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Electric Company and Solar

J

john in la

Well-known Member
Location
What part of in La do you not understand
Years ago we have companies build a national grid system to provide electricity to every house.
When a hurricane or ice storm comes threw we complain when the grid is not repaired in 24 hours.

Then we invent solar panels and to make the cost cheaper we force electric companies to buy the excess electricity during the day and sell it back to us at night; thus eliminating the costly batteries needed for true solar power.

Now we have a state in a effort to reduce green house gasses; that is forcing every new house built to have solar panels installed on the roof. Yea you guessed it California.

So I have to wonder what we will do when the electric company feels it is not profitable to just provide a grid and a electric generating facility that is only needed at night and shuts the whole operation down.
 
For sure an interesting topic and one which many will likely have a good opinion on. What I don't understand is what "kind" of electricity is generated by a solar panel? Like AC or DC, what voltage (or whatever electrical term is applied) and where does it "go" once it leaves the panel (to your house or to the whole grid or where)? Is it then converted to another category of electricity and where it that all done and then storage of power puzzles me. To me, the whole thing is a bit confusing. I should Google it but this is easier just waiting for YT'ers to chime in.
 
(quoted from post at 08:48:07 05/12/18) Years ago we have companies build a national grid system to provide electricity to every house.
When a hurricane or ice storm comes threw we complain when the grid is not repaired in 24 hours.

Then we invent solar panels and to make the cost cheaper we force electric companies to buy the excess electricity during the day and sell it back to us at night; thus eliminating the costly batteries needed for true solar power.

Now we have a state in a effort to reduce green house gasses; that is forcing every new house built to have solar panels installed on the roof. Yea you guessed it California.

So I have to wonder what we will do when the electric company feels it is not profitable to just provide a grid and a electric generating facility that is only needed at night and shuts the whole operation down.
Click to expand...
ust keep adding distribution fees as needed to maintain return on investment. Here, the distribution fee is pretty much equal to the generated power fee.
 
That is a very good piont about shutting the plants down. The electric company is a business, they watch thier numbers and will adjust accordingly. I bet there are a bunch of lawmakers in CA that hadn't thought of that.
 
I think solar is a good additional source of energy conversion. The biggest problem we have is energy storage. I think batteries are one of the worst storage systems.

Here is how I hope to work the system.

Convert energy into electrical by whatever means you have, solar, wind or even steam. Generate more than enough energy than your consumption during your peak energy conversion times. For instance convert more sunlight into electrical than you can use during the daytime. But how do you store that extra? In summer, I would use the extra to chill or freeze a large quantity of water in my basement or storage area. Then at night I would use that stored "cold" to cool my home. In the winter, I would be heating that quantity of water and warming my house with the stored energy.

With the advent of LEDs, our lighting energy consumption has be greatly reduced. OK, you might need some battery power to move the stored water energy but that would be minimal.
 

Very good question and an interesting subject for sure. I have no idea what, if anything, the leadership in Kalifornia is thinking, but they sure are off the rails in many ways.

I just cannot understand why they seem to hate America so much. Not that the solar is a sign of hating America per se, but so many other things they do are contrary to American best interest. I do not understand.
 
It is a complicated subject. Australia is doing well with solar assist from housing. Not a perfect solution, but it is working.

California is blessed with lots of sunshine and it happens that sunshine and A/C seem to happen at the same time. That works well together.

In any event the power company has to have spinning reserve to accommodate spikes in power consumption and loss of outside power (clouds) so they don't save anything on generation but they do save on fuel, some. Companies are pretty good at lobbying their regulators for a rate structure which gives them reimbursement. Deregulation has not saved anybody any money in utility power (or turnpike fees, by the way).

There are lots of pumped storage schemes from pumping water up a hill to a reservoir to compressing air into underground caverns during times of excess power. Then the storage can be used to supplement power during peak periods or, in the case of solar, at night.

There is an advantage to having power come from all over as that diminishes the load on trunk lines. With modern inverters the solar panel can cheaply provide exactly the right voltage and frequency to satisfy the grid.

I am not for more government and more regulation however in power supply to people who can't take care of themselves (I could live off grid) public utilities make sense.

And you could not pay me enough to live in the land of the fruits and nuts.
 
It is a complicated subject. Australia is doing well with solar assist from housing. Not a perfect solution, but it is working.

California is blessed with lots of sunshine and it happens that sunshine and A/C seem to happen at the same time. That works well together.

In any event the power company has to have spinning reserve to accommodate spikes in power consumption and loss of outside power (clouds) so they don't save anything on generation but they do save on fuel, some. Companies are pretty good at lobbying their regulators for a rate structure which gives them reimbursement. Deregulation has not saved anybody any money in utility power (or turnpike fees, by the way).

There are lots of pumped storage schemes from pumping water up a hill to a reservoir to compressing air into underground caverns during times of excess power. Then the storage can be used to supplement power during peak periods or, in the case of solar, at night.

There is an advantage to having power come from all over as that diminishes the load on trunk lines. With modern inverters the solar panel can cheaply provide exactly the right voltage and frequency to satisfy the grid.

