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Off grid power

jon f mn

jon f mn

Well-known Member
I've always wondered how efficient you could get with a home power plant and if you could get close to the cost of power from the grid. Many have standby generators and they work good but the cost to run is too high for regular use. And solar is still much more expensive and subject to the whims of weather. So how about a gas or diesel generator and then capture all the waste heat for other things. For instance heat your hot water with the engine coolant and heat the house with the exhaust through a heat exchanger. If you had a battery set up like with solar you could run it a few hours a day to charge the batteries and heat things and run off batteries the rest of the time. Could you get efficient enough to be cost effective?
 
Look up co-generation. It was talked about and a few tried it back in the 1970s. I think Ford 6 cyl. engines were in the subject.
Works, sort of.
1.constant noise.
2.plenty of hot water.
3.constant maintenance chores.
4.free from no wind, or night shading.
5.free from snow and monthly bills.
6.need some way to efficiently fuel it.
7.increased risk of fire or odors.

It is a neat idea, but very workey and was not cheap.
Leo
 
I think the answer to your question is "No". You would spend thousands to save hundreds off grid, especially if you live in a cold climate.
 
(quoted from post at 05:55:18 02/17/21) ...and if you could get close to the cost of power from the grid.
Click to expand...

I've been actively interested in this topic since the 80's, and I seriously doubt you can get very close to the cost of grid power - at least in the central states where I've lived. They generate in bulk, so it's really tough trying to get the actual per-KW cost down. This would include not only initial investment and any type of fuel source (if needed), but also for the time involved in running/maintaining such a powerplant.

About the only way I can think of offhand is if you had access to your own private water source so you could run a hydro system. So far that's about it.

The other thing to figure in here is the size of your system. While not normally figured into the overall cost-per-KW, seems something should also be mentioned about the space that an off-grid system would take up, as that's less of your real estate that you have available for other things.

But sure is a fun topic!!
 
Id like to have off grid power for my cows on the summer range but it just doesnt pencil out . Power costs my 12$ a month
 
jon, as an electrical engineer and one who uses solar and gensets to power up his RV for full time living, I'm very interested in this subject and have studied and pondered about it a lot. As far as domestic solar the efficiency, initial cost, and any ?? actual cost savings or payback (if ever or any) depends on if your utility allows Grid Tie or you use battery energy storage (or if you even have a grid available ) or not ??? There are several self contained (uses battery energy storage and Inverters) units near me MOSTLY in the Amish community maybe 5000 or so watts subject to what their Bishop permits. If I had a home unit Id use ground mount versus roof solar to make sweeping off the snow possible......... Also Lithium Iron Phosphate and other battery technology, although very pricey initially, is improving the use of solar

NOTE as far as pure economics any PAYBACK may or may not ever come about ???? (Lots of variables and unknowns like sun and wind and installation costs and utility cost etc etc) HOWEVER its still a persons free choice REGARDLESS if anyone here likes or chooses it or not and regardless of economics, Solar and Wind and Off Grid is NOT for everyone.

Your desire to use the otherwise wasted heat energy of generators etc for home or water heating is certainly "feasible" with air to air heat exchangers HOWEVER the cost and efficiency and payback are in question.

This is one of those topics with several different and opposing opinions ITS NOT FOR EVERYONE but I enjoy it and of course to each their own free choices if they like solar and gensets or backup OR THEY HATE IT and again REGARDLESS if it suits anyones economic or payback criteria HEAT HOWEVER YALL PLEASE make your choices and let others make theirs. I wont argue against your decisions and expect the same respect in return

I came across this Prager University video regarding Solar and found it "INTERESTING". Im NOT saying its right or wrong, yes or no, ONLY "interesting", if you have an issue with it take it up with the author its HIS work certainly not mine

https://www.prageru.com/video/whats-wrong-with-wind-and-solar/?utm_source=Main+Mailing+List&utm_campaign=50f21f798c-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_04_09_06_29_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_f90832343d-50f21f798c-158939345

Best wishes yall keep safe n warm

Very very fun and interesting topic yayyyyyyyyy hope to read different opinions thanks for starting it

John T God (the one in charge, not politicians lol) Bless America, keep her free strong and great
Solar Video
 
Our Worthless State law makers are working at BANNING all solar that are hooked to homes,, they are still thinking on the same for water wells,, ya know like the ones some use to water their livestock? they also in the same breath spoke of the up to 400% rate increases they are planning for the city electric divisions,,, sounds fair and correct right? not to me,,
 
It can work if you are in a high electric cost area. The heat becomes the main economic driver and the electricity is the extra bonus.

