Because of city requirements during a building project. I had to burry the electric wire from the old house to the pole. One of the electricians told me I have three phase to the pole, from the street. Then it stops. The service was installed in 1960. How can I have three hot wires from the street? Doesn't do me any good. Stan
- Thread starter 37 chief
- Start date
mjsnodgrass
Member
i'd love to have your 3ph power. both my lathe and milling machines are on 3ph / 220 converters. they work ok, but seem sluggish at times it seems.
Steve@Advance
Well-known Member
There would have to be 3 transformers for you to get 3 phase, also another wire run from the pole to the shop, and a 3 phase panel installed.
You can contact the power company to find out what the cost would be on their end, if they will do it.
You can contact the power company to find out what the cost would be on their end, if they will do it.
BarnyardEngineering
Well-known Member
- Location
- Rochester, NY
How many wires are on the pole? If three you have three phase available, but like others have said you need three transformers on the pole and the appropriate wiring to get it.
If you've only got one transformer on the pole you have single phase, pulled off one of the three phases on the pole.
Unless you have a need to run motors larger than about 10HP, or are planning on starting a large machine shop and running multiple machines at once, single phase is fine.
If you've only got one transformer on the pole you have single phase, pulled off one of the three phases on the pole.
Unless you have a need to run motors larger than about 10HP, or are planning on starting a large machine shop and running multiple machines at once, single phase is fine.
Stephen Newell
Well-known Member
Apparently someone in the 1960's had some equipment that needed three phase. If it's not a problem don't fix it, the taped off wire won't hurt anything. If the day comes you need three phase you won't have to get a phase converter like the rest of us have. If you have a pump or other machine that uses a larger electric motor it would be cheaper to operate off three phase. That is why most commercial equipment is three phase.
Hdonly
Member
- Location
- Florida Panhandle
The three phase with a "stinger" is the only three phase available in my area.
WOW In my professional opinion, there may possibly be a bit of mis-understanding below, let me describe the situation as I best recall and still believe:
Three Phase (3 & 4 Wire, Delta and Y)
Wild Leg
Open Delta
or at least how it was when I was a practicing power distribution design engineer, maybe codes or practices have changed since then SO NO WARRANTY consult the NEC and current practicing electrical engineers and electricians !!!!!!
1) Three Phase can be THREE Wire Straight Delta,,or Three Phase Four Wire Wild/Red Leg Delta,, or FOUR WIRE Y.
If THREE wire, three transformers can be CONFIGURED IN STRAIGHT DELTA, Three Hots. Such as 240 or 480 Volt Three Phase Three Wire, NO Neutral
If FOUR wire, three transformers can be CONFIGURED IN Y, Three Hots and a Neutral. Such as 208Y 120 Volt Three Phase Four
Wire OR 480Y 277 Volt Three Phase Four Wire. THERE IS A NEUTRAL
2) OPEN DELTA This is a non often used method to achieve three phase power WITH ONLY TWO INSTEAD OF THREE TRANSFORMERS However it can only produce something like 58% of the power that the use of three transformers could deliver. In all my years of practice I never designed for it.......Its not called Wild Leg when and where I practiced, but I cant speak to the entire USA
3) WILD/RED Leg Three Phase Four Wire: This is similar to 1 above, however one of the three transformers has a center tapped and Grounded Neutral, and its referred to as Three Phase Four Wire (Wild/Red leg) Delta. It is often used if the majority of the power requirement is 240 Volt, Single or Three Phase, with a small amount of power needed for 120 Volt Single Phase. ONLY ONE of the three 240 Volt transformers is center tapped so its 120 Volts from either end to the center tap Neutral....... THERES A LOT OF IT OUT THERE......
BUT NOTE its called Wild or Red Leg because while two legs are 120 Volt to Neutral, the other Wild/Red leg would be 208. DONT USE THAT WILD/RED LEG for 120 Its NOT for Bubba or lay persons but okay for professionals who understand it.
NOTES
A) Wild/Red Leg is a THREE Transformer configuration (see 3 above) NOT a TWO Transformer.
