Do we have any bayonet experts out there?

Paul Shuler · Dec 20, 2018

When my Dad passed 10 years ago I got his old M1 Garand. I had bid on a bayonet for it " an original not a repro" and have been out bid every time.I showed my wife one that I bid on and she said "oh my mom has one of those". Well of course I laughed thinking she didn't know what she was talking about. She said her mom has used it in her flower garden since my wife's uncle brought it home from the Korean war. I thought yeh right. Well she brought it home last night. Lol, I couldn't believe it. It is in amazing shape for 50 plus years of use digging in the flowers. Now I have to buy my mother in law a new garden tool. My photos are a bit blurry but you can still see all the markings. Her mom and dad both have dementia and do not remember how they got it. Wife had a great uncle that fought in WW1. I tend to think that it may be where it came from. Her Korean war uncle is still alive but has bad Alzheimers. It has a date of 1918 on it and the flying US bomb. It also has a wooden handle and the point is a bit different then the ones I have been looking at. It also has a marking that my photos don't show very well that I think is AFH. Would love to hear your opinions on it or any insight that you might have. I was holding it last night couldn't help think if it could only tell it's stories.

Kansas4010 · Dec 20, 2018

I believe it's a US m1905 bayonet. The first detachable bayonet for the 1903 Springfield rifle. When the Springfield was first made it had a sliding spike style bayonet. I think it was made from 1905 to 1917. I used to collect bayonets and swords in my younger years. Haven't bought one now for quite a while.

oldtanker · Dec 20, 2018

That looks like the M1905E1 Knife/Chisel point Bayonet. There was also a M1905E1 Spear Point and a straight M1 Bayonet.

One of the things the US army did when it adopted the M! was insist that it could use the Bayonet used on the Springfield O3A3. That means that anything from the original O3 could be used and would still fit. So there were still a lot of older Bayonets still in the inventory when WWII broke out and the M1 wasn't even fully fielded. When the Marines went ashore on Guadalcanal in 1942 they were still equipped with the O3A3.

http://antiqueoutings.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Diagram-of-M1-bayonets-Types.jpg

Rick

David from Kansas · Dec 20, 2018

That is a nice find. I think AFH stands for American Fork and Hoe.
we had bayonets for our Garands but I don't remember exactly what they looked like but I think they were shorter than what you have. Is the bayonet for the Springfield 1903 the same as for the Garand?

David from Kansas · Dec 20, 2018

Thanks for explaining that, Rick.

Mike M · Dec 20, 2018

My wife's uncle was in Korea. I used to work on his lawn mower and I think when he was at my shop he saw my Garand hanging in the gun rack. I'm thinking that must be the reason he knew I had a Garand ? Not long after that when we were at his place he handed me his bayonet he had carried and brought home with him. Had a few other customers who liked my guns too and then would tell me some stories of there time served.
When I first read about the 1918 date I was thinking you have one for a Springfield model 1903.
I always thought they were different ? as the ones I saw were always longer. But after reading the fellows reply below about they interchange I'll have to try it on my Springfield.
So how much had you seen them selling for ?

Paul Shuler · Dec 20, 2018

I bid $95 on one and it was still going at $180 when I last looked. Not sure what the final was on it. There is a few on E-bay with the buy it now thing around $180-$220.

mb58 · Dec 20, 2018

I have one just like it that a returned WW2 vet traded my Grandpa for a block of ice at the ice house where he worked in 1946. It is like the one in the picture except mine has Bakelite on the handle where yours is wood. Fits my Garand perfectly. Earlier models of this bayonet were longer. The "winged bomb" is the US Army Ordnance emblem.

Goose · Dec 20, 2018

With the date "1918", I can't see where it's for an M1.

I have an M1 bayonet in my toolbox in my shop, but it's not where I can access it right now to look at or photo.

I've used it for all manner of mayhem. I've even hammered on the back side of it to cut sheet metal. It's basically indestructible.

Kansas4010 · Dec 20, 2018

The same bayonet fits the Springfield rifle as well as the M1 Garand. There were changes to make them "correct" for each rifle according to collectors. They are still all interchangeable though.

Mike M · Dec 20, 2018

It's nice to have some clue as to what stuff I have is worth. I think the guns are really going up in price too.

LSaunders · Dec 20, 2018

The one I have is an older, longer version. The date on it is 1907, and the blade length is 16". The point is a rounded taper from each side to the middle. It snaps right into place on both the Krag and the Garand.

IHC pickups · Dec 20, 2018

What a cool find.

jacksun65 · Dec 20, 2018

Your bayonet is correct for a M1 Garand or Springfield 03, It was originally 16" long but was cut down for use in WWII.

Pete-IN · Dec 20, 2018

The bayonet is real but the story just screams URBAN LEGEND.

