With all the pipelines crisscrossing this country,why couldn’t one be built to supply water to places out west in short supply?we have an abundance of water(flooding) in our large mid-country rivers usually in the spring.was this ever proposed?it can’t be that complicated
- Thread starter rrman61
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coonie minnie
Well-known Member
It's been discussed. Tapping the Great Lakes has been evaluated. Here's the deal... nobody wants to give up their water. In the case of the Great Lakes, there is a Great Lakes compact, that all the states with access to them have to agree to diversions.
Waukesha, WI was evaluating tapping Lake Michigan for water, as wells in Waukesha are deep, needing to go deeper, and have radon. Waukesha, only 30 miles from the lake, would discharge across the "subcontinental" divide, meaning that cleaned waste water wouldn't return to Lake Michigan but down the Mississippi made it very controversial.
To be honest, I'm not sure what the status of the project is now, but it was a big deal, and that was only going 30 miles.
Waukesha, WI was evaluating tapping Lake Michigan for water, as wells in Waukesha are deep, needing to go deeper, and have radon. Waukesha, only 30 miles from the lake, would discharge across the "subcontinental" divide, meaning that cleaned waste water wouldn't return to Lake Michigan but down the Mississippi made it very controversial.
To be honest, I'm not sure what the status of the project is now, but it was a big deal, and that was only going 30 miles.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
Because nobody is going to pay the cost of pumping water three thousand feet uphill to get it from the Mississippi River up to the High Plains.
Bingo! The cost would be astronomical. What I wonder is why places that need water don't have every single gully, canyon and depression damed up so the water they do get sinks into the ground? Instead, you people in those areas trying to get what dams there are torn out!
About a decade ago T. Boone Pickens was looking into making a fortune selling water.
Oil and natural gas are much higher value commodities than water. You may find it is easier and cheaper to relocate businesses and people to were the resources are than to pump water over the continental divide.
Oil and natural gas are much higher value commodities than water. You may find it is easier and cheaper to relocate businesses and people to were the resources are than to pump water over the continental divide.
They have tremendous potential storage capacity already in the Rockies, and vast irrigation networks, mostly paid for through our tax dollars in the bureau of reclamation. For far less than the cost of a pipeline (or lines as you're fighting gravity and friction loss the whole way more dams and canals could be built. But, politically that's not practical. There's also deep water much closer.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
> What I wonder is why places that need water don't have every single gully, canyon and depression damed up so the water they do get sinks into the ground? Instead, you people in those areas trying to get what dams there are torn out!
Most of the time there's not enough water to fill the existing reservoir capacity. For most of the past couple of decades, Lake McConaughy in Nebraska has been well below capacity. Bonny Reservoir in eastern Colorado had to be drained in order to supply Kansas with its share of the nnalert River.
Most of the time there's not enough water to fill the existing reservoir capacity. For most of the past couple of decades, Lake McConaughy in Nebraska has been well below capacity. Bonny Reservoir in eastern Colorado had to be drained in order to supply Kansas with its share of the nnalert River.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
> What I wonder is why places that need water don't have every single gully, canyon and depression damed up so the water they do get sinks into the ground? Instead, you people in those areas trying to get what dams there are torn out!
Hmm. My first try at replying to Bret got blocked, probably because I mentioned a river with a dirty name. I'll try again.
In most years, there's not enough water to fill the existing reservoir capacity. For most of the past couple of decades, Lake McConaughy in Nebraska has been way below capacity. And Colorado had to drain Bonny Reservoir in order to supply Kansas and Nebraska with their shares of the [expletive deleted] River.
Hmm. My first try at replying to Bret got blocked, probably because I mentioned a river with a dirty name. I'll try again.
In most years, there's not enough water to fill the existing reservoir capacity. For most of the past couple of decades, Lake McConaughy in Nebraska has been way below capacity. And Colorado had to drain Bonny Reservoir in order to supply Kansas and Nebraska with their shares of the [expletive deleted] River.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
> There are pipelines, just not that long.
