Valiant Farmer
Member
Just a quick question...the International 483 has the same amount of cylinders, and the same bore and stroke as the David Brown 850 and 25D, yet the DB's are 35 hp, and the IH is 46 hp. Any ideas???
- Thread starter Valiant Farmer
- Start date
Bob Harvey
Well-known Member
Well, how do you get 900HP from a 2.4l V6 - LOTS of reasons ! ;^)
Steve@Advance
Well-known Member
That's a very common practice.
The mfg builds an engine, a very costly endeavor. Then intentionally derates it with low compression, small carb, small cam, restricted manifolds, and juggle the numbers a little.
This does a couple of things, it gets the newly designed engine off to a good start because it runs smooth, and runs a long, long time with few problems.
Then as the next models start coming out, the engineers begin to open it up just a little, improve the performance without having to develop a complete new engine.
Eventually they start increasing the displacement, pushing the limits until things start failing, or technology, emissions laws, and competition bring about the need for a new design.
Then the process starts over...
The mfg builds an engine, a very costly endeavor. Then intentionally derates it with low compression, small carb, small cam, restricted manifolds, and juggle the numbers a little.
This does a couple of things, it gets the newly designed engine off to a good start because it runs smooth, and runs a long, long time with few problems.
Then as the next models start coming out, the engineers begin to open it up just a little, improve the performance without having to develop a complete new engine.
Eventually they start increasing the displacement, pushing the limits until things start failing, or technology, emissions laws, and competition bring about the need for a new design.
Then the process starts over...
Valiant Farmer
Member
Thanks for that! These are both diesel engines, but the David Browns were built 1953 - 1965 era, while the IH 483 was built in 1983!
Now that explains why the DB diesel engines are such good engines!
Thanks for that!
Joshua
Now that explains why the DB diesel engines are such good engines!
Thanks for that!
Joshua
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
Power equals torque times rpm. So there are two ways to increase horsepower: increase the torque or increase the rpm. Assuming the tractors are rated at roughly the same engine rpm, then the engine putting out more horsepower must be delivering more torque. And there are a lot of ways to increase torque: more fuel, increased compression ratio, better breathing, etc.
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
("Power equals torque times rpm.")/5252, simplified formula in ft-lbs. The thing I find fascinating is the different curves on different engines. Best one I remember was in my '60's era MF 35, 3 cyl Perkie, 1000 rpm peak. That thing actually climbed a fence post one day before I could react and get the clutch pushed. I'd still have it but the clutch was a bear and with a soft left knee joint I couldn't handle it.
dr sportster
Well-known Member
There is no law against a manufacturer claiming less power than the motor makes. Mercury outboards were truly 16 horsepower were rated at 10 horse to power the fastest boats on the lake.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
> Mercury outboards were truly 16 horsepower were rated at 10 horse to power the fastest boats on the lake.
Outboard manufacturers produce more than one horsepower rating for each of their motor displacements. Or at least they used to. I had a 140 Evinrude which was nearly identical to the 120. Checking the parts manual, I found all parts were identical for the two motors EXCEPT for the carburetor bodies. So the 120 was truly a derated motor with a smaller carb that limited the horsepower. Of course, the 140 was significantly more expensive than the nearly identical 120.
The "9.9" hp motors produced by various manufacturers are a special case: Many lakes restrict outboard motors to less than 10 horsepower, so the outboard makers started derating their 15 hp outboards to 9.9. I'm pretty sure they limit the horsepower in the 9.9s, lest they cannibalize sales of 15s.
Outboard manufacturers produce more than one horsepower rating for each of their motor displacements. Or at least they used to. I had a 140 Evinrude which was nearly identical to the 120. Checking the parts manual, I found all parts were identical for the two motors EXCEPT for the carburetor bodies. So the 120 was truly a derated motor with a smaller carb that limited the horsepower. Of course, the 140 was significantly more expensive than the nearly identical 120.
The "9.9" hp motors produced by various manufacturers are a special case: Many lakes restrict outboard motors to less than 10 horsepower, so the outboard makers started derating their 15 hp outboards to 9.9. I'm pretty sure they limit the horsepower in the 9.9s, lest they cannibalize sales of 15s.
dr sportster
Well-known Member
Mark --A book you might like is called IRON FIST about Carl Keikhaufer and the history of Mercury.
