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IH 504 Problem - Still not solved. Super stumped.

F

Fargo

Member
Problem started like this:
I start mowing and after 5-10 minutes under load the engine sputters, cutting in and out progressively worse and engine dies about 20 seconds later after it gets real bad. Symptoms similar to like it is not getting Fuel. Wait One minute and it starts right up. Problem repeats.

Now problem has progressed to where even after cold start motor idles fine but when I throttle up, engine starts sputtering and skipping as if no fuel. Here is a video. PS it always knocked at idle. You will see me throttling up smoothly and after a brief moment of smooth acceleration,engine starts struggling and skipping horribly and begins to die. Back down to idle and smooth again.

https://youtu.be/VlGLidUw0Ik

Here is what I have tried or done When it was running rough:

Someone suggested coils so I replaced that as old one was due for change.
Replaced condenser.
Cleaned spark plugs
Points getting good spark
New distributor cap
All new plug wires
New Battery
Sediment bowl for gas is clean and fuel flow was inhibited so I cleaned out gas valve and now seems good with perfect flow. Cleaned fuel line.
Gas cap is well vented. Ran without gas cap same problem
Cleaned crankcase breather cap in case it was a problem
Cleaned oil bath air cleaner. Ran with out. Same problem
Opened idle jet ? and than ? more - no change
Took apart carb twice, clean, new gaskets . replace fuel flow needle and jet. Wire fuel line screen clean


I am not a natural mechanic. What else could it be? Manifold?

THANK YOU!
Untitled URL Link
 
Not helpful Chuck. Clearly I know that is an option and clearly I can do a fair amount of mech work. Not in the budget right now. That is why I am posting here. Looking for help on a problem in this venue. Please do not post on my thread if you can't be helpful. Save your energy for other things. Thank you.
 
You've got a bad manifold gasket, doesn't sound like it's running on all 4, check for something floating around in the gas tank.
 
(quoted from post at 15:25:00 05/26/19) Not helpful Chuck. Clearly I know that is an option and clearly I can do a fair amount of mech work. Not in the budget right now. That is why I am posting here. Looking for help on a problem in this venue. Please do not post on my thread if you can't be helpful. Save your energy for other things. Thank you.
Click to expand...
Well said.
 
(quoted from post at 15:25:35 05/26/19) You've got a bad manifold gasket, doesn't sound like it's running on all 4, check for something floating around in the gas tank.
Click to expand...

Thanks Mark I forgot to mention in the original post that I also put a new manifold gasket on. Nice and clean and soaked in oil.
 
well listening to the video tells me that yep something is wrong , in one way it sounds like and exhaust leak . It's not the same as me standing there . How good are you at adjusting valves?? and do you have a timing light to check ing. timing ?? do you have and I T manual for your tractor , do you have the ing. wires installed correctly ?? Have you run a compression test on the engine ?? Do you have the coil wired correctly ??? These are the things i go thru BEFORE i start throwing money at it. Also at some point in time show and up close shot of the carb.
 
Asking a question on this forum is like asking a truck driver how to bake a cake. Sure, you might luck out and actually get a truck driver who knows how to bake, but more than likely you'll just get 40 different vague opinions and none will help you. Find a more specialized forum.
 
I do not know how big a disc you are pulling or how hard the tractor is working so I'll just suggest this.
Is there a fuel filter in the line?
As the tractor starts working harder the engine wants more fuel to make more power so the fuel flow goes up. If the fuel filter is a little bit plugged the engine gets starved and will act like you are describing. Change the fuel filter.
 
I chased one like yours once and found the wire to the coil was broken except for a few strands. As the wire heated the resistance increased until a miss developed, then it would cut off. It cooled quickly enough to restart in a few minuets. I have heard of ignition switches doing the same thing. Put a meter on it as soon as it acts up, or run a wire from the battery to the coil. Hope this helps.
 
Fargo: very good suggestions on the wire and switches, also does it have a white ballast resistor on the ignition? Timing and valve setting must be checked too. To test intake manifolds spray either around it and see if the motor revs up. Last look for worn distributor bushing or drive. Best I can think of. An old mechanic told me to do one thing to a time, sounds like you already did a boat load to it.
 
(quoted from post at 08:56:59 05/26/19) Problem started like this:
I start mowing and after 5-10 minutes under load the engine sputters, cutting in and out progressively worse and engine dies about 20 seconds later after it gets real bad. Symptoms similar to like it is not getting Fuel. Wait One minute and it starts right up. Problem repeats.

