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Tree branches sparking on power line

B

BrianV_

Member
So... I'm sure someone here has dealt with this.

I have a utility pole on my property from which power runs to my house and barn. By my local power company's rules, all wires leading to / from that pole are my responsibility.

We had a windstorm last night that must have shifted things and now I have a tree branch sparking against the power line between the pole at the road and 'my' pole.

I'm not immediately concerned about fire as the branch is live and there's nothing really to catch around it, but I should deal with it. It's a high voltage line - the transformer is on 'my' pole, which also makes it 'my' transformer (and cost to replace someday).

Anyone ever had to deal with this? Since branches (and trees) can conduct power, I don't want to cut it myself. And it's high enough I can't really get to it anyways, even standing in my loader (weak tractor reference to try to keep this out of the OT forum).

The power company offers one free disconnect per year, but they only give you a 24 hour window for the disconnection, and a 24 hour window for the reconnection. Which means you need a day in the middle as if you set these on consecutive days, they can disconnect your power at 10:00PM and reconnect it at 7:00AM the next morning, and that has happened. to others.

Anyways, I may do that and just accept the 24-72 hour potential power outage length and hire someone to trim the branches while the power is out... but I wanted to see if anyone here has any suggestions. I'm really not sure where else I would ask this kind of question and get decent responses.
 
Where I live in Iowa that branch would be the power company’s problem. The power company owns the transformer and the power lines leading up to the transformer. The property owner owns everything after the meter.
 
Unfortunately, our local company (Hydro One - Ontario) has this rule:

[b:7e212fcbde]Who is responsible?[/b:7e212fcbde]

We are responsible for vegetation management on road allowances, but not tree trimming or maintenance of trees and vegetation on customer property. This is the responsibility of the owner. See the diagram below to see the difference between our power lines and privately-owned lines.

OUR POWER LINES:
* Usually run along the road
* Not on private property
* Service multiple customers.

PRIVATELY-OWNED POWER LINES:
* On a pole within your property’s boundary
* The pole supports overhead power lines to your home/other buildings on your property
* Does not supply power to other customers.
Click to expand...
 
WOW, never heard of a 7200 Volt line (or more) being the power consumer's responsibility.

Learn something new everyday, reading the posts on here!
 
(quoted from post at 20:09:26 04/06/18) WOW, never heard of a 7200 Volt line (or more) being the power consumer's responsibility.

Learn something new everyday, reading the posts on here!
Click to expand...

Oh, it's ridiculous. Of course, they strongly recommend you don't do your own maintenance on it because it's dangerous and more importantly could damage their equipment... but your cost and bill if it does.
 
Wouldn't you have a meter on that same pole, and with that there should be a main switch disconnect to shut power off to your house? That's the way it is around here.
 
brian I would go for the power outage and hire a tree co. to clean it up. as a journeyman electrician I would not touch it unless the power was off. high voltage can reach a long ways. there is a good chance the power line will burn that branch off especially if the wind keeps blowing.
 
Our local REC would trim that but leave the mess(that is fine by me) I luv our Co-op
 
Can't speak for all places, but every place I've lived, it was the customer responsibility on the customer side of the power meter. The meter and everything on the other side are utility responsibility.

That said, [b:10033653e5]DO NOT[/b:10033653e5] "think" that the branch CANNOT catch on fire. [b:10033653e5]IT CAN!![/b:10033653e5] Electricity will dry it out very quickly.

IF, IF, IF that area really is your responsibility, then I have only one suggestion for you, assuming it's possible (meaning legal) in your area. And that is, either you or someone else who is a very good shot should take a rifle and shoot the limb until it drops away from the wires. Aim for the base of the limb, or wherever looks to be the best hinge point. the more length you can cut off the better, as the weight of the limb hanging over will help to pull the limb down and away.

If your house is surrounded by other homes (we live in the middle of nowhere -- no problem here!), then you will want to forget I ever made this suggestion.

Also, DO NOT attempt to cut the tree down with any kind of saw, including a chainsaw. Moisture in the tree will carry electricity right down to the ground, and possibly to any saw that cuts into it. If there is enough power, it may not even be safe walking too close to the tree.

Only time will tell if your tree will die from the shocks going through it.
 
I use to work with power systems. I agree have the power cut off and clear the lines. If it means cutting the tree down do it. It is
always a good idea to keep lines clear. I would hire a crew that knows what they are doing. Not Joe Bob that says he does for a cheap
price. Yes you will have people tell you there is no danger. Just don't touch the lines. High voltage can jump and if you have ever
seen what it can do to a body. You would understand.

