Flathead engine VS overhead valves-how much better is OHV?

I am in the process of bringing back to life a Kohler L600 powered 6500 watt generator. Theses are supposed to be very high quality machines. It is a flathead, 4 cylinder engine with cast iron pistons that operates at 1800 RPM. It has an updraft carburetor.

Kohler built and sold this engine up until 1985, way past the hayday of the flathead engine. They began building this engine around 1948, and it followed an overhead valve engine that ceased production that year. This L600 engine was a 6.5 to 1 compression ratio to the end in 1985.

Here's my question, and I think I can make it tractor related:

Kohler had good engineers then, and still does today. Why would they continue to build a flathead engine 30 years after the auto manufactures began using overhead valve engines? I read everything I could find on the internet on this subject. The consensus out there is that low octane gas, low compression, and low RPM's all negate the advantages of overhead valves. Only with the advent of higher octane and higher RPM's did the OHV engine surpass the flathead. The flathead has the advantage of less moving parts. You cannot raise the compression by shaving the head without crowding the valves and reducing flow.

Now to the tractor part. It would seem that some of you guys who are familiar with the older tractor models might be able to point me to Nebraska Tractor Test results where there was one tractor with a similar sized flathead engine that might be compared with a comperable OHV engine. Tractor engines should run in a similar RPM range to the generator. I would be intetested in the HP and fuel consumption in those two style engines.

I know that all of the manufacturers went to OHV, but was there a significant difference to the flathead?
 
(quoted from post at 00:46:34 11/15/18) I am in the process of bringing back to life a Kohler L600 powered 6500 watt generator. Theses are supposed to be very high quality machines. It is a flathead, 4 cylinder engine with cast iron pistons that operates at 1800 RPM. It has an updraft carburetor.

Kohler built and sold this engine up until 1985, way past the hayday of the flathead engine. They began building this engine around 1948, and it followed an overhead valve engine that ceased production that year. This L600 engine was a 6.5 to 1 compression ratio to the end in 1985.

Here's my question, and I think I can make it tractor related:

Kohler had good engineers then, and still does today. Why would they continue to build a flathead engine 30 years after the auto manufactures began using overhead valve engines? I read everything I could find on the internet on this subject. The consensus out there is that low octane gas, low compression, and low RPM's all negate the advantages of overhead valves. Only with the advent of higher octane and higher RPM's did the OHV engine surpass the flathead. The flathead has the advantage of less moving parts. You cannot raise the compression by shaving the head without crowding the valves and reducing flow.

Now to the tractor part. It would seem that some of you guys who are familiar with the older tractor models might be able to point me to Nebraska Tractor Test results where there was one tractor with a similar sized flathead engine that might be compared with a comperable OHV engine. Tractor engines should run in a similar RPM range to the generator. I would be intetested in the HP and fuel consumption in those two style engines.

I know that all of the manufacturers went to OHV, but was there a significant difference to the flathead?
o to bed & don't worry about it.
 
The design was in production and as a result cheap to keep making. The slow speed allowed OK performance. Simplicity was important. Low engine profile was important. The real advantage of a "I" head engine is in real efficiency. The exhaust ports being surrounded by coolant can cause hot spots and cracking. So when increased performance was needed, manufacturers got off their duff, and competed (in cars and trucks). Jim
 
For time considerations, I will address only your question regarding Nebraska tests.

The IH Cub and the AC G used small 4 cylinder flathead engines of about 61 or 62 CI. I believe that the MH Pony used the same Continental engine as did the G.

Many other small tractors used small 4 cylinder flathead engines as well, e.g., Avery, etc.

FWIW, the fundamental reason that flathead engines were replaced with I head engines in the automotive market was to allow increased HP due to increased CR. Yes, the I head design allowed other improvements but the improved combustion chamber design of OHV engines allowing much increased CR was the fundamental reason.

SDT
 
A reasonable comparison might be the Ford Jubilee/NAA (Nebraska test 494) versus the Ford 8N (test 443).

The 8N produced 26 hp @ 2000 rpm from 120 cubic inches.
The Jubilee produced 31 hp @ 2000 rpm from 134 cubic inches.

The specific fuel consumption was similar for the two tractors: .55 lb/hp-hr for the 8N, .56 for the NAA. This can be explained by the fact they have almost identical compression ratios (6.5 and 6.6).

With the 601 series (test 642), Ford raised the compression ratio of the 134 engine to 7.5. That increased power to 34 hp @ 2000 rpm, but (surprisingly) increased specific fuel consumption to .61 lb/hp-hr.
 
Compare a MH 44 with the Continenal 4 cylinder 260 cid engine to a MH 44 with a 6 cylinder flathead engine. Both were tested at Nebraska.
Ben
 
Flat heads seemed to have more valve issues.
My experience with flat head lawn mower engines were valve guide wear and valve seat recession. Only way to adjust valves on flat heads was to remove valve from engine and grind valve stem. Lot of trial and error to get valves adjusted right.

The valve grinders even had provisions to grind of valve stem.

Today's OVH lawn mower engines seem to have higher compression and require a compression release built into cam. OVH mowers require valve adjustments. So there still may be valve seat recession, but you can easily fix the problem, just adjust the valves.

As for Hp, torque, and compression it really hard to compare apples to oranges. Today's engines are diesel, so yes more compression.

Brother had a 1937 JD D. Two cylinder, long stroke, overhead valves, Very slow RPM's, lots of Hp, lots of torque from the long stroke.

I stay away from flat heads. One reason I bought a Jubilee instead of the N's.
 