Now problem has progressed to where even after cold start motor idles fine but when I throttle up, engine starts sputtering and skipping as if no fuel. Here is a video. PS it always knocked at idle. You will see me throttling up smoothly and after a brief moment of smooth acceleration,engine starts struggling and skipping horribly and begins to die. Back down to idle and smooth again.

https://youtu.be/VlGLidUw0Ik

Here is what I have tried or done When it was running rough:

Someone suggested coils so I replaced that as old one was due for change.
Replaced condenser.
Cleaned spark plugs
Points getting good spark
New distributor cap
All new plug wires
New Battery
Sediment bowl for gas is clean and fuel flow was inhibited so I cleaned out gas valve and now seems good with perfect flow. Cleaned fuel line.
Gas cap is well vented. Ran without gas cap same problem
Cleaned crankcase breather cap in case it was a problem
Cleaned oil bath air cleaner. Ran with out. Same problem
Opened idle jet ? and than ? more - no change
Took apart carb twice, clean, new gaskets . replace fuel flow needle and jet. Wire fuel line screen clean


I am not a natural mechanic. What else could it be? Manifold?

THANK YOU!
Untitled URL Link
Click to expand...

"Someone suggested coils so I replaced that as old one was due for change."

(I'd better not comment on that.)

Two things...

1.) Check for spark cold with and adjustable gap spark tester and note how far the spark will jump, then check again when it's screwing up.

2.) IF you can do this safely, with the engine cold, with a suitable container in hand, remove the bowl drain plug from the carburetor.

There should be a fast flow of gas as the float bowl empties, than a slower, but steady flow as the float drops and the inlet valve opens and fuel from the tank flows through the carburetor inlet valve. The flow has to be adequate to sustain the engine under load.

(I don't think this tractor has a fuel pump, if it does, post back for more details.)

Also, does your specific carburetor have an electric shutoff solenoid on the main jet?
 
Fargo,after listening to the video I have a couple observations. First is probably a manifold leak. You can CAREFULLY check this out while the engine is running after first starting so everything isn't blasted hot. Feel (by not touching) around the exhaust ports of the manifold. You should feel exhaust gas escaping between the manifold and head. Don't keep your fingers in one place or you will obviously burn them. If you question go back and check again. Just remember don't keep your fingers in one spot very long... The second thing I heard was that I think that you may have a burnt exhaust valve. The way you can check this is by a cylinder leak down test. The engine sounds like that is missing, partially might be the exhaust manifold gasket but I think that I heard more. Lastly the loss of power makes me wonder if you have something floating in the gas tank, then covering the outlet of the tank, blocking fuel flow. You may have to remove and thoroughly flush out the gas tank. These are just my suggestions. It looks like you have covered the rest of the bases along with the other suggestions here. Good luck!
 
(quoted from post at 07:25:00 05/26/19) Not helpful Chuck. Clearly I know that is an option and clearly I can do a fair amount of mech work. Not in the budget right now. That is why I am posting here. Looking for help on a problem in this venue. Please do not post on my thread if you can't be helpful. Save your energy for other things. Thank you.
Click to expand...
I will endeavor to be more helpful. I was only suggesting that you could go the route if needed but know that I know your budget is limited I will post with that in mind.
 
couple things i would try. first find a push lawn mower and grab the fuel tank off it. run a hose directly to the carb eliminating everything from the old fuel system. start it and see how it runs. also check to see if there is a small fuel filter where the fuel line goes in the carb. not sure if yours has one, but look anyway. other thing i would try is get about 5 ft or so of 12 or 14 gauge insulated wire (automotive type) and crimp alligator clamps on each end. disconnect the hot wire that goes to the distributor and put one end of the alligator clip on it. be sure tractor is out of gear. clip the other end to the hot post on the battery and try and start the tractor. the only way to shut the tractor off is to remove one end of the alligator clip wire. what this does is eliminate the ignition switch and all related wiring. if it runs good now you can troubleshoot the wiring harness.
 
Thanks Bob. All my flow tests are strong right on through fast flows out of the carb drain plug.
 
