Can someone please explain...

Can someone please explain Horsepower to me? In extra small words so I might understand. See I've heard that IH measured Horsepower different than John deere, and Ford different than both. I'm talking about 1950s and 1960s tractors by the way.
I own a Farmall 460, its rated at 50 Horsepower or there about. My brother owns a Ford 860, its rated about the same but my tractor could work his to death. Both are in about the same condition. So what does the pony rating really mean? My tractor is rated for a 4bottom plow, his is rated for a 3 bottom plow. My boss has a JD 4020, rated at 95 Horsepower. Rated for a 6 bottom plow. I know 14 inch v.s 16 inch plows and who made the plow plays into it but I just don't understand Horsepower.
-Garrett
 
Horsepower is horsepower is horsepower. Just different ways to interpret it. Engine horsepower could be rated on a stand with no gen/alt, water pump/fan or PS. PTO or drawbar is another way. When it gets to actual pulling the tires, ground condition, weight setup all have an effect as well as the operator. Which one is tuned better. Too many variables.
 
There are lots of variables in getting that horsepower to the ground.What is the gearing on the trans or rearend?Tire size comes into play and overall weight of the tractor,that's why in racing the same HP. engine will hook up better in one car than it will in the other.
 
I am not really good at this-but horsepower and torque are the two measurements of power. I do not know how much, but your tractor will have more torque than his. Also your engine is a 6 cylinder vs. his 4 cylinder. More displacement. All diesel semi engines are rated more by torque than horsepower. For example an engine might be 400hp, but have 1650ft lbs of torque. Many cars today may be rated at 300 hp but only 400ft lbs torque. I have heard of dirt bikes having 40 hp but you know it would not pull a car down the road like a 4 cyl VW car engine. Torque is the best measure of power, even though we all just want to know the horsepower! Mark.
 
Horsepower and torque is measured the same for each tractor at the Nebraska test labs. Nobody had a special formula. Your 460 is outworking the 860 because it is the bigger tractor by about 7 drawbar horsepower. It shouldnt be a surprise.

https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2139&context=tractormuseumlit



https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2084&context=tractormuseumlit
 
Engine horsepower, drawbar horsepower or PTO horsepower? These are three sets of information that you will see when looking at Nebraska tractor testing findings. The three are not the same and should not be compared. Different companies would advertise using the one that allowed them to have the best rating. You as an informed customer need to review and compare the numbers you care most about.
1958 Model 460 Diesel was test number 672 in Nebraska it developed 50.10 HP PTO at 1800 RPM
I do not see in my books of test results where a Ford 860 was ever tested.
 
My Gravely 8163B garden tractor is a 16hp single cylinder tractor. My Farmall BN is also rated at 16hp. The Farmall will certainly pull a bigger load than the Gravely. That has to do with tractor weight, number of cylinders and engine RPM'S.
That's all I know.
Dave
 
(quoted from post at 11:40:53 05/09/21) Can someone please explain Horsepower to me? In extra small words so I might understand. See I've heard that IH measured Horsepower different than John deere, and Ford different than both. I'm talking about 1950s and 1960s tractors by the way.
I own a Farmall 460, its rated at 50 Horsepower or there about. My brother owns a Ford 860, its rated about the same but my tractor could work his to death. Both are in about the same condition. So what does the pony rating really mean? My tractor is rated for a 4bottom plow, his is rated for a 3 bottom plow. My boss has a JD 4020, rated at 95 Horsepower. Rated for a 6 bottom plow. I know 14 inch v.s 16 inch plows and who made the plow plays into it but I just don't understand Horsepower.
-Garrett
ames Watt (1736-1819) measured the rate at which an average draft horse could do mechanical work, leading to measurements of exerting a force of 150 lbs while walking at 2.5 mi/hr. Thus the definition 1 hp = 550 ft-lb/sec =33,000ft-lb/min was forever set.
1hp -550 ft-lb/sec = 746 Watts
 
Torque is simply how much force you can apply to something
Horsepower, in simple terms, is how fast and far can you move it, once torque has got it started.
This is a simplified explanation, of course it will be debated, but there it is.
 
