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Rear tire ballast?

Geo-TH,In

Geo-TH,In

Well-known Member
I've never been a fan of fluid in tires. I prefer using rear ballast to remove weight off front wheels.
That said, I left the loader on the L3560 Kubota and used it to mulch 2 acres of leave at a rental property. In first gear the jubilee would be going 3.2 mph, second gear 4 mph at 1800 rmps. At 1550 rpm's PTO would be 540 rpms. I could easly handle the ride on the ford.
On the Kubota I had to set rpms at 2400 to get a 540 rpm. I had to set hi/lo range to lo and rear end in M to get speeds I needed. The tractor could go faster than 4 mph and easily handle the mower. Only Problem, my back couldn't handle more than 3 mph.
I reduced the rear tire pressure to 10 psi, and I was tossed side to side, back and fourth, up and down as if I were a bobble head. Back was killing me.

Next summer off comes the loader. I think the loader is why I had a ruff ride. The tractor will be on lawn mowing duty after some tree branches get pruned.

So my question is will fluid in the tires make the ride ruffer or smoother without the loader ?
I don't care if you think it will help loader. What can I do to get a smoother lawn tractor.

If you think fluid it will be smoother, have you added fluid yourself? If so how?

Tire store wants $2.25 a gallon. Menards has it on sale for $1.75. Tire store thinks it may take 30-35 gallons per tire. Doing it myself will save about $30-35 and a 25 mile to the tractor store. Not to mention the time it takes them to fill the tires.
So add fliud or not?

Thanks,
geo
 
I don't see how reducing rear tire pres. will smoothen out the ride. with a loader hanging off the front it will just magnify the hopping. I dont think a mowing tractor needs fluid, as you need the floatation on grass. its not worth the hassle trying to install fluid, when tire shops are set up to do it.
 
You may want to consider rear wheel weights instead of fluid. Is there some way to adjust the suspension on the seat? Even the suspension seat on my ZTR mower has an adjustment for weight of operator so your tractor may be similar. Does your loader have a quick tach bucket? If so, take the bucket off and leave the loader frame on the tractor as a compromise. Adjusting rear tire pressure may help similar to a pick up truck (partially) loaded rides much better than with an empty bed. In my experience there is more of a difference with the 3/4 tons than the half ton trucks. With a mower on the 3 point a weight barrel on the rear is not an option but the ride on my 55 horsepower tractor is night and day difference with the 55 gallon barrel on the 3 point hitch. Under no circumstances would I go less than 10 psi pressure in the tires.
 
I live in northern Ky and at least one auto parts store here sells windshield washer fluid for $1.00/gallon in 50 gallon drums. I own Farmall M tractors and it takes 57 gallons for a 13.6 x 38 tire filled to the top of the rim. Maybe you can guesstimate the amount of fluid for your tires by what mine take. I can tell absolutely no difference at all in the ride, but I do not have a bucket on any of them. Hope this helps. Ellis
 
You do not need (In my opinion, or want) fluid in tires to mow lawn. Whether you have fluid or just air, normal tire pressure is 12-14 pounds. Lowring the pressure will put stress on the sidewalls of the tires.
I would look for a different seat that can provide a softer ride. Cost may be about the same as loading tires. Also consider a back belt. HTH My opinion and I'm sticking to it.
 
rustred,
I too think the loader hanging off the front it will just magnify the hopping.
And yes, lowering the rear tire pressure did nothing.
Guess I'll wait until spring to find out if removing the loader helps.
geo.
 
Fluid will make the ride harsher. That is why it is discouraged in the big tractors of today. The fluid slows down the movement of the tire, it can?t flex like it needs to for today?s field radials.

As far as putting fluid in a tire goes, easy as can be. Get an adapter and a pump. I have a Flojet air operated pump that works great, but any small pump will work. Taking the fluid out of tires is the hard part. That said, I would be really hesitant to put fluid in tires today, unless I really needed the weight. I only have my loader tractor that has loaded tires, plus 1000 lbs of iron on each wheel. Just barely enough to keep the back end on the ground.
 
I'm thinking wheel weights would be nice for testing purposes.
No rear ballast will work unless you can figure out how to run a PTO throught it and connect a rear mower at the same time.
The seat does have adjustments. 3 MPH max.
 
I think just take the loader off and try it before doing anything else. I have tried to get rid of corrosive fluid. But I needed a lot of weight in a hurry on my big tractor, and had liquid put in. I'm sure it would ride better with dry tires, and iron weights instead. Liquid filled tires can't give as much as dry ones.
 