Have it done the proper way. But get it done.
 
Was on a job once and the electrician told me he cut down a tree on his
property and as it started to fall it contacted the power line. His
chainsaw was still in the cut and luckily the electric jolt knocked him
clear with no injury. Be very careful around that tree!
 
Yes, hire a professional service to trim that tree. They likely have a more frequent connection with your power supplier (pun intended), and may be able to coordinate the outage better than you, the customer can. Or, they may be equipped to work it live, their call.
 
Customers owning power lines is not unusual it always depends on installation costs. There are a lot of companies that do that kind of work for less money than the utilities thus those situations. Hire a tree company to do the whole thing, they can setup the outage and have them trim the whole line while there. A lot of times the utilities will buy the lines and accept the maintenance you might look into that.
 
If the transformer is on "your" pole going to the meter on "your" pole and the tree branch is between the road and "your" pole, it seems to me that side might be the power companies responsibility. Either way DON'T go near it, have the company do it.
 
Your power company must be different than ours. With a call our power company would come trim those tree branches back either
before or after meter.
 
I'm in eastern Ont. as well. Wicked winds here as well. Neighbour booked a day with Hydro to come and shut the power off to trim a bunch of trees. They came first thing in the morning and were back that afternoon after the job was done. No charge.
 
If you are going to hire it done you might find out what the utility company would charge to do it. It might be they wouldn't charge any more than an independent contractor would charge and the power would only be off while they are working if that. They are used to trimming limbs with the power live.
 
I've owned farms in MANY different jurisdictions with MANY different electric utility providers and was a power distribution design engineer and in ALL of those situations:

The "High Voltage Primary" supply (aerial or buried) which may be say 7200 or 9600 or higher volts IS THE UTILITIES RESPONSIBILITY

The "Low Voltage Secondary" which may typically be 120/240 Volt Single Phase Three Wire, typically FROM the utility owned pole mounted transformer or a pad mount TO the customer IS THE CUSTOMERS RESPONSIBILITY

REGARDLESS even if its low voltage secondary a sparking to tree condition NEEDS FIXED and that's NOT a job for an amateur or electrically challenged person

Seeeeeeeeee electrical or legal questions draw the most (including meeeeeeeee) replies, never fails.

John T
 
(quoted from post at 20:00:27 04/06/18) Where I live in Iowa that branch would be the power company’s problem. The power company owns the transformer and the power lines leading up to the transformer. The property owner owns everything after the meter.
Click to expand...

That is how it is here with Mid-American energy. The pole that holds the meter does belong to me, but they own the overhead wire that feeds the meter. Everything after the meter is buried.
 
I do find that very interesting, working on 7200 is not what most electricians are comfortable with. It is not uncommon for the owner to pay for the installation of the line to the transformer
and meter, but that is the property of the utility.

I would call them ASAP.
 
I can't believe you are responsible for high voltage lines and the transformer. I have the same situation in SE MI and the pole, lines and transformer are DTE's to maintain. The pole on my property is 200' from the road.
 
after working the electric utility trade for 42 years i can add a few thoughts as well. first of all, i agree with those that the line is owned and maintained by the electric utility. second, there is more going on than just sparking, each contact means electricity is being consumed without benefit of passing through a customer's electric meter, therefore the utility is incurring losses that affects their profits. granted, it is a small amount but line intrusions in numerous locations over an extended period can have an adverse affect on their line losses. line losses in the US on average is 8-10 percent per year, one reports that as nationwide $19 billion loss a year. electric arcing also has an effect on the quality of your and others electric service; each contact places no resistance in the circuit, therefore; voltage goes down as less force is required for current flow and with no resistance the amps increase in the circuit, again, therefore you see it as arcing. eventually it may burn itself into the clear but will probably get worse so as to affect you and neighbors, possibly to the point of power outages. Call your electric provider.
 
So I just got off the phone with the utility company and they confirmed that the primary voltage line is my responsibility as it connects to a pole on my property and only serves my property.

That said, it sounds like they don't consider it an immediate hazard. They will have the local field office call me during normal business hours some time in the next 5 business days to schedule a time to come out and do an assessment, which is required before they will disconnect. I'll likely have to get a local tree service in to do the trimming.

I walked the like this morning, and it's actually going through several trees on my property. Each tree is touching both the hot and neutral, so there is likely an easier path to ground than going through the trunk. It looks like in most cases, they have burned the close branch creating a small bit of clearance, but I imagine severe wind likely will still cause contact.

