2510Paul Flame Rollout Investigation Update

I thought an update would be appropriate given all the help I received.

1. Crazy Horse was interested in our Gas Rates, see my bill below. You will have to convert to your units.

2. Grizz02, I checked the drain tubes from the white collection box in the picture to the pump on the floor outside the furnace box and it was very clean. I went back and looked at your comments only to discover I should have checked the tube at the bottom of the inducer fan. Another day. Sorry Grizz02.

3. I called the gas company and they had Supply Issues, pressure drops, during that cold spell in the Midwest, especially in Minnesota. They told me they had been asking people to set their thermostats down. I had heard that for Minnesota but no mention was made of Wisconsin. Anyway, they could not tell me if I experienced any pressure drops but also could not tell me if I did not.

3a. We did a loads add up and review of the meter/regulator. House is 80,000 btu, Garage is 75,000 btu, shed is 120,000 btu inputs. Meter is about 250,000-300,000 btu. Meters are temperature compensated but they could not tell me how low. So at -28F who knows. Bottom line, this summer I will get the next larger meter. The after dinner mint is my line to the house is half inch and may be undersized, about 50 - 70 feet. (Does anyone have a table? Comments?) We will see if the larger meter works next winter.

3b. My gas company was extremely helpful.

Paul

If the line is 1/2", it's way under.

You sure about the size?
Nat Gas Pipe Size

That's all that is on mine.

paul in the pic that shows the drain tube coming down from inducer I notice the water on the fitting , and the rust on the sheet metal , it looks in the pic that the the pvc tube is leaning back cause water to pool in that joint you might have to shorten the rubber tube so the pvc tube is headed down hill out the furnace and clamp it tight or reseal the pvc joint. does that sump pump just dump into an inside drain ? not outside where it could freeze

16 cents tax?? Any bill here is 13 PERCENT!! How much to run a pipeline up this way?

Ben

Wisconsin does not charge sales tax on gas or electricity used for residential purposes during the months of November through April.

The capacity of a gas pipe and/or gas meter depends on the pressure of the gas flowing through the pipe and/or meter.

The gas bill shows a pressure factor that suggests the gas is being metered at 2# pressure (rather than a more common pressure of 6" to 10" water column.) The pressure flowing through the 1/2" gas line MAY be considerably higher. The 1/2" gas pipe should be more than adequate if it is carrying 10# pressure, but is drastically undersized if it is only carrying 2# pressure. Someone in the gas utility will know the pressures in the gas mains. The customer service person answering phone calls may not be this person.

I don't know what size meter is installed, but seriously doubt that the meter is the cause of any low pressure. In my area, a 250 meter is the most common residential size, and it should have no problem handling the combined load---especially with a 2# pressure. The accuracy of the meter may suffer very slightly under extreme loads.

Steve in last pic it looks like 3/4 going into the fuel valve don't know if it goes the whole way and I agree 1/2 on low pressure system that has any length of run would be to small at start up / pressure vs. volume also we don't know what BTU unit paul has mine is 60,000 btu he might have 80 or more

Pull the white collection box out and flush it out with clean water, it is a trap to prevent exhaust gases from blowing out through the drain piping. These traps are prone to clogging up with dust and debris, causing water to back up into the draft inducer. That will cause your furnace to shut off due to an open pressure switch.

While you are doing this make certain all the tubing joints on/around that trap are sealed/clamped. I see a rusty spot underneath there that indicates water has been dripping somewhere in there.

Steve, I will collect more accurate measurements. I guessed it was half inch and the Gas Company Guy agreed and he took that back to the design group. I am not good at eyeballing pipe sizes. I will post a picture with measurement. It is flexible yellow tubing.

Thanks Steve.

Paul

One of these days, someone is going to standardize every measurement unit on the planet into one system .... ha, very unlikely. There are cubic feet, Therms, and Gigajoules (actually more if you want to really get into it) for measuring natural gas (like BTU's and so on).

