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Farming beyond property lines?

S

ss55

Well-known Member
I saw this newspaper article that could be a sample of the future of farming. I can see both sides, the little family farm (only 27,000 acres) just wants to make a living, and the surrounding communities don't want the side effects of the farm to go beyond the property lines. Do family farms and corporate farms still have a responsibility to be good neighbors, or is that a thing of the past?

www.startribune.com/baby-s-death-sparks-water-safety-fight-with-the-ag-industry/502477031/?ref=nl&om_rid=1599347145&om_mid=151521737

For the last 150 years the trend in farming has been today's BTO is tomorrow's little guy. With more off-farm investors, corporate ownership and foreign ownership that trend will likely continue.
 
Here's a link below for the news item, saves some cutting and pasting. Sad story, I think the facts are all there, at least they appear to be. My heart goes out to the family ..... but for sure a person has to be careful not to jump to conclusions on the baby's death since it hasn't been confirmed or proved as to having been caused by the manure applications by the corporate farm. Likely was the cause if you read this, but I'm just sayin' ......
Untitled URL Link
 
I do not believe that any operation should extend beyond its boundaries, Farming has always been exempt, but it is abused.
 
They seem to get a pass on the 'SWPPP' Storm Water Pollution Prevention Program.
Many times I have seen tractors pulling a disk out of a field and tracking mud and silt for the next half mile down the highway.
Ultimately that piece of land is one day converted into a shopping center or a dwelling subdivision. It is now a construction site.
Up goes a silt fence all around the perimeter, bull rock placed at all the entrances, and other soils containment procedures.
 
This is why we have government. The answer lies somewhere between unfettered use of the water supply, and the waters of the US rule. Water is a public resource. Especially in this case, it?s not like you can pump only the water under your land. If you let your soil blow away, when it?s gone the problem is yours. When the water is gone the problem is everybody?s. Yes the water will come back at some point, but when?

As far as the high nitrate well water, I doubt that that is a new problem. As a private well user, you do have a responsibility to yourself to be sure your water supply is safe. Whether it is a contamination issue, or just the nature of the supply itself.

The last 4 places I have lived the well water was not safe to drink as it ran from the tap. Between nitrates, coliform, sulfates and other stuff, you learn to deal with it. Current well, if you bleach it good, it will pass a water test. High coliform counts, and if you take a glass of water from the tap, set it on the window sill, within a couple days you can see critters swimming in it. But it what we have, so you deal.
 
OK we got government but it isn't working. One of the functions of government is making sure the little people don't get run over by the greedy.

3 things that we have to have. No options. Food, water and air. Lack of air can kill in as little as a couple of minutes. Lack of water in a week or 10 days. Food can be a while depending on how fat a person is.

So if raising crops for non food purposes can helps cause raising nitrate levels lets bar "renewable fuels". That would reduce the amount of corn ground by about 40% and bean ground by 60. Farmers make up less than 2% of the population. And we are supposed to allow them to kill off the other 98% over greed? Polluting our drinking water? Drying up or streams, rivers and lakes? All for the greed of a few?

Flame away. You are wrong and you know it and are driven by sheer greed. No better than big business.

Rick
 
Old tanker: I am getting tired of your continued bashing of farmers on this site. The majority of the time with little to zero "real" information.

Here is one for you!!!!! I am sick bad tired of my tax dollars going to pay over inflated pensions of people that retire on the government hog trough. While you setting there sucking up benefits that none of your hated farmers will ever get. But us farmers are the greedy ones trying to make a living for our families.
 
I can say for sure the trend is for anything deemed pollution or harmful not be let off the premises of the source,has applied to business for many years.At the concrete plant we had to spend
a whole lot of money to keep the cement dust from going off our property and there were pretty stiff fines and could be shut down.Farms have gotten away with a lot for years but now farms are not what farms used to be and its pretty hard for Industrial farmers to hide behind the Mr Green Jeans personna anymore.Some of these confinement operations has a terrible stench that can
smelled for miles,a lot more voters that don't want to smell it than people that are producing the smell.If a farmer or anyone else gets mud on the road the county can and will make the landowner clean it up and if it continues can get a ticket and get fined.
 
Well rick I?ll tell ya this I?ll probably live longer than
the average person without food I?ll tell ya that 😂.
 
