getting power from windmills to grid

Interesting post below about electrical posts/towers. Now here is a question, an electrician and I were discussing today. Neighboring counties are acquiring some rather impressive wind farms. They're meeting quite a bunch of resistance in putting them in in our county. But probably coming in the near future.

NOW, WITHOUT GETTING INTO THE POLITICS OF WIND FARMS, here is my question. How are they getting the power from the windmill towers to the substations? No visible overhead wires, so must be underground. What kind of transmission lines can they run wind mill power through? Voltages? Wire size? Frequency? (assuming 60 Hz, but not necessarily)? What depth and separation? I'm sure there is someone here that has some experience with this technology that can describe power transmission from these large windmills.

Ray, its been too long since I practiced power distribution so I had to look this up on the net, these are NOT my words but based on my training and experience they sound reasonable. The hard core engineering is above my pay grade having been so long retired, maybe there are some current practicing power engineers here who can answer your question??


In a wind farm, individual turbines are interconnected with a medium voltage (usually 34.5 kV) power collection system and communications network. At a substation, this medium-voltage electric current is increased in voltage with a transformer for connection to the high voltage electric power transmission system.


A transmission line is required to bring the generated power to (often remote) markets. For an offshore station, this may require a submarine cable. Construction of a new high voltage line may be too costly for the wind resource alone, but wind sites may take advantage of lines already installed for conventional fuel generation.


One of the biggest current challenges to wind power grid integration in the United States is the necessity of developing new transmission lines to carry power from wind farms, usually in remote lowly populated states in the middle of the country due to availability of wind, to high load locations, usually on the coasts where population density is higher. The current transmission lines in remote locations were not designed for the transport of large amounts of energy.[52] As transmission lines become longer the losses associated with power transmission increase, as modes of losses at lower lengths are exacerbated and new modes of losses are no longer negligible as the length is increased, making it harder to transport large loads over large distances.[53] However, resistance from state and local governments makes it difficult to construct new transmission lines. Multi-state power transmission projects are discouraged by states with cheap electric power rates for fear that exporting their cheap power will lead to increased rates. A 2005 energy law gave the Energy Department authority to approve transmission projects states refused to act on, but after an attempt to use this authority, the Senate declared the department was being overly aggressive in doing so.[52] Another problem is that wind companies find out after the fact that the transmission capacity of a new farm is below the generation capacity, largely because federal utility rules to encourage renewable energy installation allow feeder lines to meet only minimum standards. These are important issues that need to be solved, as when the transmission capacity does not meet the generation capacity, wind farms are forced to produce below their full potential or stop running altogether, in a process known as curtailment. While this leads to potential renewable generation left untapped, it prevents possible grid overload or risk to reliable service

Best I have to offer hopefully some experienced high voltage and transmission engineers and techs can add more

John T Tooooo Longgggggggggg retired

Ray,
I'm just retired and have nothing to do with power grids.
However the Green Belt express has been in our news frequently.

Grain Belt Express has obtained regulatory approval from the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission to sell transmission service to customers at negotiated rates.

The project involves construction of a 750-mile overhead direct transmission line that seeks to connect wind energy from western Kansas with utilities and customers in Missouri, Illinois, Indiana and eastern states. Officials with Clean Line Energy Partners said it is designed to deliver up to 3,500 megawatts of electricity and provide enough energy per year from more than 1.4 million homes.

NOT IN MY BACK YARD. NIMBYs

Property owners opposed to a planned network of transmission towers and power lines that would carry wind-generated electricity from western Kansas to Indiana through a portion of southern Randolph County fear the possibility of eminent domain, while Grain Belt Express promoters say the project is climate-friendly and a source of significant economic development.

It's called the green belt express because the high voltage transmission lines are DCV. No EMFs like conventional power lines that buzz at 60 hz. Before it gets to Indiana, Inverters In Illinois will convert it back to 60 hz dcv.

The NIMBYs are fighting it.
geo

There is a typical looking steel pole line not far from me that transports windwill power from Oklahoma to Memphis. I am pretty sure it is 500KV DC. There was minimal hubub about it when it was installed.

My understanding is that it is MUCH more efficient to transport DC than AC. The appatatus to convert it to AC is likely in the big substation about 1/2 mile off the road.