Thanks 47. Yesterday my neighbor and I ran a direct wire from battery to coil to bypass ignition wires and the problem persisted. I was getting a small 12 v spark at this wire so I know it was working.
 
so if it starts fine and idles okay then I would say your spark, ignition is fine. that tells me your carb is full of fuel and it starts fine. now we have to determine why its not getting any more fuel when you rev it up. when you give it more gas you actually open the intake flapper to suck more fuel out of your carb. when that happens the float in your carb drops to add more fuel. you said you were getting a good flow of fuel from the tank. first thing I would do is loosen the line where it goes into the carb. put a bucket under the line and open the valve all the way for a second. it should run a full stream. that will illuminate any restriction in the fuel line. fill it with wd-40. that acts like a lubricant. try that and see what happens. it is possible your float is hanging up and not letting anymore fuel come in fast enough. idle fine tells me your governor is okay as it start wide open than backs down to your idle speed immediately. from what you have posted I suspect its in your carb. just got to find out why. also hold your hand over the suction of the carb and spin it over a few turns. if you feel a pretty good suction that would illuminate any suction leaks which could cause it as when your flapper is opened up it creates more suction to get more fuel. leave your fuel cap loosened during all this in case its not being vented properly. let me know. thanks norm
 
Really lumpie, I thought there were several responses that could be helpful. Trouble shooting is just that, eliminating what it could be til the problem is solved. but what do I know,I used to drive truck. gobble
 
My 504 came from the family that was an IH dealership. It had a ballist resistor added to it when I bought it.I agree try a standalone fuel tank. 99 percent of the trouble I had with that tractor was a rusty gas tank and 1 percent a loose key switch
 
Have you checked the sparkplugs to make sure they are actually firing in the cylinders? I am slightly hard of hearing but it sounds like it is only firing on a couple of cylinders. Could have a bad plug or valves aren't working.
 
first thing I would do is a compression test to see if you have a good engine , then the rest is pretty simple
 
Fargo, listening to the video, I'm not heating an engine that idles well, or runs well.

Sounds like a bad exhaust leak (blown manifold gasket, cracked/burned out manifold), or an externally blown head gasket. Though an exhaust leak won't cause running problems, a head gasket will. Can you tell where the leak is? You should be able to feel the leak, or a shot of oil in the carb intake will give a smoke bomb effect.

There could be valve problems, out of adjustment, broken spring, bent pushrods, loose valve seat. A visual inspection and valve setting will be helpful, and a compression check/leak down test too.

A quick and easy test for valve/compression/general engine health is to remove and ground the coil wire, remove the air filter hose from the carb, hold your hand over the carb inlet, crank the engine through. You should get strong steady vacuum. No intermittent pulses, no back flow.

The only other thing I would check, side play in the distributor shaft. Any play will cause the points to not stay set. The points going out of set is often associated with changes in RPM.
 
a compression check is first on the list , and a valve lash setting check or adjustment. when u go to the doctor the first thing they do is check how your ticker is ticking. you threw a pile of parts at it.
 
Rotor? The test is-take the cap off and hold the coil wire in the middle of the rotor with fuse pliers, or maybe a clothes pin, and see if fire jumps to the rotor. If it does, then it's bad.
 
Let me just add this. Suggestions on compression checks, wiring, switches, valve check and adjustment, distributor and timing are right on. I have had the needle valve stick in the seat. Would run fine for a while, then when float and needle would shut fuel off when bowl full, needle valve would not drop to let fuel in as float drops. Most of the time, needle would jar loose as engine jarred to a stop. If all else fails, something else to check. I try to use needle valve with the small wire wrapped under the float. Pulls needle down as float lowers.
 
On a cold engine, start it and check the exhaust manifold temperature at each cylinder.If all cylinders are firing the manifold ports will get hot quickly. If one or more are cool or only warm, you have cylinders misfiring or dead.
 
that exhaust leak could be leaking into the intake if it has a shared intake and exhaust it might have crack all the way across both intake and exhaust if it has a shared manifold ,I can not tell from the video
 
(quoted from post at 17:48:42 05/26/19) that exhaust leak could be leaking into the intake if it has a shared intake and exhaust it might have crack all the way across both intake and exhaust if it has a shared manifold ,I can not tell from the video
Click to expand...

"I start mowing and after 5-10 minutes under load the engine sputters, cutting in and out progressively worse and engine dies about 20 seconds later after it gets real bad."

While nothing is IMPOSSIBLE, the chances of a manifold issue (intake and/or exhaust) causing this exact scenario is a million to one.

It is either losing spark, or running short of fuel, simply as that.

(NOT to say there's not an exhaust leak making noise.)
 
The new condenser could be bad. The points may be out of adj or dirty. Does the carb have venturi that could be installed upside down? You may have fixed one problem and caused another. Time to backtrack.
 
Reading these replies reminded me of a similar problem I had with a pickup. That problem ended up being a wire broken inside of the insulation. That wire was the one which is between the distributor and the coil. I finally found it when it failed altogether about two blocks from the dealer.
 
Had the same kind of issues with my 9N. i replaced the points, condenser and plugs more than once but the issue persisted with minor variations in length of run time. Finally got the electronic ignition kit from YT and no more issues; she starts better than ever and runs great till the tank's empty.
 
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