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Free energy, let's go for 3?

Gary Mitchell

Gary Mitchell

Well-known Member
My idea is to engineer a mechanism that would use excess energy that our solar system makes during the day, to drive an electric engine that would gradually raise a heavy wright into the air, (with-in a framework, perhaps a 500 gallon water tank). When the load reaches a maximum height it would stop and maintain it's position until it got dark enough for the need for juice in our house to trigger the process to reverse the energy flow back into the home system as electricity. I don't have enough knowledge of electricity or electric gizmos to actually do this but I have the feeling this would work, to what degree of efficiency I have no good guess. "Anyone? Beuller?
 
It would be very likely not to work since it takes more in then you get out. Now if you dug a big pond on top of a hill and used solar power to pump water into the pond and then used a turbine to give you power at night it might work but you would have to have enough solar cells to power the house and also pump the water so it would take a lot of cells to do it
 
In our area we feed the excess energy into the power grid, and remove it when needed.
BC parks had a wonderful arrangement for summer use. A spring of water high on the hills fed a 2 inch plastic water pipe into a sluice box on the back of the building which spun a turbine which in turn powered two 12 volt alternators. They charged a bank of batteries which fed an inverter which in turn provided enough power for a 1400 sq. ft house. Ran everything except a stove, which was propane.
 
What you're suggesting is essentially what's done commercially in "pumped hydro storage" using conventionally-generated electricity. During those times that the demand for electricity is less than conventional powerplants can provide, the unneeded generating capacity is used to generate electricity to power turbine pumps that raise water from a low-altitude source to a high-altitude reservoir. Then, when electrical demand is greater than the conventional generating capacity, the high-altitude water is released, through the same pipes, to run the same turbine pumps as turbine generators.

The power generated by pumped hydro storage is necessarily less than that used to raise the water, but buffers the peaks and valleys of electrical demand.

I suspect that any home-scale electrical generation capacity / demand buffering system other than battery storage would be both safer and more efficient if it raised and released water rather than mechanical weights.
 
Lift a weight, pump water into higher storage, charge a chemical battery, all are ‘batteries’ that store potential energy.

Figure out a way of storage that is more efficient (and affordable with materials we can obtain) than current ideas and you will be a rich person.

Paul
 
(quoted from post at 14:20:09 12/19/20) In our area we feed the excess energy into the power grid, and remove it when needed.
BC parks had a wonderful arrangement for summer use. A spring of water high on the hills fed a 2 inch plastic water pipe into a sluice box on the back of the building which spun a turbine which in turn powered two 12 volt alternators. They charged a bank of batteries which fed an inverter which in turn provided enough power for a 1400 sq. ft house. Ran everything except a stove, which was propane.
Click to expand...
t depends on your usage as to whether a couple of alternators, batteries & inverter can run a home or not. I suppose anything can be scaled up or down, but just to run air conditioning in homes in my area can require as much as 20kW or 70-80A......big batteries & inverter(s).
 
I have a question -- suppose you have a long underground cable hooked to 110 volts. There is a voltage drop at the far end. When there is no load on the cable does it still drain current from the supply because of resistance?
 
(quoted from post at 15:01:55 12/19/20) I have a question -- suppose you have a long underground cable hooked to 110 volts. There is a voltage drop at the far end. When there is no load on the cable does it still drain current from the supply because of resistance?
Click to expand...
=IR, hence, no current, no voltage drop.
 

Build a Stirling engine, pump water up to tank during sunny days
Dump stored water through line to Pelton wheel controlled charging device during nighttime hours.

Figure out a way to keep a 12v altenator spinning 24/7 ???
 
(quoted from post at 12:51:07 12/19/20) We need to harness the power of the tide moving in and out. It is constant and has miles and miles of stored energy.
Click to expand...

Hydro is actually the most cost effective method.
 