I am not for more government and more regulation however in power supply to people who can't take care of themselves (I could live off grid) public utilities make sense.

And you could not pay me enough to live in the land of the fruits and nuts.
 
It is a complicated subject. Australia is doing well with solar assist from housing. Not a perfect solution, but it is working.

California is blessed with lots of sunshine and it happens that sunshine and A/C seem to happen at the same time. That works well together.

In any event the power company has to have spinning reserve to accommodate spikes in power consumption and loss of outside power (clouds) so they don't save anything on generation but they do save on fuel, some. Companies are pretty good at lobbying their regulators for a rate structure which gives them reimbursement. Deregulation has not saved anybody any money in utility power (or turnpike fees, by the way).

There are lots of pumped storage schemes from pumping water up a hill to a reservoir to compressing air into underground caverns during times of excess power. Then the storage can be used to supplement power during peak periods or, in the case of solar, at night.

There is an advantage to having power come from all over as that diminishes the load on trunk lines. With modern inverters the solar panel can cheaply provide exactly the right voltage and frequency to satisfy the grid.

I am not for more government and more regulation however in power supply to people who can't take care of themselves (I could live off grid) public utilities make sense.

And you could not pay me enough to live in the land of the fruits and nuts.
 
It is a complicated subject. Australia is doing well with solar assist from housing. Not a perfect solution, but it is working.

California is blessed with lots of sunshine and it happens that sunshine and A/C seem to happen at the same time. That works well together.

In any event the power company has to have spinning reserve to accommodate spikes in power consumption and loss of outside power (clouds) so they don't save anything on generation but they do save on fuel, some. Companies are pretty good at lobbying their regulators for a rate structure which gives them reimbursement. Deregulation has not saved anybody any money in utility power (or turnpike fees, by the way).

There are lots of pumped storage schemes from pumping water up a hill to a reservoir to compressing air into underground caverns during times of excess power. Then the storage can be used to supplement power during peak periods or, in the case of solar, at night.

There is an advantage to having power come from all over as that diminishes the load on trunk lines. With modern inverters the solar panel can cheaply provide exactly the right voltage and frequency to satisfy the grid.

I am not for more government and more regulation however in power supply to people who can't take care of themselves (I could live off grid) public utilities make sense.

And you could not pay me enough to live in the land of the fruits and nuts.
 
Solar grids produce DC power. But that can be changed to AC compatable with AC provided by the grid. Your panels simply are another generator on the grid. When they produce more than you are using, excess goes out on the grid and power company doesn't have to work so hard. When you are using more than you can create, power flows from the grid to your use. Oscillating electrons are oscillating electrons. You can't claim any as as yours or theirs.
 
It is a complicated subject. Australia is doing well with solar assist from housing. Not a perfect solution, but it is working.

California is blessed with lots of sunshine and it happens that sunshine and A/C seem to happen at the same time. That works well together.

In any event the power company has to have spinning reserve to accommodate spikes in power consumption and loss of outside power (clouds) so they don't save anything on generation but they do save on fuel, some. Companies are pretty good at lobbying their regulators for a rate structure which gives them reimbursement. Deregulation has not saved anybody any money in utility power (or turnpike fees, by the way).

There are lots of pumped storage schemes from pumping water up a hill to a reservoir to compressing air into underground caverns during times of excess power. Then the storage can be used to supplement power during peak periods or, in the case of solar, at night.

There is an advantage to having power come from all over as that diminishes the load on trunk lines. With modern inverters the solar panel can cheaply provide exactly the right voltage and frequency to satisfy the grid.

I am not for more government and more regulation however in power supply to people who can't take care of themselves (I could live off grid) public utilities make sense.

And you could not pay me enough to live in the land of the fruits and nuts.
 
If I was building new,I'd put solar panels on it for sure,but to heat water,not to make electricity.
 
Most panels create electricity that is DC and in the 9 to 24 volt range. That power is then run through a converter to create the 120VAC power. Many systems now are no longer attached to the grid. People instead have a secondary system in the house, some times with a relay, so the solar power is used for things in the home, but when the solar power level drops, it switches back to the grid connection.
The big problem with solar is that the electric companies need to maintain enough capacity to meet demand. On a nice sunny day there could be quite a bit of demand met by solar, but if a storm system rolled through, that solar would be interrupted, and then the utility would have to bring additional generating capacity on line to avoid brown outs. It takes time to get a boiler fired and up to capacity. I used to operate a small production boiler, 1.2 million horse power. It took over an hour to start that thing from cold. If I remember correctly, the power company is required to maintain operation at something like 140% of projected demand. In other words, if, based on history, demand for a Saturday in May is projected to be 1,000 megawatts, they need to have generating capacity on line to produce 1,400 megawatts even if actual demand is running at say 800 megawatts because solar or wind power is generating 200 megawatts.
The companies constantly monitor demand. If an unusually hot day causes demand to spike, as soon as they cross a threshold of 80% consumption, they need to bring generators on line to get back to the 70% line. Those are the numbers I remember from decades ago. It could have changed.
 