B) The two transformer method to achieve Three Phase, is called OPEN DELTA, NOT Wild Leg when and where I practiced.
C) Wild/Red leg IS USED when most of the loads are 240 Single or Three Phase with a small amount of 120. HOWEVER I instructed my electricians to properly label and identify the (one of the three) Wild/Red legs so a rookie wouldnt use it for 120 volts !!!!!!!!!!
D) If available, three phase operation is preferred and in our plant any motors over 5 HP I specified Three Phase
Sooooooooooo you need at least THREE Wires for Three Phase straight DELTA. (Has NO 120) 3 Hots
you need at least FOUR Wires for Three Phase Four Wire Y (208Y 120 or 480Y 277) 3 Hots, 1 Neutral
you need at least FOUR Wires for 120/240 Volt Three Phase Four Wire Red/Wild Leg Delta 3 Hots, 1 Neutral
you need at least THREE Wires for typical household 120 240 Volt Single Phase Three Wire.
NOTE most straight Delta configurations are FLOATING non Grounded systems. However there can be corner Grounded Deltas. I preferred Grounded systems versus Floating although many were Floating in years past. Im NOT opening that can of wormss here lol
Hope this helps but no warranty as things or the NEC may have changed since I last practiced, but I believe it to still be true
Best wishes and God Bless
John T
Three Phase (3 & 4 Wire, Delta and Y)
Wild Leg
Open Delta
or at least how it was when I was a practicing power distribution design engineer, maybe codes or practices have changed since then SO NO WARRANTY consult the NEC and current practicing electrical engineers and electricians !!!!!!
1) Three Phase can be THREE Wire Straight Delta,,or Three Phase Four Wire Wild/Red Leg Delta,, or FOUR WIRE Y.
If THREE wire, three transformers can be CONFIGURED IN STRAIGHT DELTA, Three Hots. Such as 240 or 480 Volt Three Phase Three Wire, NO Neutral
If FOUR wire, three transformers can be CONFIGURED IN Y, Three Hots and a Neutral. Such as 208Y 120 Volt Three Phase Four
Wire OR 480Y 277 Volt Three Phase Four Wire. THERE IS A NEUTRAL
2) OPEN DELTA This is a non often used method to achieve three phase power WITH ONLY TWO INSTEAD OF THREE TRANSFORMERS However it can only produce something like 58% of the power that the use of three transformers could deliver. In all my years of practice I never designed for it.......Its not called Wild Leg when and where I practiced, but I cant speak to the entire USA
3) WILD/RED Leg Three Phase Four Wire: This is similar to 1 above, however one of the three transformers has a center tapped and Grounded Neutral, and its referred to as Three Phase Four Wire (Wild/Red leg) Delta. It is often used if the majority of the power requirement is 240 Volt, Single or Three Phase, with a small amount of power needed for 120 Volt Single Phase. ONLY ONE of the three 240 Volt transformers is center tapped so its 120 Volts from either end to the center tap Neutral....... THERES A LOT OF IT OUT THERE......
BUT NOTE its called Wild or Red Leg because while two legs are 120 Volt to Neutral, the other Wild/Red leg would be 208. DONT USE THAT WILD/RED LEG for 120 Its NOT for Bubba or lay persons but okay for professionals who understand it.
NOTES
A) Wild/Red Leg is a THREE Transformer configuration (see 3 above) NOT a TWO Transformer.
B) The two transformer method to achieve Three Phase, is called OPEN DELTA, NOT Wild Leg when and where I practiced.
C) Wild/Red leg IS USED when most of the loads are 240 Single or Three Phase with a small amount of 120. HOWEVER I instructed my electricians to properly label and identify the (one of the three) Wild/Red legs so a rookie wouldnt use it for 120 volts !!!!!!!!!!
D) If available, three phase operation is preferred and in our plant any motors over 5 HP I specified Three Phase
Sooooooooooo you need at least THREE Wires for Three Phase straight DELTA. (Has NO 120) 3 Hots
you need at least FOUR Wires for Three Phase Four Wire Y (208Y 120 or 480Y 277) 3 Hots, 1 Neutral
you need at least FOUR Wires for 120/240 Volt Three Phase Four Wire Red/Wild Leg Delta 3 Hots, 1 Neutral
you need at least THREE Wires for typical household 120 240 Volt Single Phase Three Wire.
