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ALL US Citizens should support this effort!!!!!

J

JD Seller

Well-known Member
There is legislation in the Nebraska Senate to force companies to release/sell diagnostic programs to the owner so that they can repair their own equipment. The bill/act is called " The Fair repair Act/Bill. # LB1072. It is currently stalled because of all the back pressure from BIG technology companies. This would extend to your smart phone, IPad, and many other electronic equipment. Nebraska carried the water on farm tractor data for almost 100 years. They now could do the same for the right to repair.

I know that some will say you have the right to repair now. They are technically correct but with modern computer programing if you do not have a diagnostic program your unable to actually DO any repairs.

The BIG companies are saying they will just quit selling anything to anyone in Nebraska. So lets take this movement nationally.

The link to a video by " Motherboard" showing some high lights of this movement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8JCh0owT4w
High lights of some of the people involed with the Right to repair movement
 
the earlier post High $$$$$ IH's! - big tee is related to the problem and as for the BIG COMPANIES attitude they have somehow forgotten were the money comes from, every state needs to get on board with this or it will be like the seed business
 
Beings this is the state of Nebraska. The same state that so many years ago required all tractors to be tested for horse power. I have to wonder if back then the big companies protested as well. Gave a million reasons why it would be bad.
 
Seeing as how I am a "Yesterday's Tractor" owner and own no modern computerized one I reckon I don't have a dog in this fight, except to say that I sure wish Stihl chainsaw company would provide a shop manual for their products.
 
I don't want any private companies to be forced to do anything. If one wants to keep repair info a secret, and another releases it - let them both do it and see which one does better in the long run. What does being a U.S. citizen got to do with forcing a private company to release proprietary information?
 
I have an idea that the lobbyist with the most money and political donations will get this bill and others like it "stalled" in committees and sub-committees so it never reaches a floor debate. That way the senators and representatives never have to vote on it, there by not being accountable to their constituents or their corporate donors. The first thing to check on a bill such as this, is my senator and or my representative a co-sponsor on this bill. If they are not ask them why not. If they are, let them know you expect it to reach the floor for action. just my two cents worth. gobble
 
This is all about the Benjamins. The big companies have them, and they want even more. I don' think they should sell the software, when you purchase the equipment, you should have the right to that software as part of your purchase. If you tell them they must sell it, they will put a price on it that no one can afford.
 
(quoted from post at 13:18:04 02/04/18) I don't want any private companies to be forced to do anything. If one wants to keep repair info a secret, and another releases it - let them both do it and see which one does better in the long run. What does being a U.S. citizen got to do with forcing a private company to release proprietary information?
Click to expand...

If your brand new John Deere combine quits running when out in the middle of the field, and the only person who knows how to get it running is a John Deere certified technician, but he can't get there for at least 3 days, maybe then you will understand.
 
I can certainly sympathize with that farmer's frustrations, but I think he is naive in his approach. He does not seem to be willing to stop with being able to purchase shop manuals, repair and assembly tools and diagnostic equipment necessary to repair his equipment. Instead he wants access to proprietary engineering drawings and software codes so he can modify the equipment and codes himself.

He is certainly free to modify anything he wants at his own cost and at his own risk, as he already has, but he should not expect the manufacture to still honor the warrant or to be able to diagnose how his modifications do work or don't work with the rest of the machine for free. It might require $500,000 or more of engineering work to get a complicated piece of aftermarket electronics to work with his equipment. Most OEM and aftermarket manufactures share those engineering costs and roll them into a licensing agreement that identifies who will support the modifications. It appears that this guy is modifying his complicated equipment and then getting mad when no one will fix his mistakes for free. As he threatens his suppliers with lawsuits and new legislation, it should be no surprise when his suppliers become gun shy about working with him. I think he would be much better off trying to work with his suppliers rather than threaten them.

If the legislation was enacted it would not be a big step for farm equipment manufactures to only lease new computer controlled machines rather than selling them. While the idea sounds good at first, IMHO it is actually really bad idea that could have unintended consequences that this farmer never considered.
 