You always omit the DDG's production in the distillation of ethanol, a by-product used for animal feed generated by an ethanol plant. Lots of people eat meat from animals fed DDG"s. Over half of the 40 % of corn distilled for fuel uses the co-generated byproduct (DDG) for animal feed. That animal feed has to come from somewhere. It might as well come from a corn grower. A new ethanol plant is under construction in Shelbyville, will be the 11th one in operation in IN. They anticipate using 2 million bushels corn annually for the operation of this one plant at full capacity in 18 months. They forecast it will add 10 to 15 cents to the price of corn in central IN. I doubt 1 % of corn farmers here are against higher corn prices.
 
(quoted from post at 18:39:35 12/26/18) Old tanker: I am getting tired of your continued bashing of farmers on this site. The majority of the time with little to zero "real" information.

Here is one for you!!!!! I am sick bad tired of my tax dollars going to pay over inflated pensions of people that retire on the government hog trough. While you setting there sucking up benefits that none of your hated farmers will ever get. But us farmers are the greedy ones trying to make a living for our families.
Click to expand...

JD I really don't care what you think. Most scientist agree. The current nitrate problem has been cause by farmers. And any old excuse to prop corn and bean prices are good enough. To keep pumping nitrates into the ground WITHOUT REGARD the the consequences. Show me your real info from real independent sources that proves that the nitrates are not coming from farmers. Especially when the area affected is UPSTREAM for an urban area. Just sheer greed. Look I know a lot of guys are struggling. Ask yourself why? When Corn went to 7 bucks farmers not bankers, farmers not retirees, farmers not business people, farmers not workers took 33 million acres out of CRP according to the government. That went into corn the next season. But look at this Mr high and mighty. If too much fertilizer is causing problems why not cut back a little? So what if you lose 20 BPA on corn? Is that too much to ask? Sure it is cause it cuts into your bottom line. You'd rather poison the water table and suck the streams and lakes dry rather than lose production. Now if Exxon moved in next to you and started doing something that polluted ground water and made local streams and lake go dry you'd scream bloody murder. But it's OK for you to do EXACTLY the same thing and it's OK cause you are a farmer? Sorry I hold you to the same standards. I',m sorry that you don't seem to have any standards.

As far as my retirement? I made a contract with the government. I upheld my end of that contract. So I am being paid what was in that contract. What's wrong with that? I would hope that if you made a contract with someone that you would uphold your end as long as they upheld their end. Bet you not only get money because of forced ethanol sales (back door subsidy keep, corn artificially high.) but through government backed crop insurance. And just what service are you providing to be at that government hog trough? You are producing a product for sale. You ain't provided a service in some time.

Rick
 
I warned the corporate farmer/applicator next door (50 ft) about my Wife's COPD. He sprayed in the wind and she went to the hospital!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
I almost always agree with or at least respect J.D.Seller's opinions but I think he "s--- in
his mess kit" this time.
 
Oldtanker: Every time you post you show how little you know about modern agriculture.

I know that OUR farms are not causing any nitrate increases in the ground water around us. How do I know this???? Two ways.

one) Our very own wells are right in the middle of the ground we farm. I have had them tested for years to see if the nitrate levels are changing. Guess what they are changing!!! THEY are going down!!!!!

Two: With the number of livestock we have we have to have a nutrient management plan filed with the state DNR. Part of that plan is a water quality study of our farms. Cost us $25K for the first one and $2500 each year after. Every single one of them show that the water leaving our farms is as clean as it was when it came on and in many cases cleaner.

We have cut back commercial fertilizers 30% in the last ten years while increasing our average yields 10%. We have increased manure application but completely stopped anhydrous ammonia applications. All manure is incorporated within 24 hours of application.

Here are two cases that show how ignorant the average person is on this subject. One directly involved our land and the other was my Brother-in-law in Ohio.

One: A well neighboring land we farm started showing higher nitrate levels. Had to be our fault as we are EVIL farmers spreading manure on the land around them. So we got sued. Only fact that the person had was their well had increased nitrate levels and it HAD to be our fault. Court ordered water quality assessment found the trouble to be the shallow well being too close to the well owner's septic system. Heck in only cost us $30K that peanuts to us EVIL rich farmers.

Two: MY BIL farmed around a state built flood control/recreation lake. In the late 1980s the lake had HIGH levels of nitrates and other nutrient pollution. Well that just had to be the EVIL farmers again. So the state enacted water management plans for all farms in the lake's water shed. Over the next ten years just about 70% of the livestock in that water shed left. Fertilizer applications fell too. The trouble is the lake got worse. So in 1995 the Federal EPA came in and did testing. It did not take them long to find the source. The 2500 houses with septic systems around the lake. See the state sold the development ground to help pay for building the lake. The home owners had to group together and form a Public utility system to get grants/loans to put in a sewage system. Within 5 years the levels dropped to acceptable levels in the lake. Never any mention of the effected farms up stream. They still are under the water management plans. These plans are also getting harder to comply with. For livestock manure/runoff, 100% containment is not enough if the containment pond is earthen now for 2020. Has to be concrete or a mechanical structure. NO grand fathering in.


