RE: RRLUND et. al., i.e. tax review

This is about the property-tax Board of Review meeting. The one where the members refused to identify themselves to me and then called the sheriff on me to have me removed because I took more then 5 minutes of their time. Seems to me they violated the law.
Town is required to keep minutes showing which board members were there and have those minutes available to the public. Violation of such is a misdemeanor.

Lots of legal mumbo-jumbo.


From the state: "Michigan Board of Review must be conducted as an open public
meeting as provided in Act 267, P.A. 1976, Open Meetings Act."

Township Supervisor shall be the Secretary of the Board of Review and keep a
record of proceedings and changes made to the roll and file the record with the
Township or City Clerk. If there are multiple Boards conducting hearings or if the
Supervisor is absent, the Board must elect a Secretary. MCL 211.33. (Appendix)

The State Tax Commission requires that all Boards of Review maintain appropriate
documentation of their decisions including: minutes, a copy of the form 4035 and a copy
of the form 4035a whenever the Board of Review makes a change that causes the
Taxable Value to change. The 4035 must include a detailed reason why the Board
made their determination.

Minutes must include:
a) Date, time and place of meetings.
b) Members present and members absent and notation of any correspondence
received.


Who keeps the minutes and documentation?
Minutes and documentation should be filed with the Clerk of the local unit of
government.


Michigan's Freedom of Information Act 2015

The Michigan Freedom of Information Act gives the public the right to request to inspect and receive copies of public records, and to subscribe to regular issuances of public records. Recent amendments to the FOIA took effect July 1, 2015.

15.263 Meetings, decisions, and deliberations of public body; requirements; attending or
addressing meeting of public body; tape-recording, videotaping, broadcasting, and
telecasting proceedings; rules and regulations; exclusion from meeting; exemptions.
Sec. 3. (1) All meetings of a public body shall be open to the public and shall be held in a place available
to the general public. All persons shall be permitted to attend any meeting except as otherwise provided in this
act. The right of a person to attend a meeting of a public body includes the right to tape-record, to videotape,
to broadcast live on radio, and to telecast live on television the proceedings of a public body at a public
meeting. The exercise of this right shall not be dependent upon the prior approval of the public body.
However, a public body may establish reasonable rules and regulations in order to minimize the possibility of
disrupting the meeting.
(2) All decisions of a public body shall be made at a meeting open to the public.
(3) All deliberations of a public body constituting a quorum of its members shall take place at a meeting
open to the public except as provided in this section and sections 7 and 8.
(4) A person shall not be required as a condition of attendance at a meeting of a public body to register or
otherwise provide his or her name or other information or otherwise to fulfill a condition precedent to
attendance.
(5) A person shall be permitted to address a meeting of a public body under rules established and recorded
by the public body. The legislature or a house of the legislature may provide by rule that the right to address
may be limited to prescribed times at hearings and committee meetings only.
(6) A person shall not be excluded from a meeting otherwise open to the public except for a breach of the
peace actually committed at the meeting

Did you request the mimutes?

It appears you have them in a violation, our board of review, the minutes are taken by either the township supervisor, or one of the members of the board of review if the supervisor is not there, the minutes are signed by all members present, and are kept at the township hall, the supervisor should be able to get a copy of them for you. As for having the police remove you for taking more than 5 minutes, well, all i can say is we had one person who took over an hour on their protest, we did not even consider calling the police, it is your right to complain, we do not have to like it, and we may not act on it, but we do have to listen.

what you have described here is insane. good luck. I am a township supervisor, so I have been thru this process.

I think this should be on Reality TV somewhere. As to its interest to the YT community on "Tractor Talk", time will tell. Where's Judge Judy when she's really needed? Yah I know, if I don't like it then don't read it !!!

I agree the meeting was a bit "odd." One problem is the township supervisor is the grandfather of the assessor. He goes nuts when anyone says anything negative about the assessor. To be more specific - the township uses an assessing "company" that is comprised of the supervisor's grandson and wife.

Note - the room was empty. Nobody there for the meeting except for my family. Me, my wife, and 14 year-old boy. We drove 80 miles in a snow-storm to get there. Note also this is the 9th year we have had to protest our taxes. We have prevailed every year so far.