I've never really understood it either.

The common dyno measurement is at the flywheel.

By the time it gets through the drive train it has taken a dramatic loss.

So engine HP and useable HP are dramatically different.

And comparing mechanical HP to draft horse power just doesn't add up in my mind!

Is there really a comparison to the pulling ability of a 1 HP gas or electric motor to a real live panicked runaway horse? LOL
 
I know a lot of times the info on Tractordata.com is not 100 percent correct. But I will put a link to the 460 page there. In the ..Power.. section there is a link there that takes you to a condensed info page on several of the tests performed on your tractor model. From there you can click a link that takes you to the same ..Nebraska test.. data that ..Envy posted links to. On tractor data if you click the bold ..TractorData.. at the top left it takes you to the index of brands of you are looking to compare.
TD IH 460 page
 
(quoted from post at 10:46:18 05/09/21) I've never really understood it either.

The common dyno measurement is at the flywheel.

By the time it gets through the drive train it has taken a dramatic loss.

So engine HP and useable HP are dramatically different.

And comparing mechanical HP to draft horse power just doesn't add up in my mind!

Is there really a comparison to the pulling ability of a 1 HP gas or electric motor to a real live panicked runaway horse?
LOL

Or steam horsepower compared to internal combustion horsepower compared to electric horsepower compared to the panicked runaway horse power.
 
A 1 hp electric motor can supply 1 hp from its shaft basically forever. Or at least until the bearings wear out. If you apply more than a 1 hp load, the motor will put out a bit extra until the overload trips.

James Watts horse was able to deliver 1 hp average over the course of a workday. A live draft horse is capable of much more than one HP for a short duration. Unfortunately the draft horses overload protection is fatal, so it is best not to push them.

Watt should have used a mule power.
 
It was explained to me like this. Horsepower is the rate of doing work. And torque is the twisting motion. That is why you can have two engines rated the same horsepower yet perform differently in the field. Example, take 290 hp JD 619 engine in the 8650 and compare it to a 280 ho Cummins 855 or Cat 3406 in a Versatile or Steiger. All three engines are rated about the same yet in the field, the big block engines walk all over the JD. It shows up in the torque ratings for each engine.
 
Torque is NOT a measurement of power - it is just a force times a distance. To get power you must deliver the torque at some rate, typically revs per minute when talking about an engine. Multiplying the torque by the speed is what defines the engine's power. An engine's torque rating by itself is meaningless when determining how much work it can do in a given time period. Only after combining it with the rpm at which it's produced does torque become useful but at this point you are by definition talking about power.
 
JMOR had a good explanation of the origin of the term. James Watt wanted to sell steam engines that could duplicate the working abilities of horses. As equipment at the time was built for horses on treadmills, it was typically sized in terms of how many horses were required to make it work. Hence one horse, two horse, etc. Animals were typically yoked with others of similar size, so it made no sense to have a 1.5 horse piece of machinery at the time.

The horsepower was defined as a force(lbs) x velocity(fps), which gives us the measurement of 550 ft*lbs/second. This was for pulling in a straight line. For rotary power, the definition is still the same, but the measurement is strange.

For rotary power, the measurement is torque(ft*lbs) x rotational velocity (radians/sec). RPM is a much more common unit of rotational velocity, so you have to multiply by 2*pi and divide by 60 to get the result in radians/sec. If this number works out to be 550 ft*lbs/second, you have an engine or motor that will give you 1 HP.

Applying this math to an everyday application is less than straightforward. One common mistake is to overlook the velocity component of horsepower. If you are not careful, you can reach bogus conclusions. Say a locomotive is getting ready to pull a train from a station. The coupler load is in the 10,000's of lbs, but the train hasn't moved (yet). Strictly speaking: HP = force x velocity = ZERO! Then some guys pulls up in his 400HP pickup and claims he has more horsepower than the locomotive, and therefore can pull the train. Clearly not. The locomotive could pull that truck around all day and not even know it was there.

