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Gasoline vs. Diesel

L

LJS30

Member
I know guys this has been discussed many times. However besides being a cool topic to discuss I am in a position of giving advice to a prospective hobby farmer. His question was whether he should go with a Ford 9N gasoline type tractor or perhaps with another brand with a diesel. Being that I have an 861 gasoline and several Massey Ferguson diesels I can see the benefits of both. With that stated here are his plans. He has about three acres which he plans to do some small planting of corn and some fruit trees. The rest he plans on maintaining with a pto three point mower. What should he go with in your opinions?
 
Just whatever fits his budget and he?s comfortable using. 3
acres at the end of the year plus mowing grass won?t add up
to a very big difference in dollars spent on gas or diesel.
 

Lots of options as for as brands.
Personally I would discourage him from the 9N.
Since you've mentioned two Ford's and I'm a ford owner myself I'd stick with that brand.
You have a 861 gas with 5 spd trans and live pto, this would be a excellent tractor for a first time tractor owner.
Personally I'd recommend he consider a newer 65-74 2000 or 3000 diesel.
 
The sequence of the Ford "N" series was 9N, 2N, and lastly, 8N.

The 8N has a much better 3-point hitch then the older models (has position control), a much-improved steering gear, and a 4-speed "constant-mesh" transmission vs. the 3-speed "sliding gear" transmission of the 9N and 2N, and yet it's a pretty primitive tractor compared to more modern machines.

NO live hydraulics, NO live PTO, no power steering.

I have owned several 8N's, and have no issues with them for what they are, but for someone getting into tractors to use, I'd highly recommend something MUCH newer.
 

If he wants to run any PTO equipment then the last thing he wants is a 9n. That's one step above no PTO. Gas or diesel on 3 acres doesn't matter. I agree with the poster that suggested a more modern compact utility tractor that can mount a loader. We're log past the days when a "small tractor" meant an N series Ford or a Farmall A or C. Most younger people today aren't going to put up with what we all did 30, 40, 50 years ago. Better to steer him to what he's going to probably end up with anyway from the start. Alternatively, it's only 3 acres! I handled more than that with a 1950's Gravely and 1964 Wheelhorse!
 

If I can get my electrical issue squared away I plan on having him come to my place to try this 861 out.
 
My advice is to buy something that has live PTO and live hydraulics. Live PTO makes running a mower so much easier. Power steering is also good. Something else to consider is whether he will use it in the winter or not. Diesels are harder to start in cold weather than gasoline engines. Generally they will need plugged in for a couple of hours or you'll need to use starting fluid. That can be a hassle to plan around.
 
It depends almost entirely upon how much money he is willing to spend.

We can all recommend a new, modern CUT but such things cost MUCH more than does a 9/2/8N or 860/1.

Dean
 

Depends if the topic is #1 1960 s era tech ,#2 2000-2007 tech or #3 2019 tech . Then which era of tech vs which era of tech and is the comparison being held in the 1960 s , 2000-2007 or in 2019.
Usually someone is comparing a 1960 s gas tractor or a 1980 s carbureted gas truck with a non lockup automatic . To a 2000 era diesel farm tractor or 2000 era diesel pickup. While claiming what is best in the year 2019.
 

What in diesel form would be equivalent to my 861 which I hope to let him try out? I have a MF165 to also let him try....
 
(quoted from post at 16:15:51 05/06/19) I know guys this has been discussed many times. However besides being a cool topic to discuss I am in a position of giving advice to a prospective hobby farmer. His question was whether he should go with a Ford 9N gasoline type tractor or perhaps with another brand with a diesel. Being that I have an 861 gasoline and several Massey Ferguson diesels I can see the benefits of both. With that stated here are his plans. He has about three acres which he plans to do some small planting of corn and some fruit trees. The rest he plans on maintaining with a pto three point mower. What should he go with in your opinions?
Click to expand...
A 9n has about 12 hp. The 861, over 60. Not really a fair comparison.
 
All good advise.

All I would add, stay away from the mid 90's and up with electronics and emissions.

Stay away from the no name China/India/3rd world tractors. Research the parts and reliability first.
 
A 9N is around 22 h.p. (don't remember
exactly, and am not taking the time to
look it up right now) and an 861 is 45
h.p. It might hit 60 if measured at the
flywheel. No, not a fair comparison,
but closer than your numbers would
suggest.
 