Oliver 500 Wa
Member
Different manufacturers rate their products differently. Some will state a power level that can be sustained at 100% duty cycle while others will state a higher power that can be achieved but only at lower duty cycle. In other words, peak power versus continuous power.
flying belgian
Well-known Member
When I bought my Case Farmall 65, the dealer wanted to sell me the 75 in the worst way. He had the 75 on his lot but would have to get a 65 from another dealer or wait until a new container load came from over seas. Well no other dealer in the country wanted to give theirs up so he said I would have to wait maybe months to get one. But the real reason was the 75 list for $2000 more. It is absolutely the same tractor. Same engine same chassis, same weight, same everything. I just wanted mine to rake hay, run auger, run small baler, pull bale wagons and I actually pulled a six row planter and six row cultivator. So I did not need the 10 more horsepower and was willing to wait months to save $2000. Dealer thought I was crazy to wait but I bought it in Dec. and didn't need it for anything over winter anyway.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
> Mark --A book you might like is called IRON FIST about Carl Keikhaufer and the history of Mercury.
I'll check it out. I don't know much about Kiekhaufer other than he started Mercury Marine. When I was in my teens our dad bought a ski boat with a Kiekhaufer-branded 100 hp Mercury outboard; must have been made in the sixties.
One book that sticks in my mind almost 50 years after I read it is "My Days with the Diesel" by Clessie Cummins. I just checked and it's long out of print. Did you know Cummins invented the Jake Brake? Or that he raced diesel-powered cars at Indy?
I'll check it out. I don't know much about Kiekhaufer other than he started Mercury Marine. When I was in my teens our dad bought a ski boat with a Kiekhaufer-branded 100 hp Mercury outboard; must have been made in the sixties.
One book that sticks in my mind almost 50 years after I read it is "My Days with the Diesel" by Clessie Cummins. I just checked and it's long out of print. Did you know Cummins invented the Jake Brake? Or that he raced diesel-powered cars at Indy?
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
I witnessed that back in the '50s. Mercury 10 hp Hurricanes, green and silver, 2 bladed prop would run circles around my dads 10 hp Scott Attwater.....soooooo envious!
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
That was common practice. Folks in my circles used to do just what you did in checking how to get to the higher HP. Sometimes it was just in the jets. Sometimes the carb tweaks and some intake reed valve changes (easily done) or manifold shapes, or exhaust porting where it wouldn't work all that well in trying to upgrade.
You are talking about the Merc. 1000, Phantom Black Lacquer, the first 100 hp 2 stroker on the American market.......one running dude.
Merc 2 strokers regularly put out 1 hp plus per Cu. In. displacement......the way they managed that was running high rpms. Where OMC had the cubes and ran around 4500 rpms, Merc didn't have the cubes but ran 6000.........as stated by a confirmed transplant from the OMC corral to the Merc.
Ported stainless steel props were a big plus for Mercs. It allowed them to get the rpms up in the "hole shot" making up for their small displacement and then once up and running, where rpms really mattered, they had the propeller pitch necessary to get on down the road. They did up their cubes by 500 CCs in their 150 V6 engines for Bass Boat applications to help in getting those stern heavy suckers up and on "the pad.
You are talking about the Merc. 1000, Phantom Black Lacquer, the first 100 hp 2 stroker on the American market.......one running dude.
Merc 2 strokers regularly put out 1 hp plus per Cu. In. displacement......the way they managed that was running high rpms. Where OMC had the cubes and ran around 4500 rpms, Merc didn't have the cubes but ran 6000.........as stated by a confirmed transplant from the OMC corral to the Merc.
Ported stainless steel props were a big plus for Mercs. It allowed them to get the rpms up in the "hole shot" making up for their small displacement and then once up and running, where rpms really mattered, they had the propeller pitch necessary to get on down the road. They did up their cubes by 500 CCs in their 150 V6 engines for Bass Boat applications to help in getting those stern heavy suckers up and on "the pad.
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