Economically, you always start with reducing consumption. Then look at replacing supply.

Jon, I am west of you in ND, electric is still cheap enough here that even conservation doesn't save any money.

FWIW, where I grew up in Maine, quite a few mid size power users had co generation systems. Sawmills, dairys,hospitals... Most were diesel, one hospital had a gas turbine set up.
 
Only way it will work out is if you have free gas from a gas well. Went to a place in north east Ohio. He had a large generator powered from free gas from his own wells. He had the engine in the shop so he could use the heat off of it and in the summer he diverted it outside. He also ran his own overhead transmission lines to a couple of houses and powered them.
 
If small power plants could be almost as efficient as big plants, there would be no big plants. After all, the cost of transmitting power over long distances is enormous.

You're not going to recover much waste heat. For example, if you have baseboard hydronic heat, those systems typically run at 175°F. If your liquid-cooled generator engine is running at 200° you won't have enough delta to transfer much heat.

An efficiency problem with small generators is they are most efficient under almost full load, but most of the time they aren't putting out much power. Inverter generators are better in this regard, but still can't match the efficiency of a large plant operating under load. Yes, battery storage is better, but if you're going to invest in big battery banks you might as well go 100 percent solar.
 
Used to follow that stuff back in the 1970s oil crisis. Was a lot of interest in refurbishing old 1930s wind generators, solar heating, setting up engines as you mention for both heat and power generation. Even some home made hydro water wheels and all.

Was a real fun, backyard mechanic vibe to it all.

Different world now a days.

Paul
 
And its only going to get worse with transplants coming in that are more noxious than a patch of morning glory in an organic barley field
 
Yes SV, that's what transplants (Californians) did to my state. Turned it into the backwards abundant paradise it is today. I hope it doesn't happen to yours. However, I have personally heard alot of Oregonians say they want to move to Idaho to escape our crazy government.
 
This was several years ago.

The cost for a municipality to purchase power was about 4 center per KW, the cost for fuel to generate was about 12 cents, so 2.5x. That did not include the capital cost of the equipment or repairs. Off grid power using fossil fuels is actually much more expensive than other sources when you run the numbers. I do not know what will happen if fuel cell technology takes off.
 
Great subject! A friend has installed solar panels in south Alabama and is pretty well self-sufficient. He is using batteries to store his overage and can run his house on them for about 24 hours. He has no market for his overage, electric coop does not buy electricity from customers, he gives it back.(I understand some elec. companies do buy overage) He has done all the engineering and installation himself, but says he will never see a break even or even close. But that is not his point, he wants to be self-sufficient for when the excrement hits the fan. And, with Joe in the white house, that may not be far off! His biggest fear is a tornado destroying his solar field.

I think hydro might work, we have a year around spring 500 feet above us, 3/4 mile of water line and a way to keep it from freezing and a hydro motor to run a generator. A valve to divert the water when your demand was down. I'm dreaming again!
 
"He has done all the engineering and installation himself, but says he will never see a break even or even close. But that is not his point, he wants to be self-sufficient for when the excrement hits the fan"

GOOD FOR HIM just as I pointed out below ITS A PERSONS OWN CHOICE (not ours) FOR WHATEVER REASON HE HAS, GOOD OR BAD. Its NOT for everybody lol For my extreme small (as compared to a huge home) RV purposes its great (self sufficient same as him) and Id never look back

God Bless America where we for now at least have free choices and opinions

John T
 
A friend of mine put in a geothermal system along with solar panels, heats his home and shop with it. Sells power back to the power company. Told me he should have done it ten years ago. Not completely off grid it's helping.
 
Power company sell you electricity at retail and pays you wholesale in Indiana. People said it was a mistake thinking they would make money.

I'm going to wait for a flux capacitor used in Back to the future to store electricity.
 
Yes we were running out of oil yet another lie we were told back then.makes you doubt anything the government tells you now.
 
And I thought I might move to Wyoming . Some politicians probably have an economic interest in controlling all solar power . The sun is the last thing to tax. Same everywhere just some are worse than others.
 