(quoted from post at 18:03:26 05/06/19) A 9N is around 22 h.p. (don't remember
exactly, and am not taking the time to
look it up right now) and an 861 is 45
h.p. It might hit 60 if measured at the
flywheel. No, not a fair comparison,
but closer than your numbers would
suggest.
Click to expand...
I used tractordata.com to gather that information. Use it as you see fit.
 
I have a 9N in the collection. I could not recommend any N Ford to a person who was seriously considering any farming. Even as a hobby. Not even for a large garden. I also would not recommend any tractor that the person does not have a fair shot at repairing themselves when it breaks.
 
If he has to ask the question it doesn?t .really matter
for that many acres and that kinda work he won?t
know the difference
 
Reading some responses on this and other earlier posts regarding the N series Fords makes me wonder. How in the world did anybody ever farm
with those? With all the negative replies about how useless they are (and yes for sure compared to newer and more powerful tractors they
might be), those early farmers must have been miracle workers to get anything done with those little Fords. From what I read elsewhere, a
lot of people love them and still think they're a great little tractor.
 
David, I agree, they certainly were. And when you think of it, they still are. If you compare a 1942 car to one today, the difference between them is far greater than between the little Fords and small tractors today I think. Still a whole lot of them being used today so I guess that really tells the story.
 
I hear your point, but I use my modern equipment more and more, the antiques are becoming parade tractors.

It is just way more convenient.
 
Here?s real data from a 2013 Ford super duty gas
one Ton hauling 16,000 it?s dually regular bed
regular cab 6 speed on the interstate truck weighs
8500
cvphoto22227.png


No trailer freeway

cvphoto22228.jpg



My 98 diesel with 289000 miles gets 11 mpg at 27000 gvw on the two lane hills
And 16 empty weighs 9780 no trailer 4 door long bed
 
The only people bad mouthing tractor data are the guys who hate when it shows one brand of tractor did just as well on fuel as their favorite brand which according to the yt Nebraska test coffee shop farmers association used half as much fuel as the previous one being bad mouthed
 
TractorData figures are correct, but the figures are not being rather confusingly in this thread. 12 is the 75% rated drawbar rating on the 9N while 60 is the gross engine power on the 861.

A more accurate comparison would be 23.6 versus 44.7 (maximum belt power, gas engine).
 
(quoted from post at 13:26:39 05/06/19) Tractor data.com is NOT to be trusted.

Dean
Click to expand...

I agree Tractordata may contain some mistakes but keep in mind Tractordata contains a lot of valuable,correct information on a lot of different tractor brands & models!!
 
Also, what other diesels does he have? I stuck w/ gas since nothing else on my little spread eats diesel and I'm not running it that many hours a year. That, and winter starts, is why I stuck w/ gas.
 
Tell him to get an appropriately sized Kubota. They seem to last forever so used would be OK except they tend to be high priced
used tractors for obvious reasons. If he can swing it, get a new one. If he gets an old used Ford or whatever, he'll be tinkering
with it more than he'll be running it. You doubt? Just read the stuff that comes on this forum.
 
not sure how much he wants to spend but for no more than he needs find a early 70s tractor. it most likely will have live pto and hydraulics. power steering is nice to have and is a good re sell point. stay with the gas motor. a lot cheaper to maintain if you have a problem. the diesels will have more power and if properly maintained will last longer but with what he needs it for a gas wood be better. no n ford tractors cause they will cause you problems and pulling a brush hog can be dangerous. I have had 3 of them but no more. trick is to find one that some one has had for a spell and maintained it. good luck .
 
I know this is not comparing apples and apples, but I have a gasoline Farmall H, 152 cid, makes 24 hp. I also have a Massey Ferguson 240-S, same displacement of 152 cid, makes 48 hp. To me that is interesting.
 

I don't see where you can say a diesel is higher maintenance than a gas tractor.
Went thru the engine and fuel system on my 69 Ford 4000 in 2000 went 18 trouble free years before the top cover gasket on the inj pump started leaking.
5000 hrs on my 89 Ford 6610, no work on the fuel system other than filter changes.
A friend's 2630 and 2955 JD's have never had anything but fuel filters replaced on the fuel system.

Clean fuel and regular filter service is the life of any fuel system, gas or diesel.
 
What is exactly is a hobby farm? It that what someone from the city calls 2 or 3 acres in the country?
I have 2 and 3 acres yards in the country.