I don't know Ray, but from what I've been told, they want to tie in to a substation over by Greenville. The cables must have to run underground for a certain distance from the towers.

These are important issues that need to be solved, as when the transmission capacity does not meet the generation capacity, wind farms are forced to produce below their full potential or stop running altogether, in a process known as curtailment. While this leads to potential renewable generation left untapped, it prevents possible grid overload or risk to reliable service

That makes more sense than the windmills froze up in Texas last winter!

Yo Steve, It looks like there's so much conflicting government regulations red tape bureaucracy and politics that plays a part in the industry grrrrrrrrrrrrr I have no problem with wind and solar energy but I dont own land on or near windmills either......

Oh well all I can do is vote for what good that may or may not help

John T

The NIMBY's have the property owners' support against Invenergy Transmission (the owners) because the builders are trying to acquire right-of-way using eminent domain condemnation and lowball pricing. The Missouri Farm Bureau has even come out in opposition.

On the wind farm here, farmers insisted the lines be installed underground, both from the turbine through the field and along the road to the substation. The substation was built adjacent to an existing 500MV line from the local nuclear power plant and is distributed through Hydro Ones system. Looks a lot cleaner than the first wind farm which used poles. The power lines are buried well below any tile depth, and any tile cut on installing them were repaired. Farmers with a collector line buried on their farm get a tidy compensation for that as well.

Ben

It is my understanding when Edison was playing with electricity his was DC and he needed stations every few blocks where Tesla was AC which allowed him to transport his electricity over greater distances. Now i realize their technology is over 100 years old but I believe the basics still apply.

The problem was voltage rather than AC or DC. Today's installations for distance transmission are million volt DC. The use of solid state systems for increase and conversion back to AC didn't exist transformers work on AC only. Jim

Snowmobile trails in Northern Maine and NH frequently run near wind turbines, and all of them that I have seen so far have power-lines running from them.

I think most of us are too young to remember the battles over right of way and NIMBY to build the interstate highway system. In some places it took decades to finish it. It was not easy, locals put up legal barriers, etc etc etc. But can any of you imagine the antique economy we would have in America today without these big roads. The same is true of the need for an up-dated power grid, including wind and solar.


Take a drive along the Ohio River past many old coal fired power plants, and they are not so pretty either and required a lot of wires.

I wonder how many people are in favor of green energy as long as it isn't in their backyard?
There's talk if windmills off shore in N E. Where wind blows all the time.
I'm betting the Greenies will cry NIMBY yyou don't.
George

I am not a Rhodes Scholar and lots of the things happening now confuse me GO GREEN is the norm electric or electric hybrid don't electricity have to be made to charge batteries i agree coal burning is not clean and people are complaining about the windmill farms and solar farms i just read an article about the blades on the windmills being made of composite and being replaced if i remember correctly only a couple of places crush the blades and bury them is this not more things that take forever to brake down
in my opinion we have not established a system to please everyone and lead is toxic lithium i know little about i have been thinking about going back to the horse and buggy days then i smell the manure being spread close by from a dairy that milks around a thousand cows three times a day close by i am to old and lazy to ride a bicycle so i will just sit on the front porch and watch the gas guzzlers go by.

no idea about the numbers , voltages etc but here ( ontario ) they bury the cable to the sub station, it is about 5 or 6 inches in diameter after that it leaves the subs on some big arse steel towers we go lots of solar, lots of wind
bob

I am in Rosebush which is central/north isabella county. We have 168 windmills in 3 townships. Not counting the turbines in shepherd. With the 3 behind the house I could get nosy after hours. The wire is a 0 guage wire that I saw. runs underground. They generally try to wire 3 or 4 in a cluster then at a road side you see green plastic boxes that is a junction to fasten things together then move on to station. We have a sub station 1 mile away. DTE was in line to buy the power from the turbines since last spring. Then upon their inspection the substation wasnt wired to their specs and they were going to back out of the deal. Fagen said they would make the changes and all went forward as planned. There is still glitches. Currently there are a dozen or so not on line do to blowing the circut. It is hard to believe how fast they throw them things in the air. takes 72 concrete trucks to pour a base for one windmill. Mix has to be just so. They had a man here that inspected every load not sure how but he turned quite a few away. Fisher concrete in mt pleasant ran the whole plant to keep them going. Brought in a portable for the little general public asked for. Or brought it from other plants. No of few people got free concrete do to they had no where to unload at the time and be able to keep up. This isnt all you were looking for Ray but hope it helps. If you get them in your neighborhood, they are like phone poles when they were first installed. Old ones didnt want to see the blite. After a short while they didnt even notice if there where new ones up or not. Same with these. THey do make noise but not terrible. Would be more tollerable if there was free or discounted energy to land owners like when gas and oil came through in the 50s. Got couple uncles havent paid for heat in 70 yrs. Thermostat set on 75. If it gets to hot open doors and windows. No need to turn down the stat.