What is the pressure in the fronts? Usually it is higher with a loader on the tractor than without. You may need to reduce the pressure in the fronts to reduce the "fulcrum" effect.
 
moresmoke ,
That's what my tire shop said, "Fluid will make the ride harsher."
I can lift a load of dirt in front bucket without weights or fluid. The rear wheels are a little light . If needed, I could add rear ballast when using loader. Just can't add rear ballast when mowing.
geo
 
I found some cast weights at a good price, 185 pounds each, and the bolt holes lined up! I haven't had the loader off our JD 4600 in years, but I do take the bucket/forks off quite often. Seems like I'm always using the loader to push something out of the way, or putting trash in bucket to dispose of. Or, bringing home some wood.
cvphoto44031.jpg
 
The difference is the jubilee is a farm tractor the kubota Is a large lawn mower . Nobody makes a farm tractor under 150 horsepower anymore
 
After mowing I did need to use the front loader to mover some gravel
so I didn't mess with the front pressure.

After I remove loader and the ride is still ruff, then I'll reduce
front pressure.
geo
 
George,

Those small utility tractors have a very narrow tread and short wheelbase. Loading the rear tires will help some but don't expect a miracle. Many are used by municipallities for cleaning sidewalks and getting into tight places. Widening out the tread width will help you more than anything else you can do. You can't have it both ways. They are also extremely top heavy especially when equipped with a cab.
 
SV,
google kubota L3560.
I think it was the smallest L series kubota with cab and AC. It was around 35 hp a little more than Jubilee's. The B series kubotas could only handle a 5 ft mower. The Jubilee and kubota could handle a 6 ft mower.
geo.
 
putting weight on the rear reduces the bouncing because there is more weight to move (inertia). Wheel weights are best because they do not add to axle loading at the bearings. Adding fluid decreases the volume of air in the tire causing the tire to be less responsive to ground contact. If possible, smoothing the field with a box blade might be a great contribution to the issue. I also recommend a back brace A good effective brace meets standards from OSHA and costs a minimum of 75$ it must feel like you are wearing it, not just a Velcro stretchy thing. Jim
 
I never mow with the FEL installed.

FELs off in the spring and mowers on.

Mowers off in the fall and FELs on.

That said, your ride issue is probably not due to your FEL or the lack of liquid ballast. Check the wheelbase of your 3560 vis a vis your Jubilee. Check also the tire size. No, I have compared neither.

I change/repair all of my own tires so never use liquid ballast. Rather, I use cast iron and/or ballast boxes.

Puncture with liquid filled tire=major problem regardless of what the liquid is.

Puncture with tubeless tire filled with air=plug.

Dean
 
Dean,
I waiting on my new pole barn before removing loader. Planning on using this winter to push snow. I will definately remove it when I install the mower next spring.
Glad to know most think fluid isn't a good idea. So we are on the same page.
 
George; You need to understand the dynamics of physics. On your Ford your Butt was only a few inches above the center of the rear axles. Now in your Kubota your feet are where your BUTT was on the Ford. When one rear wheel goes up and the other down, you are going to experience lateral movement from side to side in the cab, and the enclosed space magnifies the movement in your mind. The loader has very little to do with that!!!! Tire fluid will dampen the movement, but not stop it. Try softening the suspension in the seat, and relax and "roll with the Flow" rather than fighting it.(No this is not a Progressive Commercial)--------------------------Loren
 
Tom,
Farmall has narrowed tires. Jubilee and Kubota have wider rear tires. Even the front on Kubota are wider than Farmall and Jubilee. .

cvphoto44041.jpg

The overall with of Kubota's rear tires is more than Farmall and Jubilee.

cvphoto44043.jpg
 
I think the biggest difference is how high you are sitting off the ground. Just think if you were sitting 20' off the ground and a wheel went in a 2" hole. What movement you would have up there. I am not familiar with either tractor but I gotta believe the bota is higher.
 
REALLY!!!! I see lots of new farm tractors around here in the 50-80 HP range. They are doing farm chores, mowing hay, raking hay, and pulling balers, not mowing lawns. Also a lot of them working small family cash crop vegi/fruit farms/orchards.------Loren
 
REALLY!!!! I see lots of new farm tractors around here in the 50-80 HP range. They are doing farm chores, mowing hay, raking hay, and pulling balers,( not mowing lawns). Also a lot of them working small family cash crop vegi/fruit farms/orchards.------Loren
 
I seem to remember that Kubota discourages fluid in the tires. I may be wrong though. I have two sets of weights on my L4600 and it makes a big difference, I'd like to add one more set though. Not cheap at all...
 