As for not having anything to do with the government trough. Well I sure as heck help fill it. In 2017 my federal tax bill without SS was six figures. I can not even think of drawing SS until next year because I would not get a dime. I have paid into that system my entire life and will never get what I paid in back. My wife gets a small disability check but my SS payment is many times what she draws.
 
(quoted from post at 21:59:01 12/26/18) Oldtanker: Every time you post you show how little you know about modern agriculture.

I know that OUR farms are not causing any nitrate increases in the ground water around us. How do I know this???? Two ways.

one) Our very own wells are right in the middle of the ground we farm. I have had them tested for years to see if the nitrate levels are changing. Guess what they are changing!!! THEY are going down!!!!!

Two: With the number of livestock we have we have to have a nutrient management plan filed with the state DNR. Part of that plan is a water quality study of our farms. Cost us $25K for the first one and $2500 each year after. Every single one of them show that the water leaving our farms is as clean as it was when it came on and in many cases cleaner.

We have cut back commercial fertilizers 30% in the last ten years while increasing our average yields 10%. We have increased manure application but completely stopped anhydrous ammonia applications. All manure is incorporated within 24 hours of application.

Here are two cases that show how ignorant the average person is on this subject. One directly involved our land and the other was my Brother-in-law in Ohio.

One: A well neighboring land we farm started showing higher nitrate levels. Had to be our fault as we are EVIL farmers spreading manure on the land around them. So we got sued. Only fact that the person had was their well had increased nitrate levels and it HAD to be our fault. Court ordered water quality assessment found the trouble to be the shallow well being too close to the well owner's septic system. Heck in only cost us $30K that peanuts to us EVIL rich farmers.

Two: MY BIL farmed around a state built flood control/recreation lake. In the late 1980s the lake had HIGH levels of nitrates and other nutrient pollution. Well that just had to be the EVIL farmers again. So the state enacted water management plans for all farms in the lake's water shed. Over the next ten years just about 70% of the livestock in that water shed left. Fertilizer applications fell too. The trouble is the lake got worse. So in 1995 the Federal EPA came in and did testing. It did not take them long to find the source. The 2500 houses with septic systems around the lake. See the state sold the development ground to help pay for building the lake. The home owners had to group together and form a Public utility system to get grants/loans to put in a sewage system. Within 5 years the levels dropped to acceptable levels in the lake. Never any mention of the effected farms up stream. They still are under the water management plans. These plans are also getting harder to comply with. For livestock manure/runoff, 100% containment is not enough if the containment pond is earthen now for 2020. Has to be concrete or a mechanical structure. NO grand fathering in.


As for not having anything to do with the government trough. Well I sure as heck help fill it. In 2017 my federal tax bill without SS was six figures. I can not even think of drawing SS until next year because I would not get a dime. I have paid into that system my entire life and will never get what I paid in back. My wife gets a small disability check but my SS payment is many times what she draws.
Click to expand...

Look, I'm not blaming you in particular. There are a lot of guys out there that don't care one little bit. So one guy does it right and 20 others don't. All farmers get the blame. I know how much our lakes water levels dropped in dry year prior to all the pivots going in and I know what they do now. And we got guys here that have them set set up on a timer. They come one and run even during rain storms. For years MN has slowly but surly forcing folks of septic systems to go to closed systems. Even the amount of livestock here is down. Yet our nitrate levels are rising. So all new systems are sealed. Plus the state has been forcing homeowners into new sealed systems. ANd lets not forget the small towns that have been forced into city sewer systems and waste treatment. Town of Battle Lake, population less than 1,000, city sewer. Henning MN population 810, city sewer. Urbank Mn population 54, yes 54 went to city sewer 3 years ago. Plus less livestock. Sandy loam soil. Now just where do you think the nitrates are coming from? We are not downstream either. They are coming from the same guys running irrigation either the day after a rain or even during a rain. 2 biggest offenders in the area are RDO and a friend of mine. Neither have livestock. Now MN is supposed to start fining em for running em when it sin't needed. We'll see. As far as the nitrates here? Just about every field for 50 miles or so are in some kind or watershed area. Everything here either drains east to the Mississippi or west to the Red.