You will find very few aquaducts where water is pumped uphill. Almost all are gravity-fed, and in the rare cases where pumps are used, it's usually when tunneling isn't practical. The California Aqueduct uses pumps to get water over the Tehachapi Mountains, where they consume over half a gigawatt of electrical power. Water is also pumped through the Adams Tunnel on the Colorado-Big Thompson Project, but more power is generated on the east side of the project than is used by the pumps on the west side.
> I think desalination is a better solution for the coastal areas, leave the water in the mountains.
Water has to get very expensive before desalinization makes sense, certainly far more than agriculture is willing to pay. It's also environmentally unfriendly, consuming a lot of electricity and raising the ocean salinity near the plant. California has a few desalinization plants on its coast, one of the few areas in the US where it makes sense.
You will find very few aquaducts where water is pumped uphill. Almost all are gravity-fed, and in the rare cases where pumps are used, it's usually when tunneling isn't practical. The California Aqueduct uses pumps to get water over the Tehachapi Mountains, where they consume over half a gigawatt of electrical power. Water is also pumped through the Adams Tunnel on the Colorado-Big Thompson Project, but more power is generated on the east side of the project than is used by the pumps on the west side.
> I think desalination is a better solution for the coastal areas, leave the water in the mountains.
Water has to get very expensive before desalinization makes sense, certainly far more than agriculture is willing to pay. It's also environmentally unfriendly, consuming a lot of electricity and raising the ocean salinity near the plant. California has a few desalinization plants on its coast, one of the few areas in the US where it makes sense.
DeltaSteve
Member
We have "tremendous storage" here in the rockys. That is only if we get adequet snowfall. This year,and in recent years past,the snow hasn't come.
DeltaSteve
Member
Let alone 12,000 ft to the top of the Rockys
Russ from MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Bemidji MN
It's already being done in areas where practical, in SW MN water is being piped for long distances, some even from SD. The Fargo ND has hinted they would like a pipeline from The Lake of The Woods MN, but I doubt if that ever happens. Wells for commercial use are being drilled deeper, causing residential wells to go dry in many areas.
Traditional Farmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- Virginia
Big question I have is why do people move to arid regions and then try to live like people live in places with plenty of water? Like farms in desert areas of California,there are millions of acres of Pine land in SE USA that would work very well for farming,most of it was farmed at one time.
DeltaSteve
Member
Woah Bret!We who live and farm here are in favor of more storage. However,It's the abundant 'greenies' who are against it. Also California and the front range cities have claims on
that wter,and more money .Water law is very complicated.If you look at some of the rivers,you will find they are low,or even dry because all of the water is captured and used. The
Colorado at the mexican border,the Heuerefano east of Pueblo,the Platte east of Denver. the list goes n... There is simply not enough water to go around.The big cities and big money
will get the water,and (as usual) the farmer/rancher will get screwed. Look at the Owens River Valley in California, The south Platte in South Park Colorado The list goes
on....Oh,we'd build the dams and reservoirs if the 'powers that be' would let us. Like the Cactus park reservoir project above Cedaredge Co. It would have provided several thousand
acre ft of water.
that wter,and more money .Water law is very complicated.If you look at some of the rivers,you will find they are low,or even dry because all of the water is captured and used. The
Colorado at the mexican border,the Heuerefano east of Pueblo,the Platte east of Denver. the list goes n... There is simply not enough water to go around.The big cities and big money
will get the water,and (as usual) the farmer/rancher will get screwed. Look at the Owens River Valley in California, The south Platte in South Park Colorado The list goes
on....Oh,we'd build the dams and reservoirs if the 'powers that be' would let us. Like the Cactus park reservoir project above Cedaredge Co. It would have provided several thousand
acre ft of water.