John,
Like you have said in the past, It's your money. Do what you want.

I like having my cake and eating it too.

Recently I've put $30k in AT&T stock. The dividends will more than pay for my annual electric bill and I'll still have my money.

Better than getting almost nothing leaving money in Pass book Savings.

Indiana is the land of Taxes. Do they tax solar panels and windmills?

What about insurance?

Are there other hidden costs?
George
 
It still is a Good place to live,, unless you are thinking of Laramie or Jackson Hole,, we do have a group rising up to help get rid of the trash in Cheyenne,, they found out a couple days ago what we here thought of the 9 cents a mile tax they were thinking of passing,,
 

When I was a kid, my dad got so envious of a "progressive" neighbor's 32 volt plant that he went and bought one for our farm. These systems were probably first used in resorts and migrated northward as the commercial power lines were built. Before that we used gasoline mantle lanterns. Some people used kerosene lanterns and the common lamps. There were a few Aladdin lamps around and they were impressive. We had a gas-engine powered washing machine and a gas-fired clothes iron. Flashlight batteries were a big consumable. Our radio was powered by dry-cell batteries, and so was the wall telephone.
The new plant was put in the cellar, along with a double set of big glass batteries. The heat from the engine may have helped keep the potatoes and carrots from freezing. It didn't run continuously. I'd go down and press the start button, and sometimes switched the banks of batteries. When fully charged, it shut itself off. In addition, we had a tower with a generator on top that ran most of the time. We had two bare bulbs in the kitchen/dining room, but the other rooms had only a single bulb. The barn had a single bulb in the hayloft.
It was a matter of pride for us all. When we moved off a few years later, someone grabbed the system and moved it further North into a more remote area.
 
Ten or so years ago Hyperion and Toshiba announced backyard (home) nuclear power. The units were totally safe and needed recharged every 10 years. Just stick it in the ground and you had electricity and hot water. Big money didn't want the competition and people are afraid of nuclear. I want one though.
 
Hey neighbor, not sure of hidden costs, insurance (for what ??) or taxes, I think there may be tax credits available. I haven't researched it as far as large scale home use just use it in my RV and to each their own regardless... I think the way the govt is spending money the stock market may be in a bubble which may burst Hope not......My portfolio is well diversified so Im making some money with not "too much" ? risk. I have some in bonds, bond funds, conservative Mutual Funds, some stocks, some precious metals.. Im quite satisfied in my old age and fortunately don't have to rely on or use any of it for regular income and living expenses. There may be a FEW advantages of being old lol but not many. We can have our cake and eat it too right??

Take care George

John T
 
(quoted from post at 11:50:58 02/17/21) Ten or so years ago Hyperion and Toshiba announced backyard (home) nuclear power. The units were totally safe and needed recharged every 10 years. Just stick it in the ground and you had electricity and hot water. Big money didn't want the competition and people are afraid of nuclear. I want one though.
Click to expand...

Horse Feathers
 
(quoted from post at 05:55:18 02/17/21) I've always wondered how efficient you could get with a home power plant and if you could get close to the cost of power from the grid. Many have standby generators and they work good but the cost to run is too high for regular use. And solar is still much more expensive and subject to the whims of weather. So how about a gas or diesel generator and then capture all the waste heat for other things. For instance heat your hot water with the engine coolant and heat the house with the exhaust through a heat exchanger. If you had a battery set up like with solar you could run it a few hours a day to charge the batteries and heat things and run off batteries the rest of the time. Could you get efficient enough to be cost effective?
Click to expand...

There are farms where they collect methane from manure to power a generator. One of the problems with the methane is two much moisture causing problems in the engine. An added dryer might resolve that problem.
 
A few years ago when ethanol was a new idea a guy figured he would use his still to make cheap fuel.. The cost of the fuels was $8-9 per gallon. Not a bad price for drinking.. not so much for burning... The still was inactive when the cops found it...
 

The only practical home system where there is a connection to the utility grid . Is to use solar panels and a grid tie inverter . To elementary demand from the utility during the peak daytime rates .
Forget about batteries and trying to store if nighttime use . Unless the system is at a remote off grid camp .
 
I agree with B&D, the numbers just don't give a payback.

Everyone complains about electric bill, just look at what it costs to have your own.
 
Back in eastern Kentucky. just about all farms have Natural Gas wells on them. Some have generators that run on NG to power the entire farm. Others, buy NG powered appliances like the Amish use.