Now interestingly in just the last week I've seen farmers south of me spreading manure. Like mad. At least 3 of them. One is running a near new JD tractor. Another a nice looking MF and the other a 90's CaseIH Magnum. Tandem axle spreaders. The ground here is a bit too hard to plow that in anytime soon. We most like have about 4-6 feet of frost in the ground right now. Like I say, so guys are doing it right. But judging from what I see here? Maybe 1 in 20.

Rick
 
Just admit JD Seller, you, sir, are part of...... BIG FARMA!! lol

A waste water treatment system wont make any difference unless they are running an RO system. There is virtually no other way to remove NO2- & NO3- from water or waste water.

Since NO2- can turn into NO3- relatively easy, it compounds the problem.

Municipalities bring down the levels by blending the source water with RO treated water.

i do like the purely scientific 1 in 20 number, because all farmers are just dumb ol idiots who like nothing more than wasting that gubbmint hand out money on over fertilizing. None of them are smart enough to recognize a waste of input dollars or much less do anything about it.

there are several other things that could be pointed out but its obvious based on the posts that some have no clue how anything related to chemistry works, so there isnt much point in trying to have an honest conversation. They have made up their mind that they are right and everybody else is wrong.....

BIG FARMA!!!! (<---see what i did there HAHAH)
 
There are thousands of residential houses with septic systems and almost no crop or large scale livestock operations in my area and have never heard of any Nitrite problem in the ground water or streams and they are checked all the time because of the Chespeake Bay thing.On the other hand in the areas where there is a lot of crop farming and up in PA where there are a lot of pretty good size livestock operations I hear of Nitrates being in the water on a routine basis.The general public (voters) are less willing all the time to put up with things they don't want and
Nitrates in their drinking water and things like Roundup in their oatmeal are not things they are going to accept as normal.
 
There is no reason to bash farmers in general, there is pollution from farming and from residential.

There are pretty strict rules on the larger confinement systems, so I think they are doing fine.

There are basically no rules on non point source runoff or tile outlets, that is where I believe most of the issues are. I see it as I drive around, some farmers do a great job of controlling this and other do a terrible job. The creeks in Iowa are basically drainage ditches, most have been channelized with little or no greenspace and tiles dump right into them. One that bugs the snot out of me is the Kinze properties along I80. There are a couple of creeks going through those farms, that have been channelized, farmed right up to the edge and tiles dumping into them., It kind of reminds me of the pictures from the Mexican slums.

Another issue here is the smaller cattle operations, that allow the livestock to graze the stream beds, which damages the banks and adds ecoli.

I do not believe in voluntary, because the people that would do it with regulations are already doing it, and the ones that need regulation will not do it without.

To me, no on has the right to pollute the water, stream restoration and tiles run into wetland areas would greatly help water quality. Industrial businesses have to comply, so should farmers, as it is a business, which I think no one would argue with.
 
Oldtanker, how big is your farm? how many ac do you rent? any cattle or hogs how do you contribute to food for people?
 
(quoted from post at 07:06:30 12/27/18) Oldtanker, how big is your farm? how many ac do you rent? any cattle or hogs how do you contribute to food for people?
Click to expand...

I retired from farming a couple of years ago. But when I did farm I contributed nothing to food for people. Everything I sold I sold for profit just like any other farmer. A city dweller who regularly donates canned goods to the local food shelf contributes more food for people than you do or I did. We, you and I were/are profit motivated. We sold/sell what we produce.

So the very idea that you are doing something noble? You ain't! You are just another business that happens to produce stuff. Some of it's even edible.

Now I'll admit that the 1 in 20 number i pulled out of thin air. Based on what I see around here. I know 2 farmers who are really concerned about residue runoff. To drive from one farm to the other is 50 miles.

Now in case you missed it. 100% of the fertilizer put into the ground isn't used by the crops. Some of is going to run off. Back in the day most of the farmers around here didn't use chemical fertilizers. And they never had enough manure to do the whole farm. So most only spread manure where they were planting corn that was only raised to feed livestock. No nitrate problems.
Plus for the last 20 years the state has really cracked down on septic systems. So just where is all these nitrates in our water coming from? We don't have enough people fertilizing lawns for that to be an issue. We ain't down stream from nothing. Only one source.

Rick
 
Residential lawn runoff is a big problem too, cities should be required to do nitrate and phosphorus mitigation, storm sewers should run to wet lands.
 
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