I guess we will see what the utility company requires for clearance (even though it's 'my' line). I know along the roads, they require 10' of clearance.... but I suspect that's more so they only have to come past every several years. In my case, that would mean taking down at least once of the trees along my laneway and severely maiming the rest. I'd rather maintain a 3'-5' clearance every year than carving them back to 10' clearance every 5 years.

I'll get in touch with a tree service on Monday to see what they say.
 

Call'em back and say ok.. I will get my ladder and cut the 7.2 kv off per your instructions... And if anyone is injured It will be your policy that is liable.

Bet you will get some attention out of them!!!!!!!! They can claim anything they want, but the 7.2kv is 100% their problem... Just because they dont want to spend money, its still their problem. Did they get an easement for the primary power line? That is further proof that it would be their problem. Even though you had to pay for the power extension, they OWN those poles, wire and transformer. The meter loop is your and the meter pole, if separate, is yours. I was 40 years a utility engineer and it was very very common for the utilities to bluff and bully there way. But usually a stand up and request it in writing, got them to back down in a hurry. If those poles are yours, tell them you will charge them a pole contact fee for each item, every year, as each utility does to others who share their poles.

Down here is it the property owners responsibility to notify them of tree encroachment , but 100% the utility's responsibility to keep the lines clear and safe, once they have been notified on private property. If not notified, you can NOT sue them for damages or power outages due to tree damages on private property,, (or so they claim.) They have crews that periodically clear the power leads, even the ones on our ranch going to the remote wells. And what ever they use to spray the brush works very very very well.
 
Maybe what ever nit-wit that answers the phone is not understanding your problem , have you asked to speak to a supervisor ?
 
I guess we've been lucky then. Both of the electric utilities we've had in the past 20 years (here in MN) have been AWESOME!!
 
As a former tree co owner I'd make certain to have fully explained to someone who seems knowledgeable before incurring any expense yourself for this. In BC, and AB what you described would be the utilities responsibility as others have mentioned.

I have two poles on my property that run to the transformer thst feeds only my house and shop. The bare lines are the utilities responsibility and they come and trim the trees every handful of years. The poles reside 100% on my property and the contractor has to 'trespass' to work on them which they have right of way to do.

Sometimes little legs like yours and mine get forgotten/overlooked. But here they are still the responsibility of the utility. Does no one ever come and test the poles for integrity? Drill a hole near the bottom and check for rot, and then put a little plug in it?
 

That all may be 100% true in the U.S. of A. but he is in Ontario, Canada.

Where the Hydro company can charge a 100% off the grid home or pole barn a monthly fee [i:0d7f33ee07][b:0d7f33ee07]as if[/b:0d7f33ee07][/i:0d7f33ee07] they were connected to the grid.

However, the "rules" posted do not specifically address the transformer, meter, weatherhead and everything upstream on your property being your responsibility or theirs.
They talk about poles and lines but do not mention the industry recognized delineation of responsibility.

My property has four "high power" lines before the xformer then two poles after. The meter box and one pole and conduit to weatherhead is mine but the meter in my box and everything upstream of the weatherhead is the power company responsibility.

The rules posted by Brian V would indicate the power company would have to get his permission to pull "his" fuse on top of the transformer.
 
Sounds like it is time for you to write to your MP and complain. The lines TO your meter should be the responsibility of Hydro not you. Grandparents lived in Ontario, and the way they used to talk Ontario Hydro employees were either great people willing to help, or complete morons. Grandma used to say it must have something to due with the phase of the moon.
 
Well, I got out and measured. *IF* the lines belong to Hydro One (our power utility), they are going to want to clear to 10' from the lines, which would result in several of the maples along my laneway being removed, which I am *not* OK with.

That said, they do *not* have an easement on my property and I will not allow their cutting crew on my property without a written understanding of the parameters for clearing the line.
 
Well I've read the whole thread. I've been a treeman for 34 years, started my career with a utility tree trimming crew similar to Asplundh. Did
that for about 6 years before getting trained and moved on to general tree care and contract climbing. This is in the US not Canada.
With the utility I worked for it was not uncommon to have private lines. Homes back off of the main road. How we could tell is that all utility
poles owned by the power company have pole numbers on them. We would go up a line to the last pole with numbers and one additional span.
After that it was on the customer. Maybe your utility uses a similar situation. Here we do schedule line outages with our utility, this mainly is for
service drops from their pole to a house. Never do they do an outage that affects more than one customer. They either sleeve the wire or trim
to provide 10 feet of clearance. Often called trim for removal so that a competent contractor can trim or remove the tree safely. I doubt they
would do either of these for a private line as that is the customers responsibility. A responsible contractor such as the one I work for probably
would not schedule an outage for this work, especially if we could use a bucket truck on the trees in question.
Sorry so long winded, check for pole number and you will have a better idea on who owns what, John.
 