Well, it looks like to me (after web searching on converting) that one US Therm (100 cubic feet) = approximately 0.1 GJ (Gigajoule) which we use up here. So your bill says you are paying $0.45 USD per Therm or $4.50 USD per Gigajoule.

Convert that into Canadian dollars .... you'd be paying about $6.00 CDN for a Gigajoule. Up here the gas is pretty cheap (assuming my math makes sense and my conversions are correct), we are currently paying (depending on the month) anywhere from $1.50 to $2.50 CDN for a Gigajoule.

Now keep in mind, about 99% of other stuff we consume costs a lot more than where you live. Beaver pelts are even expensive up here ..... ha! And hockey players in the NHL get their millions paid in US dollars.

Oh boy, lots of great comments.

1. As I told Steve I will get a better measurement on the pipe.

2. The meter is a 250, it is feeding a 75,000 btu load, a 120,000 btu load, and a 80,000 btu load. The meter regulates to 2#. The Gas Company Person told me this is unique to Wisconsin. The temperature was -28F. See 3a above. TomIn, given all this do you still feel the meter should be adequate?

3. I will revisit the drain tubes and the white collection box as commented on by OH Boy and Grizz02.

4. The Sump Pump pumps across the basement into a PVC pipe that runs outside 4-5' underground past the garage and out a steep hillside. That pipe also collects the water softener, and three down spouts. Once outside the basement it is 4" PVC. The outlet of that pipe froze up once several years ago when we had a lot of cold weather. I know what to look for if it freezes, I did not see any evidence of that this year.

5. Yes, the gas line transitions just outside the house/basement from the suspected half inch to the 3/4" going the rest of the way to the furnace.

Thanks everyone.

Paul

Thanks Crazy Horse for sharing all your work. Wow, I am surprised at the difference in price. Paul

Last time my induction blower tried pumping water, I removed the tee that connected the blower housing to the black drain hose and found this:

(quoted from post at 21:17:18 02/04/19) Last time my induction blower tried pumping water, I removed the tee that connected the blower housing to the black drain hose and found this:

Click to expand...

The strange thing is that it apparently doesn't trip either of two pressure switches that (hopefully) monitor airflow by measuring differential pressures the purpose of which is to indicate a blocked intake, exhaust,or malfunctioning/waterlogged/whatever fan.

Yet, the flame sometmes "rolls out"/doesn't get sucked into the heat exchanger or lights at the back of the burner(s), eventually tripping the "rollout switch".

To the O.P., were the burners ever removed, examined, and cleaned during this?

Also, it would sure be interesting to "catch it in the act".

I have a high efficiency gas furnace in my shop, and several months ago, it was just lighting when the power flickered a couple of times.

I was working not far from the furnace, and noticed it was making an odd noise after the power settled down.

I lifted the cover off, and one of the burners was burning at the back end.

I shut it off and then recycled it, and AFAIK, it's been fine ever since.

I DID make it a point before the worst of winter set in to remove, check, and clean the burners.

Well it does seem cheap BUT right now over the past few years it is low. It has been higher in the past, much higher. I remember some people signed contracts for double or triple that some time ago. And of course, it is only one small part of what it costs to live. I see some of these home and garden real estate shows on TV and home prices in a lot of places south of the border seem ridiculously inexpensive for beautiful places. I guess we all grind it out to keep our heads above the water line.

Here's a look at our prices over the past few years .... and keep in mind these are Canadian dollars so $10 Canadian would be about $7.50 USD out of our pocket.
Untitled URL Link

This is a description of a 250 American meter (As a retired auditor from the local gas utility, this is the meter I am most familiar with.)


https://www.elster-americanmeter.com/assets/products/products_elster_files/EAM-DS3535.pdf

The description shows that the meter capacity is 600 cubic feet per minute at 2# pressure. Your combined load is about one half of that.

It shows that the temperature compensation is good for minus 30 degrees.

Thanks TomIn, that is great information. I will look at your reference. I also need to further investigate the size of the pipe to the house. It looks half inch to me but given it is one of those yellow flexible lines maybe the wall is so thin that it is rated more then half inch.

I appreciate your sharing your expertise.

Paul