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Oliver 1650 vs Allis Chalmers 185

F

Farmgirl83

New User
I am new to farming and I already own an Oliver 1650 and an Oliver 77. I have been given the option to give the 2 tractors I have to get an AC 185. It has 3000 hrs and has been owned by a tractor repair man. I've seen the tractor, it looks good, paint is faded due to sun, tires almost new, starts up, basically no problems.

Is this a wise decision to trade 2 tractors for 1?

Any advice is appreciated!
 
The 1650 has a good reputation in general. Does your 1650 have problems? The 185 has a pretty good reputation among AC people but the PTO control relative to what is
called a Power Director is out of the ordinary and may affect your ability to run the 185. Unless the Olivers need a lot of repairs I would stick with them.
 
I own and run both a 1650 Oliver and an AC 185,if you need more horse power the 185 has it over the 1650.185 has better and stronger hydraulics,better hydrastic steering,a high/low range
set up that will hold back in low range while the Oliver will coast in low range.You may not like the way the PTO and the power director work on the 185 its different you need to drive the 185 and see how you like it.I grew up using the AC system so its 2nd nature to me.As far as my 1650 its a great tractor and I like it a lot.To decide between the two condition of each one would be
the main thing,plus if its a late model 1650 with direct injection that is a positive for the 1650.If the 1650 is a gasser I'd definitely go with the 185.Of course what I'd do is just buy the
185 and have all 3.(LOL)Its all what you need/like really.
 

My Oliver 1650 needs a new injection pump. We haven't even been able to run it yet because the pump was locked up. It was taken out and brought up to a diesel repair shop but they said it would be around $1000-1900. So we need a new pump and a new keyway.

I'm afraid once I get the new pump in etc that there may be other problems.
 
1,000 dollars I could see depending on where you live but 1,900 dollars sounds awfully expensive. Anyways, it puts a different light on it if other problems lay ahead
potentially. Previously, I thought you had been around the 1650 previous to the pump failing to know the tractor. A lot of guys around here are not fans of AC but there were
185's around back in the day and other than the PTO- Power Director issue I never heard much in the way of negativity on them. Like TF said just a different setup to be
learned. Some guys learn a brand and have trouble operating a different brand while others can run anything under the sun without issue. All that said I would feel better
looking at perhaps a different Oliver but then again the AC is right close by for inspection and demonstration.
 
The Olivers you see at shows once in a while, never see an Allis of that model. Oliveers seem to have more parts support than what I hear on AC. And as scarce as they are with what I hear on Oliver parts I would keep the Oliver. At that time if I was considering a new tractor AC would not have been in consideration and Oliver over a Deere or IH. Who ever has the AC and is considering a trade like that knows the value of the Olivers way exceeds the value of the AC. Or they would not be considering it.
 
The way to get the Oliver to be worth more for a trade is to get it running. That aside there are quite a number of people who consider the 185 fairly desirable. I like Oliver's but to say a 1650 of a given condition is worth far more than a 185 in similar condition is not valid IMO.
 
Leroy That is strange you say that. Here in my part of the world Olivers are just not around. ACs ever where and good dealer support. I am 75 years old and to my knowledge there has never been an oliver dealer within 100 miles of my farm. Trading a non running 1650 and an old 77 for a running 185 would be a good deal for me.
 
1. Take a good look at what Traditional Farmer and NY 986 have to say.
2. I don't like a tractor that coasts in gear but I grew up on hills. In that situation they are dangerous.
3. I grow up on a farm with Massey Harris and AC (190XT, 200, 170, brother added D17 and 180 or 185) and I worked summers at a Canning Company driving Oliver 1555's, and 1655's. Both the AC and Oliver are great tractors in my mind.
4. I get the idea the mechanic is trying to help you go from one late forties/earlies fifties tractor to a much newer tractor with few hours. I don't get the idea he is trying to take advantage of you. You will have to decide that.
5. How about trading the Oliver 77 for the AC and some dollars to-boot. Better yet, work in repair of the Oliver by the mechanic into the deal. Then you end up with two great tractors. The mechanic gets a vintage/classic Oliver 77. Hopefully this mechanic will continue to be an advocate for you and help you keep these tractors running.
6. I cannot comment on parts availability. Both are orphan tractors, original companies no longer exist. I don't know how well the current foster companies support these models.
7. You better drive the AC. Can you shift it smoothly? They have a reputation of jumping out of gear after year of gear banging abuse. Make sure it does not jump out of gear when going down a grade.

My two cents.

Good Luck.

Paul
 
I have run both if these and I like my
Oliver's but the 185 AC has them whipped.
Better over all tractor, more HP. Etc.
 