To answer your question, something that small doesn't require a diesel. I use a Farmall C and a Jubilee
to mow my yards 2 and 3 acre yards. Both have a 6 ft finish mower.

I would recommend finding an old gasser that someone has overhauled and has more money in it than it
worth. Good tires are important too.
 

Well like a hobby and not necessarily for profit or profession. For fun...enjoyment.....good times.etc.
 
Your 6610 is 2 years newer than mine, had to rebuild the pump @ 2300 hours, PO apparently did not service it,.
 
I'd be more concerned with things like a live PTO, live hydraulics, dual-range trans and maybe power steering. As to gas versus diesel?
Depends on several factors. Gas is a lot easier to work on if you do your own repairs. How about fuel cost? If you cannot buy off-road or
farm diesel and you pay full price for highway diesel - no huge advantage over gasoline for small time use. Then there is winter starting and
operation. If it gets real cold where you are, gas is much nicer to have. I cannot imagine choosing a 9N for anything. If you want a Ford,
get something with some added features like you can find in a 2000. Even an old Ferguson TO35 Deluxe has much better features then an 8N or
a 9N or a Jubilee/600 series.

Keep in mind too that parts are getting scarce for some of the older diesels. So are the skilled mechanics that actually know how to work on
them properly.
 
The situation with older tractors these days is a lot better tractors that have power steering,good hydraulics,LPTO, etc than the old N Fords can be had for cheap.So why mess with one of them when you can get a lot better more useful tractor for a couple hundred more dollar$?
 
(quoted from post at 12:18:07 05/06/19) The only people bad mouthing tractor data are the guys who hate when it shows one brand of tractor did just as well on fuel as their favorite brand which according to the yt Nebraska test coffee shop farmers association used half as much fuel as the previous one being bad mouthed
Click to expand...


LOL have to agree 100%.

For the OP. I would look at something newer and a little bigger than a 9N. With the acreage? Gas or diesel is a toss up. On the older diesels? Like a MF135 or similar sized IH, JD or Ford? A well cared for diesel can run well over 10,000 hours with little more than regular maintenance. A gasser will require a little more in tune ups and such through years of operation running the same number of hours. Other side of the coin is that many people can perform simple repairs on a gasser where in a diesel they are way over their heads.

Loaders are nice too but you really want power steering with a loader. Good hydraulics are nice to have. I've run mowers with and without I/live PTO. Trust me. You want live as a minimum and IPTO is even better.

If the guy is really bent on owning a Ford N? Convince him he needs 2 tractors. One for work and the N for play.

Rick
 
Not true.

Tractordata relies on user supplied date, which is usually only someone's guess.

When important, I look up the relevant NE test.

Dean
 
Gas or diesel, doesn't matter on three
acres or even (in my case) 80. I run a
Farmall 300 gas and a Farmall cub, and
take care of 10 acres of truck garden, 2
acres of orchard and 30 acres of hay
ground. The big one takes 2 to 3 gallon
per hour plowing the big plots and baling
hay or brush hogging. It gets better
mowing hay and planting. The cub just
seems to make gas lol. Honestly, I seem
to fill it up about three times a year.
Mowing with a 5' sickle, harrowing and
cultivating all seem to take about 1/2
gallon per hour or less. On 3 acres, fuel
for a cub or even a 300 would be
negligible. 25 gallons would get a man
through most of a year doing whatever you
wanted to. Its my opinion that live
power, live hydraulics, and power
steering are much more important than
what type of fuel you choose to burn. The
perfect rig for a small place would be a
3000 Ford or 300 IH utility. Gas or
diesel, who cares. As long as it has the
features mentioned above, it'll be just
about perfect. Just leave off the N
Fords, the H Farmalls, and the B John
Deeres. You'll thank me later.

Mac
 
My opinion: if your livelihood depends on a tractor that's expected to start and run every day, buy a modern diesel. Otherwise, get whatever floats your boat.

The 9N would not be my first choice. Not much power and no life hydraulics, let alone live PTO. Your 861 would be up to the task, but it is still a 60 year old tractor.
 
I don't understand why so many folks say
you got to have live pto.
Live pto is way over rated.
For tillage, back blading, skidding
logs, etc the pto is not even used so
it's immaterial what type of pto you
have. Given the choice I would take
power steering over lpto any time.
Live hydraulics is a different matter.
I would skip the Ns for that reason
alone as they don't have it.
Also, the 8Ns have the most ridiculously
FAST reverse speed ever put in a
tractor.
I suggest he look for a Ford 3000 with
the good options on it.
 