Funny....It freaks out first time visitors when they see a huge flame burning from the end of a standing pipe in the front yard. It's the well vent pipe, they burn 24/7.
 
not all Methane has H2s, we never scrubbed it off here, but you dang sure had to wear monitors when working around a well with it, a few oil well fields south of me have it also, not fun stuff we had a huge methane boom here I worked in the field from installing substructure to maintaining and operating wells, it is corrosive, some wells are worse than others,
 
Great, what a fun thread with different opinions, information and choices, no right or wrong answers, no political fights or POOF lol. For those who desire self sufficiency if the grid goes down or those totally off grid like some Amish or in remote areas, Solar as well as other alternative energy is a growing field and looks like its here to stay. I prefer a well reasoned well engineered diversified and balanced approach (NOT only political) which may include different energy forms be it coal or oil or gas or solar or wind or tidal or hydro electric or even nuclear NOT having all ones eggs in a single basket and having BACK UP availability in case the primaries go down. I love having choices and options and the right to choose be it solely for economic reasons or the peace of mind of being self sufficient if the grid were to go down and that's worth a lot in many peoples minds.

Yall keep safe n warm and exercise whatever energy choices suit you and your budget (thats what I do) there are plenty out there.

God Bless the good old US of A and remember HE is in charge NOT politicians lol

John T
 
Another NG funny.....A local lake, Yatesville Lake, was built in the 1970's. The state bought/took thousands of acres of land to form the lake.

When out on the lake in a boat, you'll come across a place where it looks like the water is boiling. These are old gas wells that they either missed to plug or well pipe that has rusted through and leaking.
 
I remember reading in the late 70's & 80's about co-generation plants set up in high rise buildings. Several big engines in the basement making electricity. Electricity generation cost more than power from the grid, but heat from the jacket water and exhaust is where the benefits were. Internal combustion engines are thermally very inefficient. Something like 20-30% of the energy from the fuel burned actually makes useable rotative power. The rest is lost in heat. Haven't heard of that sort of thing going on these days, so I guess it didn't pan out.

I know of big commercial ships that have exhaust heat exchangers on the main engines to generate steam, which drives turbine generators once out to sea, and some/all of their diesel gen sets can be shut down till they get back to port. There is a benefit there, because they avoid running a diesel engine during this time.

Running a internal combustion engine for a generator, 24-7, will put 8,640 hours on an engine. Engine rebuilds and oil changes need to be factored in.

I had a friend get ------ off at the power company and decided to power his house with his portable generator. That only lasted a couple weeks, when the amount of gas he was going thru, and the fact he couldn't run all the things in the house at one time, cost more than his power bills.

People poo-poo big power plants for their effect on the environment. These are big companies who have invested in all sorts of systems to make their power plants run as cleanly and efficiently as possible. I can't imagine if everyone in our neighborhood had a generator thumping along. Some would be running well. Others, lacking skills or funds for maintenance, would be that much dirtier.

If your lives could be get by without your 600 watt flat screen TV, extra large fridge & freezer, the need to keep the house at 70F year around, lighting a huge house with dozens of light bulbs, shop power tools, water pumps, sump pumps, hot water, well, then a small generating system could be effectively run your house from solar or wind, and some batteries, but the size of a system to maintain the lifestyle you currently have, will have a lot of up front cost.

Tough as it is, pay your power bill. If it is too high for your desires, figure out ways to use less.

Interesting topic.......
 

Don't know much about solar other than the benefit doesn't seam to justify the cost.
As for generators one on NG with your own well would be the only one that might operate as cheap as grid electric. We have a diesel backup genset for our poultry barns and a small 4500 watt generator to power basics at the house "no heat".
During the 2009 ice storm we had here in Ky the generators ran for 10 days, at 24% load running ventilation fans and lights the poultry house genset burned 360 gallons of diesel, the average winter electric bill is around $450 per month, summer months powering cooling fans the cost is 3 time more but the genset would be operating at higher load burning more fuel.
The 4500 watt generator at the house powering lights, fridge, water pump, tv burnt 10/12 gallons of gas per day, winter electric bill for the house is $275/300 per month with electric heat that the generator was big enough to power.
It basically worked out that we burnt enough fuel in 10 days to equal 1 months utility bills for our area.
 
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