You are missing the obvious: the customer is being forced to pay the cost of a small power generation plant, most likely a mandated size that will create a surplus, then they will be forced to sell the surplus back at about 1/2 the cost to buy it on the open market. Wow. Modern day financial slavery. Or share crop methods. Or what the railroads did to small farmers in the Midwest 120 years ago. Or the company town, company store thing. New technology, old story.

What happens if the homeowner decides to use less power by turning things in their house off? The equation works out even better for the power company. And, the obvious next step is all homeowners that want to ?add on? to their house or get a permit to renovate. It will be all houses eventually. All.
 
How quickly we forget. <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_electricity_crisis">California had an experiment with deregulation back in the nineties.</a> If there's anything Californians learned from that experience, it is that unregulated public utilities cannot be trusted to do the right thing. Given that experience, reducing reliance on commercial power generation makes a lot of sense.

Although solar technology has come a long way, it still can't produce power when the sun doesn't shine. But that is not an insolvable problem. The most obvious solution to this problem is already taking place: replace coal generating plants with natural gas. Gas generation plants do a much better job of producing peaking power than do coal plants, and peak power generation is much more profitable than base generation. Another solution is to recycle used electric vehicle batteries as storage for solar energy; a battery that's no longer good enough to use in a vehicle can still store a lot of power for home use.
 
> I just cannot understand why they seem to hate America so much.

Really.

One could argue that California IS America, and the other states are just along for the ride.
It has the largest population of any state.
It has the largest economy of any state.
It has the third largest surface area of any state.

CA also has a greater socioeconomic diversity than just about any other state. It has two of the largest metropolitan areas in the country, yet most of the state is rural. If you think California is a single, homogeneous blue state, you are quite mistaken.

What seems to irritate folks about California is not its "hatred" of American, but its unwillingness to be told what to do. That's a characteristic admired of Texas and scorned of California. Californians are willing to experiment with new ideas. Sometimes that works out, sometimes not. When it does work out, the rest of the country eventually follows suit. CA was a leader in electric power deregulation, that was a bust. CA was the first state to legalize medical MJ, now it's legal in a majority of states.
 
I read the other day that Ca. has the fifth largest economy in the world. They seem to have a budget surplus this year if the facts are correct. Folks from my state eat lots of produce grown there. Much of our technology originated there. If the majority of folks there are ok with it I am. Whatever happened to those guys that holler about states rights.
 
The greatest thing California is a leader in is big government. It's only a short hop away from becoming a socialist state. The left brags about the big economy and money but never brags about the tax rate, or being one of the most restrictive regulated states in the nation. Last year the state passed over 1000 pieces of legislation. This country wasn't founded getting rich but the idea of people having the most freedom with minimal government interference, unfortunately California has covinced it's citizens that they cannot survive without big government
 
Sure reduces the power companies risk and cost if they can run the plants and grid they have instead of building new plants. Local generation can reduce the size of transmission and distribution facilities too.
 
I was shocked when John Phipps was telling on US Farm Report that Los Angeles County alone had a higher population than most states in the country. In this link,you'll see that there are only 8 states with a higher population than L.A. County. What happens there eventually happens in the rest of the country,good or bad.
Population
 
Just one more freedom being taken away from the people. Gov. has no place in telling the people they HAVE to do this or that with things like solar panels and CA. is likely top be starting the ball rolling for other starts if not the U.S. Gov to do the same thing. Most new laws pasted now day are a slow but sure chipping away of our freedoms
 

The power utilities are forced to pay a subsidizes wholesale rate to green power but still charge the same retail price . We have to spill water over the dams at 4 or 5 cents per Kwhr , pay wind 13.5, natural has 16.5 and solar and average of 40.2 cents . Then pay over a billion a year to Neighbouring states .
It costs the utility to operate spinning reserve online generation for when wind and solar fluctuates or fails . Who pays for this ?
Power wholesale price is low at night , spring and fall in particular . Lots of hydraulic production , little heating or AC loads . The weather is also windiest at night and during spring fall.
We have a bunch of do-gooders who want to feel good about themselves by spending other people’s money to save the world . CO2 is less than 0.2% of greenhouse gasses .
 
I expect that if the people there are not happy with the gov. they will vote him out. I believe they have a majority vote winner there. Lots of things are wrong with Ca. just as there are here in my red state where government dependence is extremely high. We have a gov. who decided to use taxpayer funding to help with " The ARK " project which was the brainchild of an Austrailian that believes in Intelligent design/ creationism and obviously taxpayers should not bear any part of that burden. Folks here who live on food stamps and govt. assistance have the gall to make fun of Californians while we contribute very little to the national economy. We eat their produce spend hours on devices that were designed there and seem to never be aware of it.
 
Electronic where not just part of CA. it came form all over the world. Ya a lot of stuff come form CA. like oranges etc. but that does not say a lot of us eat that stuff I know I eat very little from there.