Hello Ian ..... while I am sure there are recommended channels one might go through to get this all straightened out, some of them even governmental, are you really serious about contacting your MP? A lot of people would think you are kidding (me included).
 
If you want to save your trees, perhaps you could pay to have the power line moved away from your tree line?

When utilities pay the cost to trim trees, it is not uncommon for them to trim all potential problem limbs back to the tree trunk or tree stump to prevent the problem from happening again within the next 20 years. They can't justify spending thousands of dollars each trip to trim the same trees over and over again every two to five years.

Please consider your neighbors in your decisions. Eventually the trees will take down the power line, when that happens how many of your neighbors will loose power? Repair crews may not assign a high priority to repair your outage if you have caused them a lot of grief about protecting your trees and then those trees cause an unnecessary outage. How will your neighbors react when they learn they lost power for an extended length of time because one guy refused to allow his trees to be trimmed?

It sounds like your tree line might be well worth the several thousand dollars it could cost to move the power line.
 
If it is indeed a LAW that the lines are yours, then it is only through your elected officials can the law be changed. I thought that MP was shorthand for Member of Parliament, but maybe I'm mistaken. From dealing with local officials here I know whining does not get you anywhere, but getting a new law might.
 
Well, I guess you're right, at least according to the way things are supposed to work. But in reality, not sure how often any of that ever changes.
 
well brian it looks like they have offered to cut the trees now its you that is setting boundaries ether you let them cut the trees back 10 feet at there cost or you pay to get them cut seams pretty simple 🙀
 
My property is all wooded. When I had electric service brought onto my place the utility company required a 30' easement with not so much as a twig hanging over in that space. Not wanting that I had them run the power underground.
 

Even if it is your responsibility ,a do it yourselfer saving money working on power utility distribution systems . The situation ends with equipment damage, injury and death.
Call Hydro One and stay well back from the tree . Voltage gradients can kill just by walking towards the scene .
 
Just to bring this all full circlue:

Finally talked to the local field office. The pole on my property is considered mine, and the primary voltage lines running to it are also my responsibility.

So, I am having my electrical disconnected next Friday, and have hired a local tree trimming company to come in and clear all the interfering vegetation for $800 CAD. This works for me as the trees will only be trimmed as aggressively as I want to, I got some firewood and wood chips, and no risk of death.
 
(quoted from post at 12:15:02 04/07/18) Sounds like it is time for you to write to your MP and complain. The lines TO your meter should be the responsibility of Hydro not you. Grandparents lived in Ontario, and the way they used to talk Ontario Hydro employees were either great people willing to help, or complete morons. Grandma used to say it must have something to due with the phase of the moon.
Click to expand...

MPP for provincial ,MP for Federal.
 
(quoted from post at 09:15:02 04/07/18) Grandparents lived in Ontario, and the way they used to talk Ontario Hydro employees were either great people willing to help, or complete morons. Grandma used to say it must have something to due with the phase of the moon.
Click to expand...

I've got nothing against the bottom end Hydro guys. They make good money, have gold plated pensions and a powerful union working for them. If I could get their kind of compensation and security, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

However, I strongly dislike Hydro One as a corporation. They exist primarily to funnel money into the provincial government's hands from the citizens. Now, they have privatised just enough to get them out from requiring independent oversight and accountability by the Provincial Ombudsman...

A few years ago, I read over their financial statements. In that year, they had an old loan for something like $100M at 6.xx% was finally coming off the books. In the same month that they got out of paying the old loan, they immediately took a new loan for $300M at 2.xx%, so that their monthly debt servicing costs and cashflow remained the same.

They declared $700M in profit to their shareholder (the Province - pre privatization) that year.

With $700M in profit paid out of the company that year, there was no need for Hydro to take out a $300M loan. That was done solely so the government could get extra funds at the expense of the Hydro ratepayer. Meanwhile, the cost of servicing the debt is built into our Hydro bills.

The bottom line is Hydro One as a corporation is just another taxation vehicle with a government granted monopoly.
 
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