The same trick can be done to artificially increase the horsepower rating of an engine for advertising purposes. Car manufacturers will often report their engine HP ratings at 6000 RPM. I never drive with my engine running this fast. I am typically only at 2000 RPM, so I would only get 1/3 of the claimed HP in real experience. But the math (torque x rotational velocity) gives a big, impressive number for advertising.

Then there is the matter of indicated horsepower, brake horsepower, drawbar horsepower, and actual horsepower. Indicated is the *maximum* amount an engine can produce, based on its firing pressures, bore, and stroke. The user will never see this amount. Brake horsepower is supposed to be the amount measured at the brakes, e.g. after all the internal loads & transmission losses are account for. Again, BHP as it is known, is a *maximum* number of horsepower--e.g. engine loaded almost to the point of stall.

Drawbar horsepower is as measured at the drawbar. This is similar to Watt's original definition. A spring scale is fitted between the drawbar and the wagon load, and this maximum drawing force is measured, along with the speed of the pull in ft/sec. Divide by 550 to get drawbar HP. Again, this is a *maximum* number.

Lastly, actual horsepower is what the machine is actually producing. A tractor pulling a wagon up a steep hill and loaded to the point of stall is producing close to its maximum drawbar (or indicated, or brake) horsepower. The same tractor going down hill, with brakes applied is producing ZERO horsepower, even though its engine is running. Why? Because it's not pulling anything--if anything, the wagon is pushing it. So actual horsepower is what the engine is actually producing. This will always be less than the maximum horsepower available.

The Nebraska tests typically reported drawbar pull (sometimes called tractive effort) for tractors alongside HP, as this is a more useful number than HP alone. An over-sized engine on too light a tractor will simply lose traction and spin its wheels. This is why a 30HP farm tractor can pull that 400HP pickup out of the mud with ease. Tractive effort counts more than HP in many situations. Locomotives are rated in terms of tractive effort for this reason. Rocket and jet engines are also typically rated in terms of thrust, which would be the same thing as drawbar pull if the rocket had a drawbar. All three of these are just the force part of HP, without the velocity, to avoid bogus conclusions.

Matching HP to load is also a source of confusion. It may take only 10 drawbar HP to pull an empty wagon, but 30 HP to pull it when loaded. But using a Farmall M (~33HP drawbar HP as tested) to pull the empty wagon isn't going to break it. Again, as long as the power required is less than the power available, it will work. The tractor will just burn less fuel when pulling the light load. The same thing is true when using a 5HP electric motor to run a saw that only needs 2 HP. The extra 3HP isn't wasted-- the motor just draws less current than for which it is rated. The trouble comes in as most engines produce different amounts of horsepower at different speeds--the so called speed-torque curves. Electric motors have their own curves, as do steam engines, etc. And the same thing is true for loads--pulling twice the speed is not always twice the power. This can get complicated quickly.

Then why is HP even used? A lot of it is just habit. Say a farmer with a team of horses wanted an engine that could replace two horses. But a draft animal is more than a source of power--it has hooves (traction), and can pull with enormous force at slow speeds (that velocity component), but can also break into a trot or a gallop if it has to. It would be difficult to capture all this data with several numbers, much less one number. So the horse equivalent is used, as a carry-over from the old days, although its meaning is less and less clear.

Sorry that went so long, but I wanted to make sure I was thorough. Others will likely have other information to add. In short, HP is a number. A useful number, but still just a number.
Dave
 
Nebraska Test Results was set up so each manufacture's tractor was tested the same so you could compare apples to apples when it came to hp.
 