As for some of the rest that you said Many people who live on S.S. have earned it and paid into the system so there just getting back what they paid in like what I have done till I had to retire and I started paying into the system at age 12. I also get VA for service connected problem which that too I earned the right to get
 
IF it ever got to be a problem, which I doubt, the power companies would have to raise their rates to support the grid. Brings back the phrase we have all heard: Be careful what you ask for....
 
It is a complicated subject. Australia is doing well with solar assist from housing. Not a perfect solution, but it is working.

California is blessed with lots of sunshine and it happens that sunshine and A/C seem to happen at the same time. That works well together.

In any event the power company has to have spinning reserve to accommodate spikes in power consumption and loss of outside power (clouds) so they don't save anything on generation but they do save on fuel, some. Companies are pretty good at lobbying their regulators for a rate structure which gives them reimbursement. Deregulation has not saved anybody any money in utility power (or turnpike fees, by the way).

There are lots of pumped storage schemes from pumping water up a hill to a reservoir to compressing air into underground caverns during times of excess power. Then the storage can be used to supplement power during peak periods or, in the case of solar, at night.

There is an advantage to having power come from all over as that diminishes the load on trunk lines. With modern inverters the solar panel can cheaply provide exactly the right voltage and frequency to satisfy the grid.

I am not for more government and more regulation however in power supply to people who can't take care of themselves (I could live off grid) public utilities make sense.

And you could not pay me enough to live in the land of the fruits and nuts.
 
OK, sorry about the multiple posts. I was having modem problems this morning and apparently the message was going out but my computer was frozen.
 
I am retired and using my social security also old. I am talking about a lot of folks here in Ky. that never produced much and take advantage of the system, but continually disparage others. The real problem I see is a resistance to any sort of change. I used to be the same way, but just being against something is not sensible. Solar energy will quite probably an important part of a sustainable economy and society in a future where population growth and many other factors will necessitate more energy production. I am pretty sure of one thing, no one wants to lose power because of overloaded systems. I have gotten used to electricity and I like it.
 
The solar panels will never shut down the electric company.

They have a simple business plan, buy wholesale, sell retail.

Not sure if it's allowed everywhere, but in Texas, a fixed rate contract is the cheapest way to go. In those contracts, you are required to use x KWH of power per month or get penalized with a higher rate.

How's that for encouraging conserving power!!! Think some lobbyists were greasing some palms for that one! LOL

So, if a person were able to successfully drop their consumption by feeding power back through the meter, they would fall under the minimum KWH and their rate would increase, thus wiping out any savings to the consumer, and lining the pockets of the provider!
 
Just finished a solar install on my camper and am in the 'shakedown cruise' process now. Been here 2 or 3 days and am running totally off solar. Full size residential refrigerator, microwave and got a pot of soup beans cooking in the crockpot. Water heater is propane or I run off generator.

Solar is awesome!
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> ...there are only 8 states with a higher population than L.A. County.

Not only that, but what we generally think of as "Los Angeles" spills into four other counties. Orange County alone has three million residents; LA and Orange counties combined would be in fifth place among states.

Interestingly, pretty much everybody in LA moved there from somewhere else, or are first or second generation descendants of those who did. As bad as most folks think LA is, those who moved there don't seem to be interested in moving back to where they came from. My mom grew up in Oklahoma in the thirties; most of her relatives moved to California and never returned.
 
It is good to see someone, even if California, push for reduction in energy consumption, too bad the current administration has no forward thinking ability. It is in our national security interests to continue to reduce our energy consumption while increasing our production so we are self sufficient. The prior administration got a lot of bashing, but we are almost energy independent because of their forward thinking.
 
elton fancher- Did you see on the news today where a company is going to build a factory to make solar batteries in Pikeville?
 
I bet the power companies are all [b:4bfb7dc295]for and pushed[/b:4bfb7dc295] the California legislation into reality.
Every power generation industry is garunteed a profit in the U.S. of A.
And their lobby is big enough to squash any legislation the do not like.
THe only group that wins is the power company and their investors.
 
Solar is just fine but having it force on you by the government is just another way for them to take one more freedom away form the people. Government should have no say in things like this and it should be a choice not a no choice thing. Shoot I have a battery hooked up to a solar charger right now and I almost always have it hooked up on a battery some place.

As far as some who use the system of S.S. and food stamps yep there a lot of them and sadly many of them are illegal in this nation also
 
Ya,I've got an uncle on my mother's side who lives out there. He worked in the aircraft industry. They moved to the Seattle area back before I was even in school,then to California after just a few years. I have several cousins out there but wouldn't have the first clue how to find any of them.
 
Where would one find a used golf cart batterys that would hold a charge if they won,t work fot a cart they are junk ,you need the learn , you don,t know what you are talking about
 
Kent Petersen- There are videos on the net that show people using Tesla batteries salvaged from WRECKED tesla cars. It CAN be done. lol
 
Kent Petersen- Also, There are tons of RV salvage yards around the country full of wrecked RV's. You can salvage batteries from them.