Well, If you scan through a few thousand threads of people looking for help with their old tractor, Probably 2/3 of them will be for gasoline engine starting problems, and I bet that 2/3 of those would be for ignition or carburetor problems, both of which you eliminate with a diesel. There is enough reason for me right there to look for a used compact diesel. I am a Ford guy, but I have had a Kubota along with the Fords for the past 33 years. My 2001 is 30 HP, and while it doesn't have quite the weight or power of an 841, it would be adequate for your friend's needs. A few people will complain of diesel smell. My Kubota does not smell. Some people will warn of hard starting with a diesel. My Kubota has never had any help to start in the winter, and it is my snow removal tractor. Some guys will warn of the cost of injection pump repair, yet the liklihood of needing it for a compact diesel with less than 10,000 hours is minimal. The best thing about them is cost of ownership. My first one lost only 10% of its value in 12 years, so financing one makes much more sense than financing a car or truck.
 
>I don't understand why so many folks say you got to have live pto.
>Live pto is way over rated.

No, live PTO isn't essential, but it sure makes the tractor a lot more capable and functional. No, you don't need it to mow, but it's sure handy when you get into heavy brush. You don't need it for digging post holes (where live hydraulics are a must), but it sure makes things simpler since you can creep the tractor forward or back to keep the auger vertical. Having operated tractors with and without live PTO, I would never buy one without it.
 
Does the hobby farmer has any mechanical skills?
Can he fix old tractors? Old Ford N tractors are more likely to be gas.
If not he better buy something from a dealer, which is likely to be a diesel.
If he buys from a dealer, he will also need a trailer to haul tractor to dealer when tractor breaks down.
 
Live PTO is "overrated?" I do not see it that way. When running something like a rotary brush cutter, tiller, snowblower - having a live PTO is a HUGE improvement over one that stops every time you push down on the clutch pedal. No comparison.

I have a Ford 641 that mows trails in the Michigan UP. I absolutely hate it. The non-live PTO is miserable. Every time I stop the mower stops and drives me nuts. I cannot back up and mow short extensions to trails since the mower does not even start to turn until I let the clutch out.
 
No smell to diesel? Just the diesel fuel spilled at the pump I cannot stand, have to look for the pump with gasoline only. And I hat the sound of a diesel. I would not want one. If I found a tractor that was what I wanted otherwise I would look for a gas engine and replace the dirty stinking diesel before use. Years ago was using borrowed diesel in morning before I went in to work, was dot feeling good, when I got to work they said I was green and wantred to take me direct to Dr.
 
That is not correct.

I am TractorData. While I do accept user information, everything is sourced. I have thousands of dealer sales books, operator manuals, and parts microfiche. It is not Wikipedia where anyone can just write whatever they want.

If there is a question about the data, my email is on every page.
 
The N Fords, the H Farmals and the B John Deere are all good tractors when used for what they are designed for and that is not his use. For his use an 860-861 or even a 660-661 would be good. He needs the live pto and the two stage PTO would be safer for him than the totaly live PTO and at times live hydrolicks are a hindress and not a plus. I have never had the 2 stage clutch but would have prefered it over the independant that I had but 64 was last year for it and I had a 65.
 
To each his own: I don't think Live can be beat for putting in a fence. My 3000 has Live and I love it for that and surely better than transmission PTO like is on my 2000.
 
Dad bought my 44 2N 75 years ago this month and was his only tractor untill 57 when he bought a 38 John Deere A. That ford has done everything on the farm from all plowing and tillage, planting and cultivaton, harvesting. Pulled the engine powered baler, both engine and PTO powered combines, corn picker, forage harvestor, cordwood saw and a lot of miles to elevator with wagon loades of grain. Had both front and rear loaders on it. Manure spreader. 57 when he bought the Deere is when I started driving the tractor so then both were out plowing at same time. Same size plow and matching round for round. So I do know what they can do.
 
Your reply is exactly the point I was trying to make Leroy, some others didn't pick up on what I was trying to say. If this goes to the YT court, I will call you as a witness .... ha! Where did you grow up and live nowadays? I'm in central Alberta, Canada.
 