Michael Soldan · Dec 20, 2018

I don't know anything about bayonets but I was always told the following. "Conserve your ammunition , the last man with ammunition always wins the bayonet fight ! "

dr sportster · Dec 20, 2018

The command "fix bayonets " means the whole platoon is out of ammo. The beginning of hand to hand combat.

Paul Shuler · Dec 20, 2018

You can see in the blade photos the grove on the sides of the blade still have dirt from the Mother in law digging with it. And one thing the photos do not show is the handle on the opposite side has some house paint on it from when my father in law used it to stir paint. He was never in the service but his brother saw heavy action in Korea and is still alive at 85 and their uncle that served in WW1 who I think may have belonged to the bayonet has long since passed. I doubt we will ever know much more of it's story at this point.

oldtanker · Dec 20, 2018

Guys keep in mind that M1 rifle was adopted during the depression when military budgets were a joke. So yea, they demanded that the older bayonet would fit the M1 in a cost saving measure. US Army strength in 1938-39 was less than 400,000 total active, reserve and NG with about 190,000 active duty. Military budgets reflected the US isolationist attitudes. The M1 bayonet to the best of my knowledge was designed for the M1 but the bayonets that fit the O3's would also fit. So really any would be correct and I'm betting that there were lots of the old ones in warehouses. Shortly after WWII broke out there were reports of massive numbers of Saber, Calvary, 1913 (last model for the US Army) found in US Army warehouses. At the time they were found the US Army had disbanded the last horse mounted Cav units during the fighting in the Philippians and the soldiers wound up eating their horses on Bataan. So the Army was use to keeping stuff long past when it could be used.

Rick

Kansasredneck · Dec 20, 2018

In 1943 the Army reworked a bunch of older bayonets. They took existing ones and cut them to 10 inches. They were designated as M1905E1. The original unit was most likely a 1905 designed for the 1903 Springfield. The haft is identical to ones pictured of the original M1905. The 1918 is probably the acceptance date as the SA for Springfield Armory and the Ordinance bomb accompany it.
My WW1 era rifle is a 1917 Eddystone. I have the bayonet for it, but it looks nothing like yours and does not interchange with the 1903/Garand. Congratulations on your acquisition.
Bayonet guide from WW2

Mike M · Dec 20, 2018

Who knows it also could of been picked up at a surplus junk store ? My uncle even bought surplus guns dirt cheap in those places. The gun control act of 1968 likely put the end to that. Unless there was another one before that ?

Paul Shuler · Dec 20, 2018

What an amazing time in history. I have some of my dads and my uncles ww2 stuff that I cherish and plan on leaving to my 26 year old son one day. The thing that breaks my heart is he shows little or no interest in anything of the past. What a sacrifice our fathers made for us and our freedoms. Thank you Sir for your interesting reply.

jeffcat · Dec 20, 2018

You guys need to go check out a good size gun show. There are loads of interesting stuff there. This past weekend I was at the Oaks,PA show. How does 2000 tables of stuff sound? Takes up all three rooms of the convention center. Show runs for three days. Just bring money. Couple of pictures from it. The target you are looking at is from a benchrest gun. That target is a timed fire ten shot group at 1000 YARDS! Second smallest recorded group in that ranges history. They shoot across a valley. There is a farm in the valley and they have a phone line down to the farmer. Give him a ring when they are going to start. Show closes at four on Sunday and I took pictures as things were thinning out.

jeffcat · Dec 20, 2018

If he shows no interest then it might be a good idea to sell it to a collector. Do your research on line so you have a value idea. Just don't be greedy. If you can provide a written back round history of the items then that adds to the values. Beleave it or not, be very careful how much you clean something. Can drastically effect the value.

Kansas4010 · Dec 20, 2018

I have a 1917 Enfield as well. Mine was a WW2 rebuild though. I bought it from the original veteran that carried it. He had no children that wanted anything to do with it so I promised to take care of it. He said he had the bayonet for it somewhere but couldn't remember where. He passed away before he found it. I picked up a bayonet later that is the first pattern from WW1. I never thought to see if it fits my M1 or 03A3.

Mike M · Dec 20, 2018

I used to go to a lot of local guns shows. None were that big or expensive to get into however.

jeffcat · Dec 20, 2018

Cost $12.oo at the door. Not that bad. I bought several big bags of really good jerky. Terriace type. Nice and chewey and yummy. Here is the sign that was on that 50cal.

jeffcat · Dec 20, 2018

Even this kind of information means a lot to collectors. Unit he served in, where and when. Also it's after the war history can mean something. Right everything down. Sometimes they were called potato diggers, wonder why?

PaGlenn · Dec 20, 2018

I'm going to the Oaks show in March. I need two screws for the front ring on my Carcano 6.5cal. Couldn't find any on Ebay. Thanx for reminder on jerky. I will look for it at the show.

sotxbill · Dec 20, 2018

All I know is... that the pointy end goes away from you. I served in the air force.