Geez
Poke Here
 
Yup,
California is doing so well that they are showing a net loss of population to other states and there is a serious effort for some areas to secede from the rest of the state.
 
Different locations have different needs, so buildings codes vary between states and between municipalities. In the Midwest we are required to have at least minimum R values of insulation, and air exchangers in all new home construction, because they do save home owners a lot of energy. Those requirements may not be as practical in other places. If what other states actions actually helps them and doesn't affect you, who cares?

I don't see any real connection between the cost of maintaining the electric grid (mostly caused by age and weather) and the amount of electricity transmitted unless demand exceeds the capacity of the grid enough to require upgrades. Local electricity production (solar and wind turbine) should actually help a grid capacity problem.
 
I believe that RV living may well help bring solar to a new high in energy consumption. The enthusiasm for off grid living may be the driving force for new and better solar technology, and that can be transferred to the public at large, although it may take some years.
 
I think people are trying to get out of several states. Poor govt. can be observed in red and blue. Last story I had about Louisiana they were about to throw old folks out of nursing homes. Kansas tax cuts seem a little iffy now that there has been time for reflection. Illinois is in deep poo and NJ taxes are extremely high. My state, [ ky ] has a pension problem, I guess not many states are really in good fiscal health. Picking on CA. is good sport for folks I guess. I hear people do dress funny there.
 
No, I will look into that. I sure think it is a technology that could provide a lot of jobs for americans in the future, just getting them to embrace something new may be difficult.
 
That the EnerBlu company? I guess I spelled that right. They may get some coal miners some jobs. I did not see how many they expected to employ.
 
elton fancher- I gave you a link in my other post. It looks like quite a few jobs.

What part of KY are you from? I'm from the eastern part, 1 hour north of Pikeville.
 
Well, I did not see your link, I have been a little busy, in and out. 875 jobs. I worked at R.R.Donnelley magazines in Glasgow 22 years. They also have a plant in Danville and had several around the country and Mexico. Magazines started dying and they wanted to cut back, and had been for a long time prior to my exit. I left at 55 and although I needed to work longer I am not regretful. Spent a lot of time with the grandsons. It does go to show, or at least it did me, that change is inevitable.
 
Forward thinking? The past administration that you are so proud of blew MILLIONS of tax payer dollars into phony solar companies that went belly up! The best attribute to a good relationship is a short memory.....mine is not so short.
 
Yep an example just across the road from my old office. external_link gave the wind energy company millions of dollars to produce generators and towers. The only thing they produced that worked was the tower the generator sat on. Company declared bankruptcy, guy had to go to another company and spend another quarter million dollars to have another company build a generator to fit the tower. His admin was the most corrupt that has ever been in the White House.
 
https://blog.ospe.on.ca/featured/ontario-wasted-more-than-1-billion-worth-of-clean-energy-in-2016-enough-to-power-760000-homes/
 
buickanddeere-"So why is Ontario wasting all this energy?
?Curtailment is an industry term that means the power was not needed
in Ontario, and could not be exported, so it was dumped. It?s when
we tell our dams to let the water spill over top, our nuclear
generators to release their steam, and our wind turbines not to
turn, even when it?s windy,? said Acchione."

So, they are making more electricity than needed and dumpin the
rest. The dollar amount was not spent but, what could have been paid
for the electricity dumped. Finda way to store that power to use
later, when needed and you will have the solution.
 
A past administration you are so proud of invaded Iraq....how has that worked out for us?? or Iraq?

How short is your memory about the 2008 financial debacle...largest financial crash in 80 years? Maybe you can find someone else to blame?????
 
Bout time you got here. Anyhow, I remember weapons of mass destruction being touted as a reason for war. And there was Iran-Contra, and Watergate. I did not mention Monica, but that really was not important anyhow.
 
Dean, You are a smart guy, a scientific guy. Quit trying to live in a "past" century.
Sails lost to steam, steam lost to gasoline,which lost to diesel...use your intellect.

The 57 Chevy was great....but you could not give it away in today's market.
 
The push by the last administration to reduce coal use caused our local power company to buy expensive so called (clean energy)increasing my electricity bill 40%.But he did not decrease his use of Air Force One that burned fuel at 5000 gals per hour.
 
> Where would one find a used golf cart batterys that would hold a charge if they won,t work fot a cart they are junk ,you need the learn , you don,t know what you are talking about

You might try to learn the difference between an apostrophe and comma. Nobody said anything about golf cart batteries.
Repuposed Tesla batteries
 
I am not pro or con on Caifornia...but if it is such a terrible example...how come they make twice as much per capita as the wonderful places with all the lack of regulations freedoms you espouse?
Seems like the American spirit and creativity embraces a certain amount of cultural regulation which you see as stifling...but the free market reality sees as liberating.
 
Kip, Please come to eastern Kentucky. No regulations, no over riding legal restraints, and no burdensome over zealous government to stop growth and expansion...because there is no growth or expansion. No and it has not been for 40 years. It is just mile after mile of freedom....poverty and freedom...and dispair.
Please tell these out of work folk, with no future ,and no hope, about the horrors of the over regulated California economy.
 