Chrysler built a flathead 6 cylinder up until 1972. It was in a military vehicle, possibly the M37. I don’t recall if the flathead six was used in anything else at that time.
 
JMOR ..... that's a reply I will remember to use when I don't have a clue what the answer is to a question.
Here's a joke for you that I made up ...

Teacher: JMOR, when did Columbus discover America?

JMOR: Go to bed Mr. Jones and don't worry about it.
 
I believe the vintage hot rod market has a number of conversion kits available (or they used to be) to convert your Ford flathead V8 to an overhead valve engine. Here's one in a video below in the link .... not a simple design by any means but it must have made a difference ....
Ford V8 Flathead to OHV conversion .....
 
They did, Crazy Horse. At one time there were OHV conversions available for Model A (and B?) flathead 4 cylinder engines. Fontenac and Ardun come to mind.

Such conversions were quite uncommon because they were expensive and OHV engines were becoming available.

Historical footnote: The Ardun conversion was the brainchild of Zora Arkus Duntov, and launched his career.

Dean
 
(quoted from post at 22:14:30 11/14/18) The design was in production and as a result cheap to keep making. The slow speed allowed OK performance. Simplicity was important. Low engine profile was important. The real advantage of a "I" head engine is in real efficiency. The exhaust ports being surrounded by coolant can cause hot spots and cracking. So when increased performance was needed, manufacturers got off their duff, and competed (in cars and trucks). Jim

Agree 100%. Most likely the decision to stay with a flathead design was financial considerations by the COE and the head bean counter. I doubt that the head engineer was even consulted. A: it worked B: was already in production C: required no modifications to the tooling or production line. Didn't matter to Kohler if they could have done better. Profit was the motivation.

Rick
 
"Flat heads seemed to have more valve issues. My experience with flat head lawn mower engines were valve guide wear and valve seat recession. Only way to adjust valves on flat heads was to remove valve from engine and grind valve stem. Lot of trial and error to get valves adjusted right."

When my Brigs and Stratton engine needed valve adjusting I chained the mower down real tight to a corner post.
I then took a file and ran it back and forth between the lifter and valve. Didn't need to remove the head nor the valve.
 
Yeah, I expect "if it ain't broke don't fix it" came into play. A concept I heartily endorse. Working on mostly Japanese ATV for 20 years and constantly contending with their maddening penchant for continually engineering $300 dollar solutions to $30 problems, you develop areal appreciation for KISS.
 
(quoted from post at 14:19:54 11/15/18) JMOR ..... that's a reply I will remember to use when I don't have a clue what the answer is to a question.
Here's a joke for you that I made up ...

Teacher: JMOR, when did Columbus discover America?

JMOR: Go to bed Mr. Jones and don't worry about it.
Some people are more concerned with their post count than others.
 
The older 4 & 6 cylinder flathead Continental engines were made by the millions I think, most of those were flatheads. YT guys will know many of them from Massey Harris tractors and other tractor makes as well. They were also used in a LOT of cars and trucks back in the day, including Checker Cabs I think. I have a 140 cubic inch version in a Massey Harris 20. No longer made I don't think but Continental is still around with OHV engines. Parts are still available for the old flatheads.
 
It's a compromise. The flathead has fewer parts and should be cheaper to produce in a low production run. They are a bit more compact for applications where space is a premium. Power was adequate at lower RPMs.

The inherent larger combustion chamber for a given displacement hurts efficiency. OHV allows you to design a much better burning combustion chamber.

Always compromises when engineering for-profit manufactured goods.
 

first off an 1800 rpm generator will ALWAYS be much better than a 3600 rpm generator. SO THAT is the real answer.


Second... for emission purposes, and more power in the same form factor, is why most went to overhead valves. Met that a smaller engine, less weight could be used, with mostly aluminum/potmetal parts, cheaper and faster to make, but basically a throw away engine.


The are still thousands of great onan and Kohler flat head 1800 rpm generators running today and will still be running long after the ohv engines are dust. This is why you are rebuilding the Kohler engine, as it can be rebuilt, and will be around for your great grand kids.
 
Yes.....just saw a couple of Frontenac converted engines on a farm sale bill a couple of weeks ago in Illinois ? Looked like the farmer had quite a collection of Model A and Model T stuff along with high $$$ modern farm equipment. Good info on Zora Arkus Duntov......before he was the father of the Chevrolet smallblock V/8.....he did the Ardun conversion. Originally Ardun built OHV conversions for owners of Ford large trucks to get them more hauling power.....then found their way into hot rodding. Would still love to find an old farm truck in the "scrap pile" row at a farm sale with an Ardun under the hood !!!
 
The flat head engine will be fine for that application. My only concern would be that if it is a generator that uses brushes, the power will not be as clean as a modern generator. This is only a concern if you are powering electronic equipment. That generator properly rebuilt should outlast 2 or 3 3600 rpm units.
 

Tooling and production line was paid for and product was cheap to build.
Why spend money on engineering and new equipment if customers are purchasing the product ?
Flatheads do not have the airflow nor the detonation tolerance that a wedge quench over head valve design has.
 
Back in my early college days, just out of the Navy, think '63-'65, i drove taxls on weekends. The older Checkers had Continentals but their newer ones had chebby sixes. Never got to drive one of the newer ones.
 
Interestingly enough the Ford flathead is still made in France and available as a new engine. The Harley flathead ran from 1930 to 1973 one of the longest flathead runs. Harley raced flatheads up into the 1970s .
 

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