(quoted from post at 15:37:18 05/09/21) JMOR had a good explanation of the origin of the term. James Watt wanted to sell steam engines that could duplicate the working abilities of horses. As equipment at the time was built for horses on treadmills, it was typically sized in terms of how many horses were required to make it work. Hence one horse, two horse, etc. Animals were typically yoked with others of similar size, so it made no sense to have a 1.5 horse piece of machinery at the time.

The horsepower was defined as a force(lbs) x velocity(fps), which gives us the measurement of 550 ft*lbs/second. This was for pulling in a straight line. For rotary power, the definition is still the same, but the measurement is strange.

For rotary power, the measurement is torque(ft*lbs) x rotational velocity (radians/sec). RPM is a much more common unit of rotational velocity, so you have to multiply by 2*pi and divide by 60 to get the result in radians/sec. If this number works out to be 550 ft*lbs/second, you have an engine or motor that will give you 1 HP.

Applying this math to an everyday application is less than straightforward. One common mistake is to overlook the velocity component of horsepower. If you are not careful, you can reach bogus conclusions. Say a locomotive is getting ready to pull a train from a station. The coupler load is in the 10,000's of lbs, but the train hasn't moved (yet). Strictly speaking: HP = force x velocity = ZERO! Then some guys pulls up in his 400HP pickup and claims he has more horsepower than the locomotive, and therefore can pull the train. Clearly not. The locomotive could pull that truck around all day and not even know it was there.

The same trick can be done to artificially increase the horsepower rating of an engine for advertising purposes. Car manufacturers will often report their engine HP ratings at 6000 RPM. I never drive with my engine running this fast. I am typically only at 2000 RPM, so I would only get 1/3 of the claimed HP in real experience. But the math (torque x rotational velocity) gives a big, impressive number for advertising.

Then there is the matter of indicated horsepower, brake horsepower, drawbar horsepower, and actual horsepower. Indicated is the *maximum* amount an engine can produce, based on its firing pressures, bore, and stroke. The user will never see this amount. Brake horsepower is supposed to be the amount measured at the brakes, e.g. after all the internal loads & transmission losses are account for. Again, BHP as it is known, is a *maximum* number of horsepower--e.g. engine loaded almost to the point of stall.

Drawbar horsepower is as measured at the drawbar. This is similar to Watt's original definition. A spring scale is fitted between the drawbar and the wagon load, and this maximum drawing force is measured, along with the speed of the pull in ft/sec. Divide by 550 to get drawbar HP. Again, this is a *maximum* number.

Lastly, actual horsepower is what the machine is actually producing. A tractor pulling a wagon up a steep hill and loaded to the point of stall is producing close to its maximum drawbar (or indicated, or brake) horsepower. The same tractor going down hill, with brakes applied is producing ZERO horsepower, even though its engine is running. Why? Because it's not pulling anything--if anything, the wagon is pushing it. So actual horsepower is what the engine is actually producing. This will always be less than the maximum horsepower available.

The Nebraska tests typically reported drawbar pull (sometimes called tractive effort) for tractors alongside HP, as this is a more useful number than HP alone. An over-sized engine on too light a tractor will simply lose traction and spin its wheels. This is why a 30HP farm tractor can pull that 400HP pickup out of the mud with ease. Tractive effort counts more than HP in many situations. Locomotives are rated in terms of tractive effort for this reason. Rocket and jet engines are also typically rated in terms of thrust, which would be the same thing as drawbar pull if the rocket had a drawbar. All three of these are just the force part of HP, without the velocity, to avoid bogus conclusions.

Matching HP to load is also a source of confusion. It may take only 10 drawbar HP to pull an empty wagon, but 30 HP to pull it when loaded. But using a Farmall M (~33HP drawbar HP as tested) to pull the empty wagon isn't going to break it. Again, as long as the power required is less than the power available, it will work. The tractor will just burn less fuel when pulling the light load. The same thing is true when using a 5HP electric motor to run a saw that only needs 2 HP. The extra 3HP isn't wasted-- the motor just draws less current than for which it is rated. The trouble comes in as most engines produce different amounts of horsepower at different speeds--the so called speed-torque curves. Electric motors have their own curves, as do steam engines, etc. And the same thing is true for loads--pulling twice the speed is not always twice the power. This can get complicated quickly.