Hay hay hay- LOL, I guess we should be your "Poster" child! I'm from the deepest eastern part of Kentucky and you are correct! There is nothing there. That's why I sold my farm and my Son and I moved out, 3 months ago...looking for a new place.

We embody what you described!
 
(quoted from post at 11:29:48 05/12/18) &gt; ...there are only 8 states with a higher population than L.A. County.

Not only that, but what we generally think of as "Los Angeles" spills into four other counties. Orange County alone has three million residents; LA and Orange counties combined would be in fifth place among states.

Interestingly, pretty much everybody in LA moved there from somewhere else, or are first or second generation descendants of those who did. As bad as most folks think LA is, those who moved there don't seem to be interested in moving back to where they came from. My mom grew up in Oklahoma in the thirties; most of her relatives moved to California and never returned.
Click to expand...

OK CA has a budget surplus if you forget about thier debt. Just the CA government workers pension debt is about 1 trillion dollars. Those in charge ain't talking about that. CA is ranked DEAD LAST in budget transparency! CA's budget is, as usual, full of tricks and questionable accounting. One of the more dubious ploys involves borrowing from special funds. This year, there’s a proposal to borrow $6 billion (with a “b”) from the state’s Surplus Money Investment Fund to reduce the unfunded liability of the state’s pension fund, PERS!

Other things to think about. CA has the largerst number of people on "public assistance. They have 39.5 million people of which 30% are on the take. That's a little more than 11.8 million people. That's over twice the population of KY. I case you haven't been following the news businesses and people a fleeing CA. He's the trick. Businesses take jobs with them as they leave. And the folks fleeing the state? Those with enough income paying taxes. Can you tell that this is a system that's going to eventually collasps like a house of cards? It just isn't sustainable. Funny thing is CA's population is stable in numbers. Where it's in trouble is that most of the new arriavals need public assistance while most of those who are leaving do not. Fella from CA that I talk to claims that in his area there are about 60 applicants for each open job position. Other areas of the country there are jobs and not enough workers.

Rick
 
I can tell you they had those problems for quite a while, did not just happen because they have embraced the idea of solar energy. But I will probably stay right here, in Hickville, where there are jobs that no one wants to work at, but no coal jobs that they are waiting for to return.
 
I believe folks are fleeing several states, Conn. Ca. Michigan Illinois and New Jersey are at the top. Headed for Az. and Idaho. So don't really look like Ky. will have to worry about an influx of those people.
 
Like Congress? The communist party took over right before it happened. It did not help that the Oval office was held by a abundant spender.
 
The Keystone XL pipeline is not forward thinking? Cheaper than rail which enriched Buffet. Resuming drilling in ANWR is not forward thinking? Every drop we get from Alaska is a drop not funding terror states. Removing barriers imposed by previous administrations when they created huge preserves which only served to block drilling in Nevada and Utah sure helps us as well.
While solar sounds good, the cells are made in China with technology ripped off from Germany but with out hte ecological safe guards the EU imposed. It cuts production costs, but the waste getting dumped on farm land is a disaster.
 
I started life in the farm country of WI. Moved to CA with my family at a young age in the late 50s. It was - paradise. The CA of the 50s, and through the late 70s was a wonderful place to be. Yes - we enacted many regulations, but the population more than doubled between '55 and '75. Air quality in LA 1968 was horrible. You could see what you were breathing quite easily. We had to do something. Too many people, cars, heavy industry, ships. We had to do something.

The change started in the early-70s with the rise of the baby boomers. Haight-Ashbury, free love, Vietnam, reduction in military in San Diego, Oakland, etc. Things sort of stagnated. Money was still coming in, but the population started to [u:7098a78f60]expect[/u:7098a78f60] everything to just fall in their lap. No more hard work, no more trying, no more struggle, just show up - and demand respect. Kind of sad.

I went to UCLA engineering school after the army. I was on an island there. Everyone else outside the eng school was in lock-step. We were pariahs. I could see where it was going, but I stayed. I found a place where I could flourish, outside of the metro places. Stayed another 12 years, until I just couldn't take it anymore.

We left for Texas. I've been here for more than 20 years, and it's been wonderful. Good work, hard work, decent schools(one needs to be selective), honest people, and yes - fewer regulations. But, regulation is coming to TX too. Just at a slower pace.

I might be the classic case of the diorama that was CA. Still own property there, and still making money from them.

As for the solar requirement for NEW houses. Here's the thing - new houses means new people moving in. New people need infrastructure. Roads, water, sewer, schools, playgrounds, and yes, electricity too.

That either means new power stations, transformers, poles, wires, more transformers, etc. Now, we can't get rid of the wires, poles and transformers, but we can distribute the power stations. I'm not sure if residential solar is the right way to go, but it is one way to go. The primary stress on the grid is from 9AM until 6PM. Those are the hours that solar can do the most good for reducing the need for new power stations.

