural gas (LNG)[5] 1.5362 65.10% 75,000 21.75 29.16 4943.3
Liquefied petroleum gas (propane / autogas) (LPG)[5] 1.2470 80.19% 91,500 26.82 35.95 6089.8
Methanol fuel (M100)[5] 2.0100 49.75% 56,800 16.62 22.28 3778.1
Ethanol fuel (E100)[5] 1.5000 66.67% 76,100 22.27 29.85 5062.7
Ethanol (E85)[5] 1.3900 71.94% 81,800 24.04 32.23 5463.3
Jet fuel (naphtha)[7] 0.9700 103.09% 118,700 34.44 46.17 7828.9
Jet fuel (kerosene)[7] 0.9000 111.11% 128,100 37.12 49.76 8437.7
GGE calculated on non-liquid fuels
Fuel: non-liquid GGE GGE % BTU/unit kWh/unit
Gasoline (base)[3][8] 1.0000 100.00% 114,000 BTU/gal 33.41
Compressed natural gas (CNG) at standard conditions [6] 123.57 cu ft (3.499 m3) 20,160 BTU/lb
Compressed natural gas (CNG) at 2400 psi (17 MPa) 0.77 cu ft (0.022 m3)
Hydrogen at 101.325 kPa 357.37 cu ft (10.120 m3) 319 BTU/cu ft[9]
Hydrogen by weight 0.997 kg (2.198 lb)[10] 119.9 MJ/kg (51,500 BTU/lb, equivalent of 304,368 BTU/gal)[11]
Electricity 33.40 kilowatt-hours 3,413 BTU/(kWh) [12][13] 33.40
 
I dont recall if the 4160 has vacuum secondaries or mechanical secondaries. I used to have a similar set up in my Camaro when I was a kid. I had a sag when I stepped on it from the takeoff. I found some accelerator pump cams for the accelerator pump. I tried a few of them until I found one that got rid of the hesitation. If you have mechanical secondaries you need to dump a lot of fuel in at takeoff. I dont care for E 85 or any oxygenated fuel in old carbureted engines. The new fuel seems to cause a lot of troubles in my carbureted tractors.
 
YES!! I have used E85 in my 1940 Farmall H. Required a couple minutes more warm up time but started and ran quite well otherwise.
Click to expand...

Rusty,
Have you found an increase in fuel usage with your H? My H doesn't see much heavy work, but the 450 does. I know if I'm WOT with the 450 on the New Idea Cut/Ditioner it's thirsty with E-10. I've considered filling the barrel with E-85, but still too scared. I think you're from central IA, I'm from East IA. Like you we've had E-10 on the farm for years w/o problems.
 
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