It's always going to be a rough ride with a light tractor and short wheel base. Adding the weight should help. I use beet juice and I can tell a difference.
 
George -I agree with ACG-adjust your seat, and don't fight the swaying -just roll with it. I too have a messed up back and used to do serious quad runner riding. How I got thru it was to learn to move with/anticipate the terrain/quad motion. On my tractor I had new tires put on, with calcium, and both leaked. so when he fixed them, he lost fluid, and he did not replace it.(And he still needs to!)I 've had this tractor for 15yrs on this farm, and I could tell it was low on tire fluid, but only by the traction I lost on my hilly farm!
Set your seat to be very 'springy' and to 'rock and roll', if it has these settings. Semi trucks do and they are a back saver. Also your loader looks to be quick attach, should on take a few minutes tops to remove and install. I never leave mine on for anything-if I'm not using it=off it comes. I know it rides better with it off, even if it is a bigger tractor than yours. But I remove the loader mainly for maneuverability mostly though. Mark.
 
Geo, look at the picture of your Bota. The rear TIRES are only running on the centers. Was the picture taken after or before reducing pressure? If after, you need to reduce pressure. THOSE R 3 or 4 tires are STIFF.
 
All the newer tractors are way too light in the rear end as far as I'm concerned fluid and about 3 sets of wheel weights will get you where it needs to be,plus you'll be taking a lot of strain off the front end of your tractor when you do loader work in 4WD.
 

I would vote, adding fluid will increase the stiffness of the tires, making the ride rougher. Think of it this way: Fluid is not compressible and adding fluid displaces air. The air volume is what gives you the spring to absorb bumps. Given, the same bump and the same tire deflection will result in a greater increase in pressure. Therefore, the spring rate (stiffness) of the tire increases.

As a kid, dad always put fluid in every tractor on the farm. He always specified a fill to the level of the tire valve at 12:00 - no more. Many farmers liked to fill the tires near full leaving very little room for air. Since I only ever drove tractors with fluid in the tires I don't how much difference the fluid made. As a kid I thought the ride was fine - however, my back was not sensitive back then either.
 
I noticed rear tires are running in the middle. The outer 3.5 inches don't come in contact with
cvphoto44054.jpg

Floor even at 10 psi.
 
The bucket off will help with the weight proportionate of the tractor. The loader is about evenly distributed on the tractor for weight. The bucket acts as a cantilevered weight hanging off the front. As for ride with liquid in tires after over 50 years of tractor driving and loading tires and not I can't see a difference. You could put a small weight bracket on the back of your mower to hold a couple of weights which would be much greater effect than removing the loader. Might also go to a regular tractor tire on the rear.
Get a truck seat with the air set up then just add some air to make it ride like you want.
 
(quoted from post at 16:10:21 12/08/19) I've never been a fan of fluid in tires. I prefer using rear ballast to remove weight off front wheels.
That said, I left the loader on the L3560 Kubota and used it to mulch 2 acres of leave at a rental property. In first gear the jubilee would be going 3.2 mph, second gear 4 mph at 1800 rmps. At 1550 rpm's PTO would be 540 rpms. I could easly handle the ride on the ford.
On the Kubota I had to set rpms at 2400 to get a 540 rpm. I had to set hi/lo range to lo and rear end in M to get speeds I needed. The tractor could go faster than 4 mph and easily handle the mower. Only Problem, my back couldn't handle more than 3 mph.
I reduced the rear tire pressure to 10 psi, and I was tossed side to side, back and fourth, up and down as if I were a bobble head. Back was killing me.

Next summer off comes the loader. I think the loader is why I had a ruff ride. The tractor will be on lawn mowing duty after some tree branches get pruned.

So my question is will fluid in the tires make the ride ruffer or smoother without the loader ?
I don't care if you think it will help loader. What can I do to get a smoother lawn tractor.

If you think fluid it will be smoother, have you added fluid yourself? If so how?

Tire store wants $2.25 a gallon. Menards has it on sale for $1.75. Tire store thinks it may take 30-35 gallons per tire. Doing it myself will save about $30-35 and a 25 mile to the tractor store. Not to mention the time it takes them to fill the tires.
So add fliud or not?

Thanks,
geo
Click to expand...