This sounds good and I don't know all of the details only what is given in the original post. Unless there are also price controls put in place this makes little to no difference. The technology companies will just charge crazy high prices for the software making it unrealistic for the average Joe to get a copy. Then there is the issue of software being really complicated and hard to modify unless you put a ton of effort into studying the code.Is that used car you just bought safe to drive or did someone try and change the code and didn't do it right? How about criminals having access to the code and changing software to do illegal things. Step back and make sure you get what you wish for. There is good and bad here.
 
David G, Your probably correct in your statement, which indicates a representative government is broken. gobble
 
What would change things in a hurry is people stop buying their tractors,but that'll never happen. So many are Deere addicted can't blame the company for taking advantage of the
people's addiction/stupidity now can you?
 
The other problem I have with this is philosophical. Farmers are fiercely independent and don't want government intervention in their business but have no problem using government intervention on someone else's business when it benefits them. In the end the guy has a choice to not buy the equipment to begin with. When you buy the equipment you bought everything that comes with it both good and bad.
 
Duane the car companies have released the diagnostic information for years because they are required to. I do not see much hacking being done there.

The agriculture manufactures are just trying to strong arm their consumers because they KNOW that there are not very many farmers out there. So the manufactures can BUY enough votes to try and shut this stuff down.
 
Eventually with enough time, this will make it through and become law. Reason being, it's been that way in the automotive industry for 20+ years, and if it doesn't make it through this time, somebody or group will challenge it on precedent, and even if it's drawn out, it will happen. Barring the argument of letting the free market figure itself out, ANYBODY that has ever had their vehicle scanned at anywhere other than the OE dealer has no foot to stand on, including MANY OE dealers themselves.
-
It always came across as hypocritical for a Deere (or Case IH, etc) dealer to have their equipment fixed at an independent shop, and argue how bad and unfair it would be if Deere ever had to release Service Advisor and make special tools available to the general public. It wouldn't surprise me if some OE farm equip dealers had a Snap On Scanner in their possession.
 
Ronnie - that was an excellent video. I watched the whole thing and that is something that I never do with forum posts. Trying real careful not to step in anything with my comments but, reading the responses so far, I am not sure most here really understand the situation. It requires some experience with real farming on some scale. Not from 30 years ago, but today in the real world. And there is where I am going to leave it...with my shoes still clean.
 
I agree JDEM, and for multiple reasons.

I also believe that such will not hold up in court even if enacted at state or US level.

Dean
 
JD questions: Do the current sellers fully explain to the buyer beforehand that the only way to get the machine repaired is to go back to an authorized repair location? Also, does this obsolete all this old equipment prematurely, making repair of a 20 year old tractor cost prohibitive? What happens when the seller goes out of business, like OMC, Gehl or stops importing?????
 
To throw some gasoline on the fire. I've been behind the counter at 3 different dealerships, and 3 different aftermarket parts suppliers for 33 years. My customers have been good hard working people who have put everything they had into their farm, even those who had "town" jobs also. That being said many should not be allowed to own wrenches, let alone use them. And I don't hide behind a "handle" either, I use my real name on here. If you haven't had the exposure, the computer code you've seen on TV is not what the computer really understands. Those computer languages (C+, etc.) have to be compiled(translated) into machine code the ones and zeros that the processor really understands. While I agree you should be able to get scanners to read fault codes as you can with the auto industry, you should NOT have access to the base code. To put it in terms maybe easier to understand. If you grow acres of sweet corn to sell at your farm stand, and that is how you support yourself, how would you feel about having to give anybody who walks by free corn just because they think they DESERVE it. Many have forgotten that a "corporation" even though they are treated as an entity for monetary purposes (i,e, taxing) they are really thousands of share holders who want a return on their investment. Also remember that investment is pension funds from your "other" job, or your 401K, or the endowment fund from the university you want your kid to go to and on and on. Ans now I've got a bucket of sand ready for all the flames headed my way.
 
Really? And here we are 20+ years later after a similar law was enacted for the automotive and truck industry. You mean to tell me that the automotive law isn?t going to hold up?
 