So we walked in and there were five people. Four at a table and one at a desk with a laptop computer. Nobody would identify themselves. When I asked who everyone was - one person said I only wanted to know "because I was a looking for trouble."

I asked one main question, over and over. The last year - the Board found in my favor. This year it was jacked up over 30% again. I asked if they now disagreed with their own decision from last year? No answer. I was just told to leave and they were calling the sheriff.

As we were leaving one guy blurted out that my house was only assessed at $11,000 and it was a bargain. So I turned around and asked him what the heck he was talking about? He refused to answer me. I found out later he was the township supervisor. He seems to have no understanding how tax assessments work or how to read.

So at this point - I have ascertained who the five people were. One was the township supervisor who is supposed to take the minutes (yet seems not to know what planet he is on). Three Board members. The other with the laptop was the wife of the assessor who works with him.

It does sound like they know you.

I would just document the issues, send letter to state AG.

I think it has it's relevance here. I also think we should all pay attention when any citizen is threatened with arrest when they were following protocol and being polite. This type of abuse is rampant in Michigan with property taxes. Several years in a row here we requested a hearing and never got one. If you can get a hearing, 100% of the time you are declined and have to appeal.

Yes, I called the town clerk and requested the minutes from last year and this year. I have called twice and got her answering machine both times. I was polite and just left her my phone #. I requested the minutes and the names of Board of Review members. So far. NO call back.

Contact the Rutherford Institute in Charlottesville VA they will probably supply you with the name of a lawyer that will look into the situation for you for free,they love to get into this sort of thing.

I have been to many hearings done by the Tax Tribunal from Lansing. So far, all of our's have taken place in Cheboygan. One county over and a 160 mile round-trip for us. It costs us around $400-$500 every time we do it.

Sadly, it appears that what you have there is a little fiefdom, which needs to be busted.

Since you had to drive that far, I'll assume you do not live in that township. I would find somebody in that township who would run for supervisor, and help him or her get elected. Many of these township officers remain in their position not because people are happy with them, but because nobody ever runs against them. Being on a township board can be a PITA, so from my experience mostly the people who run have some kind of axe to grind.

I was JUST going to post another message to you. I went to my email first,thought I might have your email address and was going to email you,but I don't have it.

I was going to tell you that if they asked you to leave the building and you hadn't made a physical threat,they VIOLATED THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT. That's a serious charge. They can tell you that they're done with you and ask you to leave the table,but NOT to leave the building. We operate under the rules of,and are audited by the State Tax Commission. Go to the STC website,get some contact information and tell them exactly what happened. I'd tell them the history too,of the Tribunal and BOR lowering it and the assessor raising it right back up again,but the violation of the open meetings act is the big one.

I'd do it this morning. This is stuck in my craw now and I want to see it cleaned up.

I have tried to complain but it is not as easy as I'd like it to be.

I have called the town clerk twice and got no return calls.

I called the Presque Isle County equalization office - they told me to contact the Michigan State Tax Commission and/or the Michigan Town Assessors Association. Neither answer the phone and I have sent emails.

Several years in a row here we requested a hearing and never got one.

When you say that,do you mean with board of review or with the State Tax Tribunal? BOR has to have two 6 hour meetings every March. Most request that you make an appointment to keep things running smooth if they're busy,but you absolutely cannot be refused a hearing if you walk in. They can see everybody with an appointment first,but you have to be heard even if they have to stay there over time. That's the law! I know,we've had to stay up to two hours over time before to handle all of the protests when the township did a total reassessment of every parcel.

OK,if you contacted the State Tax Commission by phone and email,give them a little time. There was a woman with the last name of Wright,I can't remember her first name,I thought I had her email address,but can't find that either. I've had some contact with her when I had an issue with their interpretation of the law. That wasn't a personal thing,that was directly connected to my position on the board,but to tell the truth,even though she got right back to me,she didn't agree with me.

I ended up contacting Farm Bureau's attorney on that one and asked him how he read the law. He agreed with me and when he contacted them,things got done.

Don't let go of this because the Tax Commission is where these complaints need to be. It could be that they're trying to contact the supervisor or assessor to get their side before they get back to you.