(quoted from post at 19:18:54 05/07/19) 1. Take a good look at what Traditional Farmer and NY 986 have to say.
2. I don't like a tractor that coasts in gear but I grew up on hills. In that situation they are dangerous.
3. I grow up on a farm with Massey Harris and AC (190XT, 200, 170, brother added D17 and 180 or 185) and I worked summers at a Canning Company driving Oliver 1555's, and 1655's. Both the AC and Oliver are great tractors in my mind.
4. I get the idea the mechanic is trying to help you go from one late forties/earlies fifties tractor to a much newer tractor with few hours. I don't get the idea he is trying to take advantage of you. You will have to decide that.
5. How about trading the Oliver 77 for the AC and some dollars to-boot. Better yet, work in repair of the Oliver by the mechanic into the deal. Then you end up with two great tractors. The mechanic gets a vintage/classic Oliver 77. Hopefully this mechanic will continue to be an advocate for you and help you keep these tractors running.
6. I cannot comment on parts availability. Both are orphan tractors, original companies no longer exist. I don't know how well the current foster companies support these models.
7. You better drive the AC. Can you shift it smoothly? They have a reputation of jumping out of gear after year of gear banging abuse. Make sure it does not jump out of gear when going down a grade.

My two cents.

Good Luck.

Paul
Click to expand...

The mechanic wants both tractors and $500 for the AC...
 
I am also 75 and the Oliver and AC dealers around were just about out of bussiness by that time.
 
The owner of the AC wanting to trade to tractors that are not running for one that is tells me the owner of the AC thinks the Olivers are more valueable than the AC or he would not be wanting to do the trade. If he did not think they were more valuable he would not want them to repair for resale as he is a dealer as I read this. He thinks he can make more money doing that than just selling the AC to somebody, all about what the owner of the AC thinks of it and to trade one good tractor for 2 non runners he has to have a plan that includs the Olivers being more valuable.
 
In my area a 185 in good condition will sell as good or better than any other tractor of that age,a 175 will sell very well too.The Olivers will sell pretty good but a 1650 normally won't touch a 185 in selling price.
 
What is the history on the 1650? Do you know where it came from? Widefront or narrow front? Does it have the three speed or two speed secondary transmision (over/under)? What are its tires like?

On the mechanic, is he someone who likes to take tractors with problems and fix them and resell them?

Get another quote on the diesel pump repair/replacement.

What part of the country are you in (generally)? Are there other Oliver tractors around, or AC?

 
So how well do you know this 'mechanic'? You might want to make friends with another mechanic to check out the other mechanics 185. AC 185's weren't without their own issues like has been said jumping out of gear, rear-end problems, and if it's a diesel like the 1650 ... it will also eventually need an injector pump rebuild/replacement -- which may be sooner rather than later. If the tractor has the jumping-out-of-gear problem, there is a way to make it happen. The mechanic selling the tractor may be able to run it without it happening. Then later you'll find out the bad news. The 185 also has a non-synchro transmission which can make it a handful when hauling a heavy load. Just saying, look before you leap. You could also find a reputable service manager at a local dealer who knows about antique tractors and get the 185 checked out.
 
It is not what we think about any of the tractors but what the mechanic thinks. Here he has this AC to get rid of. He sees a chance to get 2 tractors ans some money to boot. But then he knows the 2 tractors he is trying to get will require averaging out what the repair quotes are to $1,500 so he has the value of the AC plus the $1,550 repair cost to sell those olivers. Do you think he is going to sell those Olivers at a $1,500 loss or do you believe he thinks the Olivers are worth enough more to cover him putting in the value of the AC plus $1,500 and sell them for the value of the AC. BIG ANSWER IS NO, He will not take a loss like that so he thinks he can resell them after running for the $1,500 more than the AC so if he can do that witch way are either one worth more. It comes down to what he thinks he can sell the repaired Olivers for. Same price as the AC or LOOSE a lot of money. DON'T think he plans on doing that so he thinks he can get that much more for the Olivers to make money on them. It is all what the mechanick thinks he can make money on and having the price of the repair of the Olivers on top of his cost of the AC do you finally understand why the Olivers are worth more. You would not intententally put money into something with planes to loose that money. And if what you are saying the AC is worth more then he would be planning on loosing a big chunk of money. So what he thinks the Olivers are worth is only reason for him to consider a deal like that if he doesn't think the Olivers are worth more. Don't consider your likes or dislikes of either tractor but just how you would want to make or loose money on the deal, AC worth more or Olivers and plan on loosing money by getting the olivers?
 
It comes down to if the mechanic thinks he can take BOTH OLivers and put the repaire in and then sell both Olivers for more proffit than he can get by just holding on to the AC untill somebody wants it without a trade that would make the mechanic lay out money without him having a plan to get his money back and make a profit and that has to include him and only him thinking the pair of Olivers would be worth more to him than the AC. He might be considering the 77 being worth more than the 1650.
 
(quoted from post at 00:59:33 05/08/19) The owner of the AC wanting to trade to tractors that are not running for one that is tells me the owner of the AC thinks the Olivers are more valueable than the AC or he would not be wanting to do the trade. If he did not think they were more valuable he would not want them to repair for resale as he is a dealer as I read this. He thinks he can make more money doing that than just selling the AC to somebody, all about what the owner of the AC thinks of it and to trade one good tractor for 2 non runners he has to have a plan that includs the Olivers being more valuable.
Click to expand...


The Oliver 77 runs and has no issues.
 