Reason why it is not done is because it is not worthwhile .
4165 lbs of water , maybe 835lbs of tank and framework for a 5000lb nice round number .
Raise that weight 20 feet.
100,000 ft lbs of potential energy.
1HP = 33,000lbs over 1 foot in one minute.
3.03 HP of energy for 20 minutes or 1HP for 1 hour.
746watts per HP.
That whole 5000lbs rig if it was 100% efficient would barely run a typical residence for an hour at night while you sleep.
Real world efficiency would be approx 66% .
Better off to find a wrecked electric vehicle and obtain 40 kwh of lithium batteries . No moving parts and it would provide 2 or 3 Kwh of power during the daytime peak electrical rate and charge at night during the lowest electrical rate .
Still does not break even unless you reside in an area with frequent blackouts or crazy priced power . Such as Hawaii, Ontario or most of Europe.
 
comfortking,

I was stationed in Maine in the Navy back in the 1960s. There was a big project going on in the next Canadian province over called the Passamaquady (or something like that) that was specifically doing what you are suggesting. The tide would rise high in the Passamaquady (or something like that). The tide waters would be trapped and then released to turn a turbine generator. I have no idea how it all worked out in the end, and I don't know if they are still trying to capture the tide water, but it seemed like a real good idea to me.

Since I have no idea how to spell Passamaquady, I probably can't Google it, but I'm going to try to find out.

Tom in TN
 
No. when there is no current flow (everything on the far end turned off) there is no voltage drop. Putting a good meter on the 2 conductors, would show the same voltage as found on the supply to the cable. If you load the circuit with a 1200 watt heater, or an electric motor, you would see the reduced voltage from the resistance in the wire. Here is an example: If a gasoline engine tractor with 12v system and a ballast resistor to modify the voltage to the ignition circuit is checked for voltage (key on, points open) the voltage will show 12.6 volts every where in the circuit. No load no drop. If you used a headlight to check if there was voltage, it would be dim because it would load the circuit. Jim
 
(quoted from post at 15:51:07 12/19/20) We need to harness the power of the tide moving in and out. It is constant and has miles and miles of stored energy.
Click to expand...
ied movement has been done & in use in some part of the world. Enough searching & you can find it.
 
Tide power can work, but has the environmental issues of changing the duration and speed of lowering that affects the captured bay/impound.
Further, it changes marine life access or egress to those areas. Pretty expensive, and not near population centers that need the power. Jim
 
(quoted from post at 14:42:00 12/19/20)
Reason why it is not done is because it is not worthwhile .
4165 lbs of water , maybe 835lbs of tank and framework for a 5000lb nice round number .
Raise that weight 20 feet.
100,000 ft lbs of potential energy.
1HP = 33,000lbs over 1 foot in one minute.
3.03 HP of energy for 20 minutes or 1HP for 1 hour.
746watts per HP.
That whole 5000lbs rig if it was 100% efficient would barely run a typical residence for an hour at night while you sleep.
Real world efficiency would be approx 66% .
Better off to find a wrecked electric vehicle and obtain 40 kwh of lithium batteries . No moving parts and it would provide 2 or 3 Kwh of power during the daytime peak electrical rate and charge at night during the lowest electrical rate .
Still does not break even unless you reside in an area with frequent blackouts or crazy priced power . Such as Hawaii, Ontario or most of Europe.
Click to expand...

I believe his question was a joke as was my answer in a sense.
You are correct it would be ncredibly stupid to think you could pump water up a hill and release in a head pressure type application with any cost effective benefit.

Stirling engines are neat. I bought a kit years ago and used a magnifying type ignitor. Just to play with.

Hydro, if you have the constant flow/pressure is a great option.

Solar panels and wind are self explanatory.

I
 
It will only work if you hold your mouth just rite while standing on one leg and flap your arms like a chicken while humming God Bless America.
 
B & D, I believe you are very knowledgeable. I think you could
design a ZTR lawn mower that utilizes an engine that powers
electric motor powered spindles and drive motors, similar to
locomotives.
I think this would be more efficient and quieter.
???????
 

Comes down to cost,
weight and reliability .
Have to get into the size and scale of large dozer , off road trucks , locomotive and marine propulsion to make electric practical .
 

Google "Gravity Light". There is a light intended for use in reading etc., in countries without power of any kind. You put sand or rocks in a bag then lift it up - as the weight falls it drives a generator.