I complained to the State Tax Commission a few years ago when the assessor was in violation for refusing to respond to me. It went nowhere. They contacted him and he just denied it.

Update: The town clerk just called me and she was very nice. She suggested I call the town supervisor. I told her he was part of the problem. She then agreed to send me all the info I requested. So, I will wait and see what happens. I bet she is on the phone with him right now.

I hope so. Maybe the STC will take it serious this time if you told them about the whole open meetings thing. They pound that in to our heads every year in BOR class. They even warn us about coming back the next morning to finish something up if we couldn't do it before the end of the last meeting. There are serious rules about it. If they get back to you and say that the supervisor and assessor denied it,ask them to contact the individual board members. One of them is bound to slip up when asked.

Yes - well first someone has to know who the heck the Board members are.

I was on the Board of Review in New York for many years. Pretty much the same rules as here in Michigan. I find this all kind of perplexing. Plus some of the members here seem to be clueless. I had trouble convincing them that our assessments only represent 50% of actual market value. How can they "review" anything without understanding that simple fact?

It is actually quite interesting, and I live in Ontario so no direct effect on me, but I own land that has been assessed unfairly (in my eyes). I like to know how others deal with such issues, maybe in the great Canadian west, it?s an idealistic paradise where no issues like this arise....

If the Tax Comission gets involved,they'll find out who the members are.

It's tough to get people to sit on that board and there's a big turnover. I've had 11 different members serving with me over the years that I've been on. It's not mandatory that you attend BOR class every year,but bare minimum,they should be attending one before they serve their first year. Sounds like they have three people who haven't even had the basics and think they're just there to fill a seat. I hate to say it,but I've got one now who needs to take his position on the board a little more serious. He's a nice guy and all that,but he just isn't serious about being at the meetings when he's supposed to be. I've told the supervisor to have a talk with him or replace him.

Yes, there are no issues out here at all Steve ..... maybe not quite paradise on Earth but very close ...... LOL !!!

I agree Crazyhourse, this place gets crazier every day. We tried to tell them that if you don't manage it, it will get out of control.

I want everybody in the state of Michigan to know that this stuff isn't normal and that what was done to JDEM isn't even legal. Those people up there are making me guilty by association and I'm not gonna sit still for it. It needs to be cleaned up.

If you want to talk politics 24/7,we'd best start right at the local level.

What do you expect out of a bunch people crazy enough to spend $5000 on a tractor that's worth $1500 on a good day?!(LOL)

Send them a letter requesting the minutes via the mail with return receipt requested, once you get the receipt back showing they have received the request staple it to a copy of the letter. This constitutes a legal request, they can't deny getting it and will make it much harder to weasel out of their inaction. I can see where they can limit you to 5 minutes speaking, but having you removed unless you were disturbing the meeting or threatening them is illegal. However it will probably be a your word against theirs, so document what you have done, make the requests in writing and use return receipt mail to eliminate the possibility of them denying receiving it. When they threatened to call the Sheriff you probably should of asked them to do so because at that point the sheriff's deputy would have to make the decision to arrest or forcibly remove you, and if they did so they would have to explain why at a later date. If they didn't have a good reason to do so then it would possibly come back on them, if you had a copy of the current statute for BOR's in you pocket showing it to the deputy may influence their decision and they may decide removing you could mean problems for them in the future. If it is an election year and the Sheriff is up for re-election and they're getting complaints the Sheriff may just pop in and set though the meeting to kind of get a feel for what's going on, if the sheriff sees wrong doing they might mention it to the D.A and the county board.

Not sure about the rules in MI, but here that supervisor would be in conflict of interest.
No member of a public board is allowed to have any family member doing work for that board.

My brother was a member of our local school board, his wife did custom monograming, she was not allowed to do any work for the schools.

I'd be contracting someone at the state level or have a lawyer contact them.

I will take exception in regards to sending registered mail or as you call it, return receipt.

Simple way to avoid that trap is simply refuse to sign. Post office will make three attempts to deliver and get a signature, and then return it to sender. Then they can still deny receiving your request. With enough buck passing, they hope you will give up.

Reminds me of the Dukes of Hazard. You got a regular "boss hogg" there.