Never owned an oliver so I cannot say what your tractors are valued or shape, I do own an AC 185, love it, great mid size tractor
would easily handling most chores, again check the gears, some people grind the gears and they will eventually start to pop out of
gear, if he has been good to the tractor this should not be a problem.
 

General statement to everyone. This mechanic does this for a living. He is the mechanic around this area in Illinois that fixes peoples equipment and tractors. He also buys tractors that have issues and sells them. That is why I'm asking the questions because it seems odd to trade my 2 teactors and money for 1 tractor that is not a big brand around here. Deere and International is what is around here.
I think I'm gonna fix the 1650 and go from there...
 
Apparently no one knows the condition of the 1650 other than it needs an injection pump.Beyond that it could need nothing but then again it could need a major engine overhaul,hydra power
might not work who knows.Its a gamble.So she can trade and get a tractor that runs and operates and can ID any problem or spend the money to get the injection pump fixed and take her chances.Might have a good usable tractor with the 1650 or might have a money pit that needs more to fix than its worth.So the mechanic is gambling too with the trade.
 
So really, you have ONE running tractor and a potential salvage machine.

The option is to spend $1000-1900 on an injection pump and there's a good chance more is wrong with the tractor, OR cut your losses and for $500, trade for a running 185.

What you have to keep in mind is this guy is ONLY making this offer because he's getting the better part of the deal. That can mean one of two things, either he thinks he can fix the 1650 cheap, OR there is a potential major problem with the Allis. He is not making it out of the kindness of his heart.
 
True but the mechanic may be able to fix something cheap that it would cost her a lot of money to fix.I've bought and traded for tractors with major issues and fixed them cheap because I had parts and parts tractors to help make repairs.The sellers would have had to pony up big buck$ to get done what I did.
 
Total numbers of Oliver built acording to tractor data indicate about 68,000 of the Olivers built against about 15,000 of the AC so witch one are they more likely to continue making parts for A tractor with over 4 times as many made than the other. This explains why never see an AC of that model even at shows.
 
(quoted from post at 13:41:41 05/08/19) It is not what we think about any of the tractors but what the mechanic thinks. Here he has this AC to get rid of. He sees a chance to get 2 tractors ans some money to boot. But then he knows the 2 tractors he is trying to get will require averaging out what the repair quotes are to $1,500 so he has the value of the AC plus the $1,550 repair cost to sell those olivers. Do you think he is going to sell those Olivers at a $1,500 loss or do you believe he thinks the Olivers are worth enough more to cover him putting in the value of the AC plus $1,500 and sell them for the value of the AC. BIG ANSWER IS NO, He will not take a loss like that so he thinks he can resell them after running for the $1,500 more than the AC so if he can do that witch way are either one worth more. It comes down to what he thinks he can sell the repaired Olivers for. Same price as the AC or LOOSE a lot of money. DON'T think he plans on doing that so he thinks he can get that much more for the Olivers to make money on them. It is all what the mechanick thinks he can make money on and having the price of the repair of the Olivers on top of his cost of the AC do you finally understand why the Olivers are worth more. You would not intententally put money into something with planes to loose that money. And if what you are saying the AC is worth more then he would be planning on loosing a big chunk of money. So what he thinks the Olivers are worth is only reason for him to consider a deal like that if he doesn't think the Olivers are worth more. Don't consider your likes or dislikes of either tractor but just how you would want to make or loose money on the deal, AC worth more or Olivers and plan on loosing money by getting the olivers?
Click to expand...

Leroy, for the love of all that's holy, please read this.

When a bolt is not tight, it's loose. With two o's.

When your favorite team doesn't win, they lose. With one o.
 
(quoted from post at 06:59:13 05/08/19)
Leroy, for the love of all that's holy, please read this.

When a bolt is not tight, it's loose. With two o's.

When your favorite team doesn't win, they lose. With one o.
Click to expand...
:)
 
Thanks for responding with what you are thinking after all these responses. It is always nice to hear the final verdict. Thanks again and I suspect you are on the right track.

Paul
 

Got a text today that he would just trade the 2 tractors for the AC. I just feel like something isn't right.
 
(quoted from post at 14:22:29 05/09/19) Nothing like getting the real important stuff straight(LOL)
Click to expand...

Even asked if he still wanted to help us fix it. No reply back.
My husband is a diesel mechanic so it won't be hard for him to fix with some instructions but we also had the same mechanic come out and try to work on our excavator. We thought we were acquaintances at this point. I guess we thought wrong.
They must be worth something...
 
Good thinking. He knows how to make a lot of money off those Olivers that he cannot make with that Allis. And that is putting the money into the Oliver that needs the repair. And there was some reason AC only sold less than 15,000 of those tractors close to 68,000 Olivers sold acording to tractor data, so over 4 Olivers to one AC, WHY.
 
(quoted from post at 20:15:13 05/09/19)
Got a text today that he would just trade the 2 tractors for the AC. I just feel like something isn't right.
Click to expand...
Go with your gut. No one will protect your interests better than you.
 
All of you have been absolutely amazing to my help me get to my final decision. I appreciate all of your time and thank you for all the advice. I did go with my gut after all. Which does make me feel better especially since I practice medicine daily have always go with my gut.

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D
 
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