Then why is HP even used? A lot of it is just habit. Say a farmer with a team of horses wanted an engine that could replace two horses. But a draft animal is more than a source of power--it has hooves (traction), and can pull with enormous force at slow speeds (that velocity component), but can also break into a trot or a gallop if it has to. It would be difficult to capture all this data with several numbers, much less one number. So the horse equivalent is used, as a carry-over from the old days, although its meaning is less and less clear.

Sorry that went so long, but I wanted to make sure I was thorough. Others will likely have other information to add. In short, HP is a number. A useful number, but still just a number.
Dave
omeone had to define any means of measurement/comparison, pounds, inches, meters, velocity, acceleration.....HP is just another of those measures..
Just more food for thought: HP and torque are always equal at 5252 rpm. :)
 

The problem is that most people confuse torque rise with power . Mention torque curve and HP curve and they back away in fear and confusion .
 
You are correct-the large diesel engine torque ratings were always stated at a specific RPM. Such as 1650ft lbs @ 1400rpm, and max RPM was 1800. Mark.
 
Simply stated, power is a rate of doing work. And work is defined as exerting a force through a distance. So, if you exert a force of one pound through one foot of distance you've performed one foot-pound of work. (This is NOT the same thing as a foot-pound of torque! The units happen to be the same, but they're quite different things.) If you pushed with one pound of force through one foot of distance in one second, the power you've applied is one foot-pound per second. If you did it in half a second, then the power is doubled to two ft-lb/sec. If it took you two seconds, that would be half a foot-pound per second.

The units may vary, but power is always force x distance / time. One horsepower is 550 ft-lb/sec or 33,000 ft-lb/min.

So far, we've only discussed power in linear terms. But engines and motors are rotary devices. Without getting into details, for rotary devices power equals torque x angular velocity. When dealing with English units, one horsepower equals (torque (in foot pounds) x rpm)/(33,000 ÷ 2π) or (torque x rpm) / 5252.

All a dynamometer does is apply a load (linear force or torque) to an engine or vehicle. If you know both the force/torque and speed/rpm, it's simple to calculate power.

When you look at the Nebraska tests, you'll see that horsepower is measured in two different ways: PTO and drawbar. PTO horsepower is simple to measure, while drawbar horsepower is not. But of course drawbar horsepower is for most purposes the more important measurement, since it measures the actual rate at which work can be done pulling an implement. Which is of course what really matters.
 
For a farmer I believe horsepower is better explained by pulling force combined with speed. That is what he can see in the field and should understand it easier. Pulling a load of say 2000 lbs at 3 mph will be equal to about 16 drawbar horsepower, engine horsepower required could be in the order of 20hp ( 1hp will be lost in transmission and say 3hp by wheelslip).If the speed will be increased to 6mph the drawbar horsepower will also doubled to 32 hp. Or if the pulling force could be doubled to 4000lbs at the same speed the drawbar horsepower could also be doubled.If the tractor is not weighted properly it will however not be able to pull 4000 lb, same with the engine,if its maximum horsepower output is only something like 35hp it will not be able to pull a load of 4000 lb at 6 mph. Engine will just die out.
 
(quoted from post at 22:01:08 05/09/21) Thanks everyone, I kinda feel like a idiot now but I definitely understand better. Thanks again


Don't forget HP is also an advertising tool. Lotta typewriter HP out there!
 
The tractor manufacturers play numbers games to have bragging rights, plain and simple. They like to make you think that one horsepower number is the end-all, be all, and they design their engines to produce peak horsepower at one RPM just so they can say they have the most horsepower.

THAT is where you get these tractors that supposedly have the "same horsepower" yet one can easily work circles around the other.
 

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