(quoted from post at 08:30:07 05/07/19) The N Fords, the H Farmals and the B John Deere are all good tractors when used for what they are designed for and that is not his use. For his use an 860-861 or even a 660-661 would be good. He needs the live pto and the two stage PTO would be safer for him than the totaly live PTO and at times live hydrolicks are a hindress and not a plus. I have never had the 2 stage clutch but would have prefered it over the independant that I had but 64 was last year for it and I had a 65.
Click to expand...

64 was the last year for what?
If your taking about live pto with the 2 stage clutch, 64 was the last year they used in in a Ford 4000 but it was available on the 2-3000 models and saw continued use thru the 3600 and 3610 models till 1983 when the 3610 was replaced by the 3910.
 

If the operator is so mechanically inept to maintain the carb or ignition system on a gasser. They are also in way over their heads with a diesel . They will have pump problems from installing a contaminated new filter . Have cold weather waxing problems and may pour in a fuel additive that is not pump compatible.
They will also be hammering the diesel with ether as they won t know enough to plug in a block heater .
 

b&d
I've been custom farming/baling hay since '87. I've owned numerous diesel tractors putting unknown hours on them & have yet had to have an inj pump repaired. A lot depends on how clean one keeps the fuel that goes into the tank.
 
You're really hunting me down TF, I can't seem to escape your predatory nature. You're either rattling my chain or missing the intent of my message. Maybe a bit of both?
 
(quoted from post at 06:19:08 05/07/19) No smell to diesel? Just the diesel fuel spilled at the pump I cannot stand, have to look for the pump with gasoline only. And I hat the sound of a diesel. I would not want one. If I found a tractor that was what I wanted otherwise I would look for a gas engine and replace the dirty stinking diesel before use. Years ago was using borrowed diesel in morning before I went in to work, was dot feeling good, when I got to work they said I was green and wantred to take me direct to Dr.
Click to expand...

Leroy, my Kubota doesn't make smoke or smell, my Fords though are another story. Have you never seen a babe driving a Ford Power Stroke Or a Chevy Duramax with the sticker in the back window that says how the smell of diesel makes her feel? I have always liked the smell of diesel fuel and smoke, and I like the looks of it when it is a big black cloud blowing fifty feet in the air from my Ford 9000.
 
Thought all the Fords 65 up were the independant. 4000 and 5000 all there were around here. And those were what I had. Very few 7000. Others too new not sold around here.
 
If I get around one of those on the road I have to close all windows and turn any intake air off to keep that stink out of my vehical and I hat it when they are blowing so much black smoke it is like driving into a thick fog that you cannot see where you are going.
 
(quoted from post at 12:53:33 05/07/19)
b&d
I've been custom farming/baling hay since '87. I've owned numerous diesel tractors putting unknown hours on them & have yet had to have an inj pump repaired. A lot depends on how clean one keeps the fuel that goes into the tank.
Click to expand...

It goes without saying that you know and care more than the person who can not handle a carb and ignition system .
 
C H, I am from the northwest corner of Ohio, USA. And when your bosses when you go into get ready to go to work and they say you are green and want to take you to emergency room at hospital take head. If they want to kill themselves let them do it but do not try to kill the rest of us. If I had been on that diesel for anouther hour I would have had to have been taken to the hospital if not the funeral home. I realised it later but not then.
 

I didn't read through all the posts. So, just what I'd do. I have an old Ford Jubilee, which is similarish to an 8nish type tractor. Although it's fine, I don't care for them that much for, well, doing much. But, it didn't have enough power for what I use, I preferred using 520/530/630 Deere to that when given the choice, better gearing etc. Even with a very small lot of ground like that, and if looking at only older tractors, and because I've used them extensively, I'd like something like a 2510/3020 Deere. More gears are handier. I'd also like Oliver options. Not really a fan of older IH options, just me, I know they are good, don't care for the driving and shifting compared to others of the age.

Gas vs. diesel, I'll pick diesel every time, but again, that's just me. I plug a diesel in, and at -20 it will start every single day like it needs to to hay cows. I used gas tractors in the field for mowing and raking. Of course, not the cleanest conditions, not that careful, but things like carb needing a quick go through or points or something seemed to be needed tinkered with. Not too often, but diesels for me "just go", if in good shape.
 
You pretty much summed up my rationale for diesels only....now that I can afford them......and I seldom smell diesel fuel fumes, and don't recall the last
time I smelled diesel exhaust...diesel fuel in in sealed tanks and I do not worry about how long it's been there.
 
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