JDR ..... you wore me out. That might be a world's record for the longest sentence without punctuation or upper case letters except for a period at the end.

My son and I were in Gladwin, yesterday, and then to Clare at Jay's sporting goods. Then I wanted to go to Winn to inspect my parents graves at Union Cemetery. Trying to get through Shepherd was chaos with their Maple Syrup Festival. They were have ia great day.
That said, we observed the windmills along US 127 around Mount Pleasant and south and talked about them. Ugly!
Same is true in the thumb of Michigan. We go Birch Run, Fankenmuth and then up through Sebewaing and to Caseville for some of my wife's family. From M-46 to M-25, on Bradleyville Road, hundreds of windmills. Ugly!
These and solar are supposed to get rid of fossil and nuclear? Not a chance!

So windmills are ugly, but 500 Semi-Trucks a day, running bumper to bumper 75 MPH past your farm, 24/7, is beautiful. an Interesting perspective on what people accept as normal and right and wrong.

(quoted from post at 15:07:42 04/25/21) My son and I were in Gladwin, yesterday, and then to Clare at Jay's sporting goods. Then I wanted to go to Winn to inspect my parents graves at Union Cemetery. Trying to get through Shepherd was chaos with their Maple Syrup Festival. They were have ia great day.
That said, we observed the windmills along US 127 around Mount Pleasant and south and talked about them. Ugly!
Same is true in the thumb of Michigan. We go Birch Run, Fankenmuth and then up through Sebewaing and to Caseville for some of my wife's family. From M-46 to M-25, on Bradleyville Road, hundreds of windmills. Ugly!
These and solar are supposed to get rid of fossil and nuclear? Not a chance!

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John in Mich, Perhaps I mis-interpreted your post but it appears that you are saying that because wind turbines look ugly to you that they can't replace fossil fuels. I like how they look myself, so does that mean that they will replace fossil fuels? Or maybe we should get filters installed at our home's breaker panels so that we can filter out the electrons sent by wind power and use only those made by coal?

Also I could be wrong but I am pretty sure that wherever solar or wind generated electricity is entering the grid that meters are keeping track of it proving that electricity is being generated. Further every milliwatt of electricity that is generated by solar or wind is replacing current generated by coal, proving that wind and solar really are replacing coal.

Crazy Horse did you not get the first of my post I AM NOT A RHODES SCHOLAR.

These NIMBYs are the same folks who look at what happened in Texas and scoff, "They should have known this was coming and prepared for it..."

People like that do not have a lick of common sense. They think the power for their heat and AC and Internet comes from the wall outlet. No clue how it got there. Complain every month when the power bill comes in ($30 for electricity!?! That's HIGHWAY ROBBERY!!!). Complain every time the power goes out.

Relax JDR ..... you're gonna have a cardiac arrest. And STOP YELLING (using capital letters indicates that). Next time I reply tongue-in-cheek I will give you advance notice that I'm joking !!

(quoted from post at 05:33:46 04/26/21) Relax JDR ..... you're gonna have a cardiac arrest. And STOP YELLING (using capital letters indicates that). Next time I reply tongue-in-cheek I will give you advance notice that I'm joking !!

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Crazy Horse, for the sake of peace in the family perhaps an apology is in order.

(quoted from post at 07:27:48 04/25/21) Interesting post below about electrical posts/towers. Now here is a question, an electrician and I were discussing today. Neighboring counties are acquiring some rather impressive wind farms. They're meeting quite a bunch of resistance in putting them in in our county. But probably coming in the near future.