So CA has decided to push the infrastructure costs back to the lowest level, to the new homeowners. It really isn't much different than requiring a developer to put in streets, or add lanes to existing roads when they put in a new housing development. The developer passes those costs along to the new homeowner.

Take a look at N Dallas suburbs, or west Houston suburbs sometime. This is what happens when houses are added without thinking about the infrastructure loads in public planning. They have strains on fresh water, sewage, and worst of all traffic. Almost every secondary road is crushed with traffic from 8-6. It's a universal issue, and CA is trying to minimize it by adding many small power gens to the grid. It can work, but it's a costly way to solve the infrastructure issues with new housing. But - something has to be done.
 
[i:654c4848f0]It is a complicated subject Australia is doing well with solar assist from housing. Not a perfect solution, but it is working.
[/i:654c4848f0]

We need a mix. We're not ready for 100% residential solar, but a little bit will help us learn what we need to know. PV on every house will cause more trouble than it's worth. Solar is very inefficient and [i:654c4848f0]producing[/i:654c4848f0] the PV arrays pollute more than burning coal. Payback times are on the order of the life of the panels, so it doesn't (yet) make economic sense, even with government subsidies in most locations.

[i:654c4848f0]California is blessed with lots of sunshine and it happens that sunshine and A/C seem to happen at the same time. That works well together. [/i:654c4848f0]

But not at the same [b:654c4848f0]place[/b:654c4848f0]. Too much residential solar leads to the curtailment mentioned above. Folks throttle back their AC and head into work. Lot's of power could [i:654c4848f0] potentially[/i:654c4848f0] be produced during the heat of the day, but it's needed in at work (to run those ACs, machinery, computers, etc), not out at the house. Our current grid is designed for one-way energy flow from the generators to the homes. It's not set up for large power flow the other way, and too much generation in the residential areas causes voltage spikes and damages equipment (both the inverters and the household stuff like expensive TVs and such). Hence the need to curtail and waste all of that potential power. We're working on solutions, but insisting on 100% solar at residences [b:654c4848f0]at this time[/b:654c4848f0] is counter-productive. Stupid "feel good" measures like the "coal fired" Prius the guys voting on this trash are driving.

[i:654c4848f0]In any event the power company has to have spinning reserve to accommodate spikes in power consumption and loss of outside power (clouds) so they don't save anything on generation but they do save on fuel, some. [/i:654c4848f0]

This is just plain wrong. Without the PV we can burn cheap coal and nuclear for the base. When the clouds come over we've got to fire up short-term generators (natural gas if you're lucky, diesel in certain regions of the country at certain times of the year). This costs much more (in dollars) than just having the coal or nuclear base would have cost. The jury is still out on the pollution when all factors are considered (coal vs. diesel, coal comes in on a train vs. diesel being trucked in, etc) but it's a net loss if the pollution and resources to build and install the PV is considered.


[i:654c4848f0]...There are lots of pumped storage schemes from pumping water up a hill to a reservoir to compressing air into underground caverns during times of excess power. Then the storage can be used to supplement power during peak periods or, in the case of solar, at night.[/i:654c4848f0]


Yep. Storage is key to using all of these non-dispatchable resources. If we can solve that residential solar for those on the grid will start to make economic sense (in [i:654c4848f0]some[/i:654c4848f0] cases, but never for everybody).

[i:654c4848f0]There is an advantage to having power come from all over as that diminishes the load on trunk lines. With modern inverters the solar panel can cheaply provide exactly the right voltage and frequency to satisfy the grid. [/i:654c4848f0]

There are advantages and disadvantages, as discussed above. Having to curtail so as to not overload the grid when load drops during peak solar times adversely effects payback times and make solar even less economically viable. If we were designing from scratch with a new grid and business/residential mixed just right we could take much more advantage. Given the current grid and the existing locations of residential vs. business we have a lot of work to do to gain the theoretical benefits.



[i:654c4848f0]And you could not pay me enough to live in the land of the fruits and nuts.[/i:654c4848f0]

This I agree with 100%!
 
(quoted from post at 20:52:01 05/12/18) buickanddeere-"So why is Ontario wasting all this energy?
?Curtailment is an industry term that means the power was not needed
in Ontario, and could not be exported, so it was dumped. It?s when
we tell our dams to let the water spill over top, our nuclear
generators to release their steam, and our wind turbines not to
turn, even when it?s windy,? said Acchione."

So, they are making more electricity than needed and dumpin the
rest. The dollar amount was not spent but, what could have been paid
for the electricity dumped. Finda way to store that power to use
later, when needed and you will have the solution.
Click to expand...


This is a fundamental problem that all these armchair environmental expects do not understand .
There is no cost effective , safe, reliable and efficient way to store 1000's of mega watt hours of electricity. The numbers are too large for 98% of the population to visualize without a graphical display.
 
We need a mix. We're not ready for 100% residential solar, but a little bit will help us learn what we need to know. PV on every house will cause more trouble than it's worth. Solar is very inefficient and [i:f4a057535d]producing[/i:f4a057535d] the PV arrays pollute more than burning coal. Payback times are on the order of the life of the panels, so it doesn't (yet) make economic sense, even with government subsidies in most locations.