Olliejunkie · Dec 20, 2018

I got this one from my cousin. I believe it was my Grandfather's. He died at 55 and I was maybe 10. I believe he was a marine but I dont know where or when. I know he brought I rifle back too and had it rebored. I wish I knew more. I couldn't find anything other than the carvings in the handle.

Olliejunkie · Dec 20, 2018

Kansasredneck · Dec 20, 2018

Take a look at his picture. If the steel at the back wraps like that, it is for the 03. The 1917 Bayonet has the full end made of steel so the wood is a straight cut instead of fitted. I got mine from a gun shop in South Dakota. Also picked up an 1898 Springfield in 30-40 Krag that had been sporterized.

37chief · Dec 20, 2018

The Del Mar gun show in southern California just had it's last very large gun show. There was just too many people against the show in this abundant city. Stan

Kansasredneck · Dec 20, 2018

That looks like an Imperial Japanese type 30. They were crudely made, and not always hardened steel. Note how the hilt is riveted to the blade and the uneven curvature of the lower loop. The belt frog on the scabbard appears to be impregnated cloth as it is stitched. Be careful in handling, they get stiff and brittle.
If the overall length is 19.5 to 20.25 inches, and the blade length 15 to 15.5, that would be a strong indication.

Olliejunkie · Dec 20, 2018

(quoted from post at 20:04:58 12/20/18) That looks like an Imperial Japanese type 30. They were crudely made, and not always hardened steel. Note how the hilt is riveted to the blade and the uneven curvature of the lower loop. The belt frog on the scabbard appears to be impregnated cloth as it is stitched. Be careful in handling, they get stiff and brittle.
If the overall length is 19.5 to 20.25 inches, and the blade length 15 to 15.5, that would be a strong indication.

You are correct on the length however the frog is leather. Thank you for the info.

CGID · Dec 20, 2018

Late issue Japanese for sure. My Dad brought one back from New Guinea that he picked up after the Battle of Milne Bay in '42. It is very well made. The leather frog is still as good as new.

JCinKY · Dec 20, 2018

Bearing in mind that my Japanese is very rough...

You have two symbols on your bayonet, with the assumption that the carver was right handed holding the bayonet with the blade out.

The first symbol are the two horizontal lines with the top slightly shorter than the bottom. This translate to “Ni” in English meaning to or toward.

The second are the two opposed curved lines on the bottom. This translate to “Ha” in English but with the “Ni” predicate should be used as “Wa”. “Wa” translates to peace or harmony in English.

So basically your Type 30 bayonet says “To Peace” in English inscribed on the handle.

This is all based on my very limited knowledge of Kana.

I would like to think it was a nice gesture to any GI that would see the business end anyway.

Jeff C
Jesse Adkins, Carl Adkins European Theater
On behalf of Charles “CA” Garnett Jr. Okinawa, etc Japanese Theater

Olliejunkie · Dec 20, 2018

(quoted from post at 21:04:37 12/20/18)
Bearing in mind that my Japanese is very rough...

You have two symbols on your bayonet, with the assumption that the carver was right handed holding the bayonet with the blade out.

The first symbol are the two horizontal lines with the top slightly shorter than the bottom. This translate to “Ni” in English meaning to or toward.

The second are the two opposed curved lines on the bottom. This translate to “Ha” in English but with the “Ni” predicate should be used as “Wa”. “Wa” translates to peace or harmony in English.

So basically your Type 30 bayonet says “To Peace” in English inscribed on the handle.

This is all based on my very limited knowledge of Kana.

I would like to think it was a nice gesture to any GI that would see the business end anyway.

Jeff C
Jesse Adkins, Carl Adkins European Theater
On behalf of Charles “CA” Garnett Jr. Okinawa, etc Japanese Theater

Thank you. That is very interesting as well. I found part of a uniform in grandma's trunk. I will have to get it out too. It seems to small for my grandfather. Maybe one of you can tell me about it. Anyway that's another thread and I'm sorry if I got out of line jumping on this one.

JCinKY · Dec 20, 2018

I will add that if the lower right hand curved line were to have a slight hook on the bottom it translates directly to “Kill”.

Such is the nature of handwriting and Japanese. Carving would only compound the issue.

I will ask our Japanese advisor tomorrow what he thinks. I choose to believe the former.

Olliejunkie · Dec 20, 2018

I tried to translate it to numbers prior to reading your post. I came up with 28
But I have no idea what I'm doing. If it was that simple maybe it meant 28th infantry. I will be interested to see what you find out.

D beatty · Dec 21, 2018

I have 2 1917 Enfields. Years ago my uncle gave me a 197 with bayonet and enough parts to totally rebuild it including a new barrel. If I remember right it was built by Winchester (head space has been check and it is perfect. The second one has been sporterized and rebarreled anc chambered in 300 H&H with a K4 Weaver scope on it.

Mike M · Dec 21, 2018

Only $5.00 to $ 6.00 around here in Ohio to enter.

Do we have any bayonet experts out there?

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