Dunno WHY a retired guy with some "cha ching" and a bad back would need need a "lawn mower" with a loader, or a "loader tractor" with a lawn mower, but if what you are doing is hurting your injured back, it might be time to back off and reevaluate what the best health/life choices are for a guy in your situation, IMHO.

Sometimes, we have to accept our limitations and our mortality, IMHO.

(Myself, as well, "I'm not as good as I once was"!)
 
Yes doing chores and light work but they are not heavy enough compared to the old tractors .?my neighbor has about a 110 horsepower kubota and there is no way I?d ever dare pull a 9000 pound baler with it that thing scares you to death trying to lift a thousand pound hay bale at least one good thing you should save some wear on at least One of the rear tires 😂
 
If your mowing a ?lawn? why so much bouncing, and swaying? Is it a rutted up plowed over field that has grass growing on it? I have a 1994 ford 1720 w/loader, I ted and rake hay with, and mow pasture, I never take the loader off, rear tires are loaded r1 ag tires, I run it all day and never have what you describe! And I would never own a tractor with r4 tires, when you posted you bought this I said you won?t like those tires! Wait until you have regen problems with it!! Maybe go back to your jubilee!
 
My Kubota dealer would not let me take nor would they deliver my M6060 with the loader without first putting fluid in the rear tires. I had them leave the rears set in (big mistake) they need to be set out for stability. They also had too much air for my liking in them. I have always been taught that 1 lug flat on ground, 1 lug just coming in contact and 1 lug just leaving contact for rears. I adjusted the seat for my weight and adjusted the tires and it made a lot of difference. It did take some getting used too operating the Bota after operating other tractors as some others have said due to the difference of where you are sitting compared to the tractors that do not have a cab. We use ours to move hay and load or unload equipment so the loader never comes off. We've always filled to the 10 o'clock not 12, that will allow for some flex in the tires too. Just my thoughts. Keith
 
Hey George, I suspect adding ballast to your tires will improve the ride a bit, but it will also increase your soil compaction. Which is one reason I don't use my tractor for mowing. (The main reason is my ZTR can mow just as fast and I don't have to fool around with mounting my flail mower.) But I'm a big fan of tire ballast, even though I know it has a lot of drawbacks. Ballasted tires lower the tractor's center of gravity, which is no small thing on our hilly property. Note that ballasting the front tires will help to lower the CG even more than just ballasting the rears.

When you say "fluid", do you mean windshield washer fluid? Rimguard will be more than two bucks a gallon, I think. FWIW, I have washer fluid in my rear tires, one front has Rimguard and the other still has CaCl. Washer fluid is economical, although not as heavy as the other two. Tire shops seem to like washer fluid because it's not as messy as Rimguard.

I know there are folks here who ballast their own tires but I've never done it myself. Having it done would be well worth the expense and aggravation of taking it to the tire shop, IMO. To do yourself, you'll need a <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Milton-S-466-Tire-Valve-Adapter/dp/B000J1SQXI/ref=asc_df_B000J1SQXI/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312065537890&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15067362856384833193&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9016990&hvtargid=aud-829758849484:pla-434845734439&psc=1">garden hose adapter</a> and a drum or other container you can elevate several feet so you can use gravity to fill your tires.
 

Once you take the loader off 4 are 5 times you will find there is nuttin to it... My Bota was delivered with loaded rears I added more weight : )... All my mowing is fields nice flat ones and I rarely have to do that anymore when I do I use my ZTM its faster and does a better job...

Take the loader off is my answer..
 
(quoted from post at 01:38:32 12/09/19) my neighbor has about a 110 horsepower kubota and there is no way I?d ever dare pull a 9000 pound baler with it that thing scares you to death trying to lift a thousand pound hay bale
Click to expand...

I have no intentions of pulling a 9000# baler with my Kubota tractor but it handles 1000# rd bales very well for a 70 HP tractor. In fact it's handled several thousand rd bales since I purchased it 6 yrs ago.
 
I've always thought tractors rode better with fluid in the tires. Why not get a garden hose adapter and fill them with water when it warms up. If you like it, drain the water and add washer fluid or rim guard. Just don't forget and let it freeze!
 
TSC sells the tire adapter for about $10---i use an old sump pump in a 5 gallon bucket to fill my tires with used antifreeze--goes a lot quicker than gravity fill
 
I have 2 cast iron weights on each side of my L6060 Kubota (same series as your 3560 but larger). I have another pair on order to get it to the maximum of 3 per side.

Kubota weights are expensive and you will likely need to pay shipping unless your dealer agrees to do you a favor by having them put on a load from Kubota with other equipment.