NOW, WITHOUT GETTING INTO THE POLITICS OF WIND FARMS, here is my question. How are they getting the power from the windmill towers to the substations? No visible overhead wires, so must be underground. What kind of transmission lines can they run wind mill power through? Voltages? Wire size? Frequency? (assuming 60 Hz, but not necessarily)? What depth and separation? I'm sure there is someone here that has some experience with this technology that can describe power transmission from these large windmills.

Click to expand...

The generators on the wind turbines are usually induction motors spun faster than grid frequency .
Cables are usually buried underground and are routed to a common point . Then carried on overhead lines at 13.8Kc or 27Kv.
Problem is that wind power is not reliable and always requires all of wind generation being backed up with reserve power .
This costs as now two redundant power systems are required for the same amount of power .
Wind power also fluctuates and surges which is a challenge to distribution protection and control systems . Wind power naturally has occultations in voltage , current and frequency that would be fault conditions with fossil or nuclear .
Then there are the subsidies paid to wind and solar that nuclear and fossil are not paid . This does play into the end game of nuclear haters and fossil haters . The extra $$$ paid to wind and solar along with it costing fossil and nuclear extra to keep equipment spinning at reduced output .
Costs stay about the same for nuclear and fossil but revenue is down . Particularly the daytime peak rates that nuclear and fossil used to be paid are now being hogged by wind and solar who have priority to generate .

wow periods dude

Last I checked, it was "PURSUIT of happiness/property" not a GUARANTEE of happiness/property.

When the game changes, you have to change your game. Whining and crying about how your revenues are hurt because someone else came in and changed the game is not the American way.

Seems like it's unacceptable when its NASCAR drivers whining about "not fair" but perfectly acceptable for big businesses to do it?

English was not my best subject in school and i quit in the 3rd.grade daddy was in the 4th.and i was afraid it would hurt his feelings if we were in the same class or if i passed him so if you want periods and comma's and some of them colons or semi colons just go ahead and place them where they belong.

Not sure if everything got answered here.

One says they used 0 gauge wire to run DC voltage from the tower itself buried at plow depth. Wonder if that is a single or multiple wires or is a ground needed? What type of insulation and conduit is used?

Then 3 or 4 towers are run to one substation and continue on. So I wonder what gauge wire is then run from this substation to the main substation?

At what point is the DC tower voltage converted to AC? If solid state, then they have to have some type of big SCR (silicon rectifiers) to convert I believe.

If a company is also going to sell electricity to locals, then they would have to do the conversion near the towers.

Around here most of the farmers who own ground can't wait to get the lease payments that go with the towers. The ones who get skipped over don't. Most of the Nimby's around here are the tree huggers who moved to the country on their 3 acre lot who then complain cause the farmers stir up too much dust, etc. (their complaints are endless). They tear up the roads driving on them everyday, complain about the roads, and don't want to pay their fair share of taxes for the maintenance.

(quoted from post at 07:24:07 04/27/21)
Not sure if everything got answered here.

One says they used 0 gauge wire to run DC voltage from the tower itself buried at plow depth. Wonder if that is a single or multiple wires or is a ground needed? What type of insulation and conduit is used?

Then 3 or 4 towers are run to one substation and continue on. So I wonder what gauge wire is then run from this substation to the main substation?

At what point is the DC tower voltage converted to AC? If solid state, then they have to have some type of big SCR (silicon rectifiers) to convert I believe.

If a company is also going to sell electricity to locals, then they would have to do the conversion near the towers.

Around here most of the farmers who own ground can't wait to get the lease payments that go with the towers. The ones who get skipped over don't. Most of the Nimby's around here are the tree huggers who moved to the country on their 3 acre lot who then complain cause the farmers stir up too much dust, etc. (their complaints are endless). They tear up the roads driving on them everyday, complain about the roads, and don't want to pay their fair share of taxes for the maintenance.

Click to expand...

Many landowners from around here did sign the lease, and they now have wind turbines on the land that USED to be theirs, but now belongs to the wind companies. MOST of those landowners wish they had never heard of wind turbines.

Not DC around here . 60Hz AC . Wind drives induction motors faster than synchronous speed . Which turns the induction motor into a generator .

You have to remember showcrop he is a troll, they don't know how to apologize. The wind energy is interesting. Once
they can power everything on wind that is now powered on coal for the same or less money spent I'll be convinced.