As has been posted the energy is small unless you really scaled up the weight. A scaled up version to supply a useful amount of energy storage/return would be costly to construct. These type systems have been built using water as the working medium. The surplus energy is used to pump the water to an elevated lake etc. For energy recovery the water is then allowed to drain back to ground level. As the water drains it runs through water turbine driving a generator to make electrical power. Again a system of useful size would be costly to fabricate.
 
World wide there are Hydro energy storage systems in place, one is in Michigan using lake Michigan water. Using off peak power it does pencil
out. Jim
reality
 
(quoted from post at 18:13:57 12/19/20)
Comes down to cost,
weight and reliability .
Have to get into the size and scale of large dozer , off road trucks , locomotive and marine propulsion to make electric practical .
Click to expand...

BINGO..Cost effective.. Pretty much sums it up.
 


Thanks Janicholson. I remember reading about these pumped storage systems many years ago, but I couldn't recall what they were called. The whole concept makes no sense until you think about the HUGE amounts of excess generating capacity that the utilities have in order to satisfy peak demand. As the article pointed out they are not as cost effective right now as they were due to the economy of natural gas, but that will of course change some time in the future.
 
> B & D, I believe you are very knowledgeable. I think you could design a ZTR lawn mower that utilizes an engine that powers electric motor powered spindles and drive motors, similar to locomotives.

The reason locomotives and very large earthmoving machines use diesel-electric drive is the need for very high starting torque, beyond what is practical with mechanical or torque converter drivetrains. Yes, you could build a mower with an electric drivetrain, but it wouldn't have any real advantage over a conventional mower.
 
I was stationed at the Presidio in CA. Tide runs something like 15 miles per hour under the Golden Gate. I can envision some kind of turbine to make electricity. However, we are back to storing it. Got to develop more efficient, safer and cheaper batteries.
 
(quoted from post at 07:58:44 12/20/20) I was stationed at the Presidio in CA. Tide runs something like 15 miles per hour under the Golden Gate. I can envision some kind of turbine to make electricity. However, we are back to storing it. Got to develop more efficient, safer and cheaper batteries.
Click to expand...


Research TESLA. They bought out solar city years ago.
Their battery technology is amazing. In due time.
 
(quoted from post at 14:09:25 12/19/20)
(quoted from post at 15:01:55 12/19/20) I have a question -- suppose you have a long underground cable hooked to 110 volts. There is a voltage drop at the far end. When there is no load on the cable does it still drain current from the supply because of resistance?
Click to expand...
=IR, hence, no current, no voltage drop.
Click to expand...

yes and no.. initially....... there will be a tiny current as the charges are equalized in the long cable vrs the source... and electrons are moved... then as it equalizes,, there will no current.


Even the act of putting a volt meter on it will allow a tiny, tiny current to flow through the meter windings or the meter will not move. (ok, its a high impedance simiconductor and a digital meter, but its not infinity so yes it draws a very small current)

But since these current are very very small, we tend to ignore them based on the "times 10 factor of error".
 
I have worked at a pumped storage facility in Western MA that was designed to use the excess electrical capacity of the utility owned nuclear plant. At night when the electrical demand is lower, they would use the excess power themselves to pump the river water to an upper reservoir. This water can be released and within 10 seconds the 330 MW generator can be on-line. And there are two of them. The whole process uses more electricity than it generates, but when the MW hour cost spikes high, money is made. The nuclear plant is long closed and electricity costs are more stable (no more $3000 MW hour payouts) but these units now function as large peakers.
 

Tidal has been attempted in the Bay of Fundy which has higher tides .
Problem is the power of the water keeps tearing the turbines and generators apart .
 
(quoted from post at 12:46:57 12/19/20) My idea is to engineer a mechanism that would use excess energy that our solar system makes during the day, to drive an electric engine that would gradually raise a heavy wright into the air, (with-in a framework, perhaps a 500 gallon water tank). When the load reaches a maximum height it would stop and maintain it's position until it got dark enough for the need for juice in our house to trigger the process to reverse the energy flow back into the home system as electricity. I don't have enough knowledge of electricity or electric gizmos to actually do this but I have the feeling this would work, to what degree of efficiency I have no good guess. "Anyone? Beuller?
Click to expand...

That has nothing to do with "free" energy at all. You are just trying to store energy for later use. Whoever invented the battery beat you to it.
 
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