[i:f4a057535d]California is blessed with lots of sunshine and it happens that sunshine and A/C seem to happen at the same time. That works well together. [/i:f4a057535d]

But not at the same [b:f4a057535d]place[/b:f4a057535d]. Too much residential solar leads to the curtailment mentioned above. Folks throttle back their AC and head into work. Lot's of power could [i:f4a057535d] potentially[/i:f4a057535d] be produced during the heat of the day, but it's needed in at work (to run those ACs, machinery, computers, etc), not out at the house. Our current grid is designed for one-way energy flow from the generators to the homes. It's not set up for large power flow the other way, and too much generation in the residential areas causes voltage spikes and damages equipment (both the inverters and the household stuff like expensive TVs and such). Hence the need to curtail and waste all of that potential power. We're working on solutions, but insisting on 100% solar at residences [b:f4a057535d]at this time[/b:f4a057535d] is counter-productive. Stupid "feel good" measures like the "coal fired" Prius the guys voting on this trash are driving.

This is just plain wrong. Without the PV we can burn cheap coal and nuclear for the base. When the clouds come over we've got to fire up short-term generators (natural gas if you're lucky, diesel in certain regions of the country at certain times of the year). This costs much more (in dollars) than just having the coal or nuclear base would have cost. The jury is still out on the pollution when all factors are considered (coal vs. diesel, coal comes in on a train vs. diesel being trucked in, etc) but it's a net loss if the pollution and resources to build and install the PV is considered.


Yep. Storage is key to using all of these non-dispatchable resources. If we can solve that residential solar for those on the grid will start to make economic sense (in [i:f4a057535d]some[/i:f4a057535d] cases, but never for everybody).

There are advantages and disadvantages, as discussed above. Having to curtail so as to not overload the grid when load drops during peak solar times adversely effects payback times and make solar even less economically viable. If we were designing from scratch with a new grid and business/residential mixed just right we could take much more advantage. Given the current grid and the existing locations of residential vs. business we have a lot of work to do to gain the theoretical benefits.
!
Click to expand...

There's a lot wrong here that I would like to address. First, lets address the load issue. Our grid is designed to 'float' power. We can add in, or substitute power sources from hundreds, and sometimes thousands of miles away. Solar panels will work just fine s they are highly distributed, and are protected behind the transformer which steps the high voltage down to useable voltages at the home. Modern grid-tie inverters and cutouts will protect the grid from spikes. Any stray high voltage spikes that may get through the inverter will be saturated at the transformer, and the voltage will be converted to heat, and some ringing in the waveform momentarily.

The newest type of power dist transformers are better designed to incorporate solar panel supply current. and handle the reversal current more efficiently. Also, modern homes have dozens of 'always-on' devices which consume small amounts of current even during the day when homeowners are away. Since each home will have its own power source, all the power that would normally be downloaded from the central power plant will not be needed, and that power(and reserve) at the main power plant will be directed to those commercial needs as you mentioned.

A home panel grid-tie system is complex, and robust due to requirements of the local supplier. They will accurately phase-lock sense, and they will cut out within milliseconds of a loss of power from the grid. Fortunately, transformers don't know if they are step-down(distribution from central station) or step-up(many individual panel provider into grid). A home with ten 285W panels will put out a nominal 2000W under best-case mid-day conditions. If the home it's on is only using 200W/hour over the mid-day, there's plenty of current flowing right back out the home and up the wire, through the transformer, and into the grid. Multiply this by 100 homes, and you've got a nice pile of current flowing into the comm districts.

As for efficiency, PV has gotten much, much better in the past 10 years. While they are not as efficient as some other means, the payback for the [u:f4a057535d]mfg costs[/u:f4a057535d] has come down to 4-6 years for retail panels. The [u:f4a057535d]system[/u:f4a057535d] cost payback is around 7-15 years, depending on the panel system cost, size, price/KW, and the avoided or price paid by the util.

It is nearly ready for prime time with the price/KW falling by 65% in the past 10 years. Also, the modern panels have lifespan of more than 30 years now, with less than 15% output decline. Solar is great for off-grid. I've installed 4 off-grid systems, and only one grid-tie. Off grid is difficult to size, because most users don't realize how much power they use, or mis-use. One of my clients wanted a large fridge, and when I told them it would require ~$1800. in batteries to run continuous, they switched to a smaller LP fridge. Off grid lifestyle is quite a bit different than on-grid.

As for economic viability, it's not up to coal fired, or oil fired but getting better. And for place where there is infrastructure already in place, distributed power via solar is one plan. It may not be the best plan, but it's not the worst. One other benefit, Just like hiring a plumbing crew to come in and pipe 50 homes at a time, there is significant cost savings with scale. Having 50 grid-tie 2KW systems installed at once will cut about 25-40% of the retail price of a single home install.

I'm not fully sold, but my experience so far is that it might be a good idea for LA metro, SD metro, and inland areas. Coastal, not so much.
 
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