DeltaSteve
Member
What a concept. Pump all the excess water from the flooded lowlands through a series of to the high(12000+ ft) mountains,dump into the rivers and streams to replenish the lakes/reservoirs that are (going) dry because of a prolonged drought.Then pipe some of it it across the continental divide into California.
DeltaSteve
Member
The state of Kansas sued The state of Colorado to drain JohnMartin Reservoir on the Arkansas river in eastern Colorado. Then they blasted the dam. Kansas wanted more water....
This has been talked about before , who would pay for this ? I am in NW Kansas where it is very dry, water would have to be pumped over 400 miles to an elevation of over 4000 feet, the pipe would have to be 8 to 12 feet in diameter, how many huge pumps would be needed along the way? Hundreds of roads would have to be crossed as well as other buried utility lines and pipes,Thousand of properties would be involved, and if by some miracle this did happen, who gets the water ? and where will it be stored? lakes and ponds would have to be dug and how does the water get to each farm and how do they pay for it? Also if this is river water there is another problem , it is dirty , why contaminate farm land with filthy water when farmers are using too many chemicals now?
1948CaseVAI
Well-known Member
No one is going to pay for that.
kcm.MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- NW Minnesota
The one and only time I was ever in California (LA area), there was an active water-use ban on. NO watering lawns! NO washing cars! Yet everywhere I went, guess what I saw?
Crazy Horse
Well-known Member
Steve ..... since you replied a half dozen times to this post, I figure you must have a lot of answers, and it seems that you do. Then I see you are blaming it (to some extent)on the "greenies" and I start laughing. Just over 5 weeks and you're still in disbelief ...... LOL !!!
Brendon-KS
Well-known Member
- Location
- Goessel, KS
Blasted the dam? Last I knew it was still there doing what it's always done.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
> The state of Kansas sued The state of Colorado to drain JohnMartin Reservoir on the Arkansas river in eastern Colorado.
The problem is that ALL the western rivers are overallocated. If Colorado takes out its "share", the states downstream get shorted out of water that never existed in the first place.
The problem is that ALL the western rivers are overallocated. If Colorado takes out its "share", the states downstream get shorted out of water that never existed in the first place.
fixerupper
Well-known Member
BINGO! I don't think many people realize how many million acre feet of water is needed in the arid west. If for instance one section of Kansas land has four quarter section pivots pumping 1000 gallons per minute that's four thousand gallons per minute per section of land or 1,760,000 gallons per day if a pivot takes 24 hours to make a round. Take a peek at google earth and count the center pivots in Kansas alone. The Ogallalla reservoir is pumped down to where corn cannot be raised in some pivots because of allotments. I realize a pipeline across the US will only supplement the water capacity that is there already but a 10 or 12 foot pipeline would not do much compared to total needs.
CenTex Farmall
Well-known Member
That would require people to use logic and common sense; a bit of an ask for these days.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
> There is simply not enough water to go around.The big cities and big money will get the water,and (as usual) the farmer/rancher will get screwed.
Sometimes that's the case. But in most cases, much more water goes to agriculture than to municipal water supplies. In California, 80 percent of water goes to agriculture. In Colorado, it's about 90 percent.
> The south Platte in South Park Colorado The list goes on....Oh,we'd build the dams and reservoirs if the 'powers that be' would let us. Like the Cactus park reservoir project above Cedaredge Co. It would have provided several thousand acre ft of water.
You can't capture water that doesn't exist. Back in the eighties, the Narrows project on the South Platte was canceled, mainly because it was dubious the reservoir could ever be filled. (I guess it's still technically on the books, but it makes no more sense now than it did forty years ago.)
Sometimes that's the case. But in most cases, much more water goes to agriculture than to municipal water supplies. In California, 80 percent of water goes to agriculture. In Colorado, it's about 90 percent.
> The south Platte in South Park Colorado The list goes on....Oh,we'd build the dams and reservoirs if the 'powers that be' would let us. Like the Cactus park reservoir project above Cedaredge Co. It would have provided several thousand acre ft of water.