NOTE most straight Delta configurations are FLOATING non Grounded systems. However there can be corner Grounded Deltas. I preferred Grounded systems versus Floating although many were Floating in years past. Im NOT opening that can of wormss here lol
Hope this helps but no warranty as things or the NEC may have changed since I last practiced, but I believe it to still be true
Best wishes and God Bless
John T
You state The three phase with a stinger is the only three phase available in my area.
That's often used Ive seen a lot of it, Ive heard it called that before. My best guess is its Three Phase Four Wire Red/Wild
Leg Delta and the Wild/Red leg is 208 and may be referred to as the STINGER Makes sense to me ...
Nice chatting with you, best wishes
John T
That's often used Ive seen a lot of it, Ive heard it called that before. My best guess is its Three Phase Four Wire Red/Wild
Leg Delta and the Wild/Red leg is 208 and may be referred to as the STINGER Makes sense to me ...
Nice chatting with you, best wishes
John T
dr sportster
Well-known Member
You need to take down the single phase panel and get a three phase panel .You are now missing one buss for 3 ph. But the panel is the only thing you need all else will work.
DoubleO7
Well-known Member
- Location
- Crystal River, FL
Are you sure he did not say or mean that there is three phase power available and running down your street???
And if you wanted three phase power to your house or shop building, it could be done.
If you can convince the power company to provide it.
Its that BOTH the two transformer Open Delta doesn't produce the power a true three transformer system would PLUS a Phase Converter is itself inefficient, but sure you can still run things that don't require full power. I have seen guys run 3 phase tools with single phase by using capacitors to cause the necessary phase shift but that's just NOT something Im into or fully understand lol
John T
John T
That was interesting, thanks. In small doses over time I start to understand things.
I know when 3-phase comes up my best response it to let my eyes glaze over and just listen, as I understand I dont understand the many configurations good enough to have a conversation. I know y one would want it for heavy use, but not y it works with regular single phase uses.
Paul
I know when 3-phase comes up my best response it to let my eyes glaze over and just listen, as I understand I dont understand the many configurations good enough to have a conversation. I know y one would want it for heavy use, but not y it works with regular single phase uses.
Paul
Paul, if a three phase three transformer arrangement is used, you could just use ONE of those transformers end to end to get single phase power....A 240 Volt three Phase straight Delta has three 240 Volt Transformers, so if a machine needed 240 Single Phase just use one transformer..
John T
John T
Thanks John. That begs the question which might be of interest to the OP. Forget the cost of the panel and wiring coming in. Which would end up with a cheaper electric bill for the OP if he stayed on single phase or if he had a 3 phase panel splitting the load among the phases assuming the same household load with either option?
As an aside, our farm is in the corner of the border lines for 3 electric companies. The little town nearby just got a back up line installed (by our farm) which is on a delta system. The next project was to run another line 3 miles to another company which is on a Wye system. Company guy said they were putting in a switch for backup use by either system but they have to de-energize/disconnect from their own power source before energizing the switch between the two.
People within a few miles of each other can be on 3 different power companies.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
While there is 7200V three phase at the road . Still have just 120/240 as the monthly service fee and power is cheaper .
Makes sense. With 3 transformers they probably have a higher service fee. After reading here about VFD's and rotary phase converters, guess I can watch the auctions for some old 3 phase equipment. Some of that big old stuff I've seen go cheap. Schools and companies getting rid of their old welders and shop equipment.
Hdonly
Member
- Location
- Florida Panhandle
Yes, 3 phase 4 wire 208 on the wild leg (stinger).
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
A lot of those old welders only use two live lines . No need for three phase . Just a transformer if the welder is 480V or 600V only .
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
All kinds of used 10, 12.5 ,15 and 20Kw single phase 480V or 600V to 120/240 transformers for office loads .
dr sportster
Well-known Member
Chief - I misspoke you need a panel and a cut of 3 phase service cable .
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