Solar panel update

Philip d · Aug 19, 2019

I talked to the renewable energy people today about the brief
particulars of solar panels on our tractor shed. It is definitely a
no go on our end. He said a unit that would supplement
roughly 1/2 of our power consumption would cost $43 000.
Ouch!!! The government rebate would be $10 000 but I?m still
not interested in paying $33 000 upfront hoping it might pay
for itself in 10 years if it?s not weakened to the point of poor
production. I?ll take my chances and pay my power bill
monthly vs 10 years worth in one shot.

old · Aug 19, 2019

Yes solar looks and sounds good till it it come time to pay for it and then it is a but if it takes 10 plus years to pay off and make $$ back is it worth it and how long will it work and what will it take to keep it working

centash · Aug 19, 2019

I agree with you! The fellas here that like them got in on the ground floor so to speak, with the lucrative 80 plus cents per kwh contracts. None have been put up since, excepting for roof panels on new construction. You would potentially save more by retrofitting inefficient appliances and lighting.

Ben

John S-B · Aug 19, 2019

And that's not even considering storage batteries...
I'd LOVE to use solar and wind power and be off the grid, If I were a multi-millionaire...

gajack · Aug 19, 2019

Thanks Phil, I did't need to read much of that summary
to know I am not in that game.
Good luck, j

John T · Aug 19, 2019

Sounds lie it NOT for you based on those numbers ITS NOT FOR EVERYBODY. At the right cost of installation and right utility buy back prices and subject to rebates, energy costs and sunlight hours it may work in some places of course...?...On my small scale RV application ITS GREAT however.

John T

37chief · Aug 19, 2019

In 2020, California will require solar panels on all new home construction. But we're saving the planet the state banned plastic straws. My town banned plastic grocery bags, but you can but one for 10 cents at checkout. Figure that one out. Plastic bottles are next, just watch. Stan

Mike(NEOhio) · Aug 19, 2019

I'm seeing quite a few panels on Amish homes around Middlefield, Oh these days. Small one, I think they're charging batteries for buggy lights and cell phones.

Bob Harvey · Aug 19, 2019

Well, not solar, BUT, we retro fitted our joint with an air to air heat exchange system. Cost $7500 (-$1000 gov't rebate) Hydro costs went from $180 per mo. (average out plan) to $70 per mo. actual. AND, we get a de-humidifier setting and A/C.

Charlie M · Aug 19, 2019

One of the questions I never see mentioned is when they are mounted on the roof what happens when the roof eventually needs replacement. Removing the panels will had some serious cost to a new roof.

centash · Aug 19, 2019

Hmmmm.....maybe the panels protect the roof surface somewhat, to the extent they both need replacing at the same time....?

Ben

DoubleO7 · Aug 19, 2019

(quoted from post at 20:48:12 08/19/19) One of the questions I never see mentioned is when they are mounted on the roof what happens when the roof eventually needs replacement. Removing the panels will had some serious cost to a new roof.

Roof mounted is the least desirable location.
If you have the right spot and space, ground mounted is preferred.

Patsdeere · Aug 19, 2019

Just banned disposable water bottles in the great City of SF..... At least Coke is bottling water in cans now....

CenTex Farmall · Aug 19, 2019

Our homeowner's insurance as of last year specifically *excludes* any kind of coverage for solar panels. I think it has to do with potential hail storm damage. Our electric cooperative does not buy excess electric output from solar panels.

I priced a system a few years ago and the payback time exceeded twenty years. That was not even considering replacing any batteries in the battery bank with an estimated life span of ten years (Rolls-Surette).

Sekelbos · Aug 20, 2019

In South Africa, on average with much more irradiation compared to the USA ,it is only feasible to install a solar system if you will go completely off grid.The fixed cost(so called line and maintenance cost) is about 60 to 70% of your electric bill.You cannot pay the solar system on savings on your kW-h consumption, you need to get rid of the total energy bill.
As I said it will be doubtful if you in the States with a very much colder climate will ever be able to go off grid. In the winter you need energy to heat your homes etc from outside sources.

Geo-TH,In · Aug 20, 2019

I think people that use the term "pay for itself in 10 years" is crap.
I have many investments in market. Some guarantee a 6% or better annual return. 6% minimum and better if the market does more than 6%.

For the mathematically challenged, a 6% per year return means in less than 12 years your investment will be double. So in less than 12 years your $33,000 becomes $66,000.

So when something pays for itself, you better think of will it pay for the interest on money you borrow and the loan too?

18 months ago I bought a new car. It was the first time in my life (70) I didn't pay cash for a vehicle. I took out a GM 1.9% loan. I anunitized a market investment which each month it deposits a check in my checking account. GM withdraws monthly payment from checking. My market investment is paying for my car and at the same time the investment value is increasing. That's what I call paying for itself.

WNYBill · Aug 20, 2019

Wind farms take up 450 times more room than a equal Gas fired generating plant. Got to believe solar is even worse. Don't forget the solar and wind farms are getting PILOT (payment in lie of taxes) so the rest of us have to make up the tax shortfall along with paying for the government subsides and out right grants.

Jimmydog · Aug 20, 2019

Philip, thanks for posting your update. Wow that is a lot of money, that must be one heck of a big system they quoted you. I take it we weren't talking your run of the mill 3 or 4 bedroom house with 2 baths, attached one and a half car garage, two parents and, two and a half kids then? I can't help but wonder how much of that 43K was labor/installation, and how much would go towards profit. Around here that would be enough for me to build my dream system and have enough left over for a decent compact tractor...okay maybe a used one but still. Oh who am I kidding I'd buy 4 or 5 of those 50's era ones.