You can't capture water that doesn't exist. Back in the eighties, the Narrows project on the South Platte was canceled, mainly because it was dubious the reservoir could ever be filled. (I guess it's still technically on the books, but it makes no more sense now than it did forty years ago.)
teddy52food
Well-known Member
Treat it & put it back underground.
Traditional Farmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- Virginia
It would be pretty stupid to dump sea salt back in the ocean considering how much it sells for and is much in demand.
Traditional Farmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- Virginia
I doubt many eastern states would go for pumping their water out West.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
> It would be pretty stupid to dump sea salt back in the ocean considering how much it sells for and is much in demand.
The waste product of a desalination plant is concentrated brine, not purified salt. I'm not aware of any desalination plant that produces salt as a byproduct, which leads me to believe it's not economically viable.
The waste product of a desalination plant is concentrated brine, not purified salt. I'm not aware of any desalination plant that produces salt as a byproduct, which leads me to believe it's not economically viable.
Sever large and long domestic water system pipelines have been constructed in North & South Dakota that are fed from the resivours behind the Missouri River main stem dams. ND & it's Indian Tribes sacrificed more than 400,000 acres of prime farmland for it's resivour. SD and it's Indian Tribes gave up more than 530,000 acres for the resivours in SD. Some of these rural water systems were 100% paid for by the Federal Government. This was for compensation for promised irrigation systems that were never built. The irrigation systems were supposed to replace crop production lost to the flooded land. Only one small system was ever built in SD. The Garrison Diversion project was the only one that I know of that was built in ND.
The Missouri River main stem dams were built to prevent flooding on the lower Missouri and the Mississippi below St Louis. They'll also supply water for navigation during the late summer navigation season to the Missouri & Mississippi River transportation systems. Electricity for the upper mid-west is also generated by the dams.
One of the major pipelines, financed by the Feds, in ND pulls water from just above the Garrison Dam and supplies domestic water across SW ND and even supplies a rural water system in extreme NW SD. Another major Fed financed pipeline in SD draws water above the Oahe Dam near Pierre and delivers water to the Pine Ridge Reservation, more than 200 miles away. Another draws water from the East side of the Oahe resivour and delivers water to Aberdeen nearly 160 miles away. There are a couple of other "Fed funded" lines have been or are still being built. The Lewis & Clark Rural Water System is still working to deliver Missouri River water to communities in Iowa, Minnesota & SD, including Sioux Falls.
As previously indicated, some of these systems were built by the Federal Government to compensate the states for land taken for the resivours. However, there are other large systems that organized not-for-profit corporations, borrowed construction funds, primarily from Federal & State sources. These systems have literally thousands of miles of pipelines and serve thousands of customers within SD. In my opinion, there are still these kinds of projects that are needed in various parts this country. People that need them just need to organize and go after the finances to build them. I worked in SD & ND with folks to do just that for 32 years and enjoyed every minute of it.
The Missouri River main stem dams were built to prevent flooding on the lower Missouri and the Mississippi below St Louis. They'll also supply water for navigation during the late summer navigation season to the Missouri & Mississippi River transportation systems. Electricity for the upper mid-west is also generated by the dams.
One of the major pipelines, financed by the Feds, in ND pulls water from just above the Garrison Dam and supplies domestic water across SW ND and even supplies a rural water system in extreme NW SD. Another major Fed financed pipeline in SD draws water above the Oahe Dam near Pierre and delivers water to the Pine Ridge Reservation, more than 200 miles away. Another draws water from the East side of the Oahe resivour and delivers water to Aberdeen nearly 160 miles away. There are a couple of other "Fed funded" lines have been or are still being built. The Lewis & Clark Rural Water System is still working to deliver Missouri River water to communities in Iowa, Minnesota & SD, including Sioux Falls.