You can also have your dealer buy weights from North States (they do not sell retail). The North States weights are less expensive and they charge no shipping on orders of 500 Lbs. or more. Don't hold me to the 500 Lbs. It could be 1,000 Lbs. (can't remember).

Dean
 
First off I really dislike using CC in tires,, some times it cannot be helped though,, that said,, it does help the ride unless you fill them to the top,, as long as you leave 10-20% for air you still have the same flex maybe even a bit more than without it,, wheel weights I would chose any day over liquid,, but again it takes a Lot of them to get the same weight as CC will, here is my uncle's Kubota I setup for him,, I have 6 sets of weights on it (6 each side) think they are 85-95 lbs weights,, it is still not enough counter weight without a implement on the 3pt if you are really maxing out loader lift capacity. I sold tractors new of many decades as well as use them so I have a pretty good idea what works and what does not,, this tractor has no liquid weight in the rear wheels, I will say the industrial tires on this one ride stiff,, I only run 12 psi in them with all the weight I have on it and she rides far better than when it was delivered. I also installed a Grouser belly blade on it for him, that alone added 1200 lbs to the counter weight. before I added the belly blade I was running 5 psi in the rears so they would "flex" a bit and not ride like steel wheels. When I mowed road ditches and did all the reseeding when we rebuilt a road for the County here I was running a Ford 7700 with FWA, it was a top heavy tractor for this kind of work, it had a couple wheel weights but not nearly enough for steep slopes to hold her down, I had the rear tires loaded with CC and that Really helped hold it on slopes as the weight was concentrated at the bottom of the tires,, night and day change in having a wheel get so light it would stop moving unless I had it in 4x4 and or diff lock on. the little guys like you have and my uncle has are Prone to tipping sideways even on flat ground if you do not have the needed counter weight, all it takes is to have the load in the bucket a bit to one side and get that loader above the hood and things can turn Ugly Quick. Sorry I should have snapped a few more pics of it
cvphoto44069.jpg
 
When tires are filled with ballast to 75 percent (top of the rim), only 25 percent of the air is left to compress over bumps, so the spring rate (stiffness) will rise quicker with fluid in the tire, so a filled tire will be firmer than an air filled tire at the same air pressure. Other factors could offset that: the ground compresses more; the extra mass makes the tractor lift and heave slower; etc.
 
Your Jubilee was rated at about 32 PTO HP whereas your 3560 is 28 PTO HP, but the 3560 is generations more modern. FWIW: The L3560 is considered marginally underpowered, especially if cab equipped.

A 6' finish mower is OK for your 3560 but a 6' rough cut mower is really pushing things unless conditions are moderate and the mower is not too heavy.

I have an L6060 on which I use a Woods BB720X HD 6' mower and it's often all that the 53 PTO HP 6060 wants in some of the conditions where I use it. If turned on, I often find the stall guard feature reducing ground speed, sometimes to zero, in the tough stuff even though the 720X clears well and I keep the blades SHARP.

I also have a 27 PTO HP B3350 on which I use a Frontier RC2060 5' mower as well as a 72" MMM. It handles both well in all of the conditions where I use it, but it is considerably lighter than your 3560 so considerably less HP is needed just to move things around.

All of my tractors are open station because I routinely drive around and beneath trees. ROPS model tractors are lighter and less HP is needed just to move. I also never use liquid ballast, further limiting weight, but my dealer made a mistake on my 3350 and filled the rear tires with Rim Guard. When I noticed it they agreed to not charge me for the Rim Guard rather than swap the wheels/tires for a non filled set and I agreed. Hopefully, I will never have a puncture. Grrrrrr.

If I were to mount a 6' rotary cutter to your 3560, I would look for a light weight model and only use it in light or moderate conditions. I would also keep the blades sharp so long as I was not mowing saplings.

Dean
 
Well said, Loren.

Removing the FEL will reduce the longitudinal bucking effect somewhat, however.

Dean
 
Don't reduce the pressure too much, George, especially if you drive on steep terrain. Is there any steep terrain in Terre Haute (just kidding)?

The tires are tubeless and low pressure can cause the downhill tire to peel off of the rim on a side hill, very often resulting in a rollover.

I would not worry about the tires contacting your concrete floor only in the center, providing that the tire pressure is within the recommendations in your owner's manual. Follow the recommendations in your manual and all will be well.

Dean
 
George, We are not singing from the same page in the hymnal. I am talking about how far apart the rear tires are, distance from the left tire to the right tire. Not the width of the individual tires.
 
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