JD

Jimmydog · Aug 20, 2019

Geo, you might want to make some of those investments in solar stocks. Motely Fool just came out with a report bullish on solar stocks. Says Canadian Solar is running at near 100% capacity, and will be for the next year. Said the next three largest manufacturers are also having large sales volumes. Just thought you'd might want to know.

JD

Russ from MN · Aug 20, 2019

I wish MN would ban plastic bags, every chain link fence along the freeway is full of them!

jddrawbar · Aug 20, 2019

WNYBill, you are spot on!

INCase · Aug 20, 2019

you'd better look at the fine print on the "payback" period. as others have said below pay back is dependent on a few things including interest.

i looked at one thru my company as we used to have a solar product. with the employee discount it was more like 20 year payback on my house.

we have a farm friend that put a big unit in. took the power company forever to connect it to the grid. in Indiana the utility lobby got them to pass it so the utilities don't have to buy back after a certain year (don't remember).

my friend i thought said 10 years for his pay back. i suspect being used for farm purposes he can write off some of it too so that would help.

rustyfarmall · Aug 20, 2019

(quoted from post at 05:10:39 08/20/19) Wind farms take up 450 times more room than a equal Gas fired generating plant. Got to believe solar is even worse. Don't forget the solar and wind farms are getting PILOT (payment in lie of taxes) so the rest of us have to make up the tax shortfall along with paying for the government subsides and out right grants.

BINGO!!! And that's the truth.

Geo-TH,In · Aug 20, 2019

I only invite in guaranteed returns.
I had a person who wanted to sell me a
heat pump. Same story it will pay for
itself. I said he can install it and
I'll pay him just my savings for the
number of years it was going to take to
pay for itself.

Well that changed his attitude about
paying for itself.

Anyone wants to install wind or solar on
my property I'll let them and only pay
them the savings until it's paid for.

Mathematically challenged people may fall
for IT WILL PAY FOR ITSELF.

Vito · Aug 21, 2019

The great state of CT is right behind that state. Total lunacy in my opinion.

Vito

rustyfarmall · Aug 22, 2019

Wal-Mart has several stores with solar panels on the roofs. Those solar panels were made by Tesla. Apparently many of those panels have been catching on fire. Wal-Mart is suing Tesla.

IaLeo · Aug 22, 2019

I just drove by dozens of windturbines here in Iowa and from the road, there was corn growing under them. Pretty hard to grow corn in the concrete parking lots at a gas-fired generating plant. Of the dozens operating, I saw only one stilled. They were all turning very slowly in almost no wind. ??????
Leo

buickanddeere · Aug 22, 2019

(quoted from post at 10:01:00 08/22/19) I just drove by dozens of windturbines here in Iowa and from the road, there was corn growing under them. Pretty hard to grow corn in the concrete parking lots at a gas-fired generating plant. Of the dozens operating, I saw only one stilled. They were all turning very slowly in almost no wind. ??????
Leo

It means that the turbine seer won t making any power .
How large is the parking lot at a gas fired turbine power station ?

Jimmydog · Aug 22, 2019

Rusty, thanks for pointing that out, I hadn't heard about that. I wouldn't have thought a solar panel could catch on fire. About the only thing that could combust on a panel is the plastic coating and junction box on the backside, and it would take a heck of an ignition source to get that going. But then again I wouldn't have thought to hook so many of them up in series to get to hundreds and thousands of volts DC either. And if I did I'm sure I still wouldn't do it. At those voltages you could start a lot of things that don't normally combust on fire. Obviously a major design flaw not an indictment of the panels themselves. Makes me wonder just what advantage the engineers thought to gain by using high voltage DC? Anybody have any guesses? I just assumed all the big installations used micro invertors.

Enough with this land usage nonsense, it's just a strawman argument and you all know it! There's plenty places to site panels. If every home and business in this country had solar panels covering their roof, we'd have more energy than we'd know what to do with. Of course we might lose a couple Wal-marts along the way, but I'd just chalk that up as part of the cost of progress. Heh heh.

JD

docmirror · Aug 22, 2019

(quoted from post at 08:38:30 08/22/19) I wouldn't have thought a solar panel could catch on fire.

At those voltages you could start a lot of things that don't normally combust on fire. Obviously a major design flaw not an indictment of the panels themselves. Makes me wonder just what advantage the engineers thought to gain by using high voltage DC? Anybody have any guesses? I just assumed all the big installations used micro invertors.

JD

I've done three residential solar installs. I'm guessing the WalMart fires were related to arcing of the voltage where panels have been run in series, and igniting some kind of roof material. The panel itself won't burn except for some plastic bits.

The max working voltage for any large poly panel is usually between 1000 and 1500VDC. If the open circuit voltage of the 300W panel is ~40 volts, then one could string 37 of them in series before exceeding the 1500VDC value. Also, it is only the two end panels that will see any kind of voltage like that, as the middle panel will obviously be only the single open circuit voltage.

My experience was much lower voltage, but I consider the wiring and connectors I've seen to be substandard.

My son has looked at solar on his roof several times, and I help him see that the payback that solar sellers predict is wildly optimistic. Plus, if ones state does not buy-back Kw from the grid, the value becomes very marginal. Even with the great reduction in panel cost per watt, it's still relegated to off-grid solutions.

My off-grid installs also come with a Champion duel fuel 3400W genset. It has a pushbutton start, variable load run mode, will run plenty of motors found in a common home, and are needed when sun power is scarce in Feb/mar for much of the nation. The inverter I use has an option for generator input, and will sync the inverter power to the generator to reduce fuel use. Combined with using Propane on the get, this makes for a very efficient package, with almost no chance of loss of power as long as there's a propane tank around. If one runs out of propane, it will run on gas until the propane truck shows up.

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