As previously indicated, some of these systems were built by the Federal Government to compensate the states for land taken for the resivours. However, there are other large systems that organized not-for-profit corporations, borrowed construction funds, primarily from Federal & State sources. These systems have literally thousands of miles of pipelines and serve thousands of customers within SD. In my opinion, there are still these kinds of projects that are needed in various parts this country. People that need them just need to organize and go after the finances to build them. I worked in SD & ND with folks to do just that for 32 years and enjoyed every minute of it.
Traditional Farmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- Virginia
Then how do they get the sea salt which is not just salt but salt plus the many minerals in it? All they do is evaporate the sea water and what is left is sea salt.Great for a livestock mineral and to add for minerals to the soil.Check out the Sea 90 products.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
> Then how do they get the sea salt which is not just salt but salt plus the many minerals in it? All they do is evaporate the sea water and what is left is sea salt.Great for a livestock mineral and to add for minerals to the soil.Check out the Sea 90 products.
The brine produced by a desalination plant is only 50 to 100 percent saltier than seawater. Sure, they COULD evaporate the effluent to make sea salt, but where are they supposed to do it? You would need enormous evaporation ponds to treat even a fraction of the wastewater, and desalination plants are almost always located where real estate is very expensive. (Santa Barbara CA, Carlsbad CA and Tampa Bay FL are three such locations.) The only sea salt production facility in the US is in San Francisco Bay, but it was established back in the 1850s when the land was essentially free.
The brine produced by a desalination plant is only 50 to 100 percent saltier than seawater. Sure, they COULD evaporate the effluent to make sea salt, but where are they supposed to do it? You would need enormous evaporation ponds to treat even a fraction of the wastewater, and desalination plants are almost always located where real estate is very expensive. (Santa Barbara CA, Carlsbad CA and Tampa Bay FL are three such locations.) The only sea salt production facility in the US is in San Francisco Bay, but it was established back in the 1850s when the land was essentially free.
Traditional Farmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- Virginia
If there is money in it people will figure out a way to get it done,of course with nut case CA they'd probably put so many regulations on it it'd be impossible to do anyway.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
> If there is money in it people will figure out a way to get it done,of course with nut case CA they'd probably put so many regulations on it it'd be impossible to do anyway.
But nobody IS doing it. Not in CA. Not anywhere on the planet. So there's no money in it. Which is exactly what I said in the first place.
But nobody IS doing it. Not in CA. Not anywhere on the planet. So there's no money in it. Which is exactly what I said in the first place.
Traditional Farmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- Virginia
Nowhere on the Planet? Hardly in 1964 Westinghouse set up a plant to turn sea water into fresh water at the Guantanamo Naval Base.
Traditional Farmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- Virginia
There's one at Gitmo has been since 1964
Traditional Farmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- Virginia
Google it there are 20,000 facilities in the world that turn sea water into fresh water.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
> Nowhere on the Planet? Hardly in 1964 Westinghouse set up a plant to turn sea water into fresh water at the Guantanamo Naval Base.
Oh stop! You know exactly what you meant, and what I meant. You were talking about making SEA SALT from desalination waste, NOT desalination itself. And I said it is probably not economically feasible to make sea salt in that manner. Obviously there are a number of desalination plants in operation, and I named three of them.
Post again when you find a plant that's trying to recover the waste salt. That would be interesting.
Oh stop! You know exactly what you meant, and what I meant. You were talking about making SEA SALT from desalination waste, NOT desalination itself. And I said it is probably not economically feasible to make sea salt in that manner. Obviously there are a number of desalination plants in operation, and I named three of them.
Post again when you find a plant that's trying to recover the waste salt. That would be interesting.
chuck from neb
Member
actually mcconaughy is sitting pretty good right now compared to 10 years ago. That lake goes up and down every year. I would say its about normal
Janicholson
Well-known Member
Traditional Farmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- Virginia
You're getting more weird all the time(LOL)
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
How are you planning on pumping that much water ,
that far ? Who is going to pay for this ?
Have you figured out how many pipes , what diameter ,
How many pumping stations etc .
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