My understanding is the issue is not about dealer support, service manuals, shop tools or parts availability for the farmer to repair the equipment and keep it in running order. This farmer wants Deere to support the MODIFICATIONS that he has made to his equipment: to debug his modifications and fix his mistakes for free rather than charge him shop rate to trouble shoot what he has changed.

If the farmer had tried to put a used radiator from a John Deere B into a John Deere 4650 and it doesn't fit or overheated, should Deere be required to fix it for free or to provide the engineering drawings so he can make it work? Likewise if he put a used piece of electronics on a tractor that it was never intended to work with, that should not be Deere's responsibility either.
 
Ianc, this issue is kind of two sided but I tend to agree with you. First of all folks making this stuff will not spend the money and do the research if they are not going to get paid of the work. Making a code reader available might be OK but giving them access to the basic computer program (So they can make changes) just makes no sense. If you buy a machine right up front that you know you will not be able to make computer changes I think all is fair.
 
IanC your not getting what the thrust of this bill is about. The auto world has had scanners for 25 years or more now. You or I can legally by a tool to read the codes on our cars. Now try and do that with a John Deere tractor that has throw a code. We are not talking about the base codes/programs.

Here is an example. We have two JD 8330 tractors. One of them had a engine sensor fail. No problem just buy a new sensor. Well yes it is a problem. When you install the sensor you have to have JD come out and "match" it to the tractor so it will work. That is the problem. If that was a car I could buy the program to match the sensor.

Another thing that they are doing is stopping to support prior computer systems/programs. They say it is because there is not enough demand for it. BS!!!!! They try to force you to buy new. So far they are about 20 years out. I know that there are boards/modules on the 9400/9500 combines that are no longer available through JD and not one else can fix/build them because JD sets on the original programing so here is no after market parts.

I say make the original programs be like patents. JD gets them exclusively for a set period. After that they should have to released/sell them to others. Make it ten years or some thing but do not them obsolete relatively new equipment just because they can.

This trend of saying that we do not OWN our equipment and the base programs is BS!!!!!! JD and Microsoft have been getting away with it for now. I say BUST them both in the chops with some ANTI-TRUST rulings and then see if they want to play ball.

I bought an Microsoft Office program years ago. It did all I ever needed in that type of work. Now that program will not work in any of the newer computers. They will LEASE the right to use their NEW program for a year at a time. HECK NO!!!!!! I just quit using it totally. I went back to some paper records and use open sourced programs for what little else I need. I will NEVER give Microsoft another DIME OF my money willingly. John Deere is close to getting me to feel the same.
 
I would agree about the seed companies. That is insane that you cannot plant your OWN seed the next year. This has been done for centuries. They test your crop and find THEIR DNA in it and you are now a Criminal? Sounds like blatant greed to me. With modern day cars and trucks you NEED a scan tool to figure out why the "H" the stupid thing isn't running. You can get a code scanner for under $50.oo. now so at least you have some idea where to look. I just cannot understand why they will not even let you do that with a piece of farm equipment. I don't want to modify the begabbers out of the machine, just let me see if I can find a pinched wire or a bad sensor. What is wrong with that. This is way way toooo much over reach. Correct, the farmer is like 2% of the population. Auto mechanics are a far larger number of people. Cross your fingers folks.
 
I don't know. Cite the actual wording of this law and then we can form a better opinion. Besides - since when does the Union controlled and often government supported US auto industry reflect what other types of businesses have to do?
 
My personal opinion is all manufacturers of computerized power equipment should be required to a standard like ODBII.

My boat quit working, had to have a mer cruiser scanner to diagnose.
 
Nebraska had a fellow in government buy an inferior tractor. Said tractor would not pull as stated in sales programs. Possibly farmers in government will get stuck without proper support and get things moving?
 
ss55 Your not understanding the "Right to service" bill or its intent. They are not asking JD to warranty anything. They are asking that JD and others be required to release the programing needed to diagnose the machines when they quit/throw a code. Car companies have done this for decades. You can buy scan tools for under $50 that will read you the codes so you can try and locate the trouble.

The last ten years or so the JD equipment does not have on board diagnostics like the early models did. So you have to have JDs Service Guard program to even find out what codes or such the machine is throwing. The earlier JD 8000 and 7000 series had it to where you could run an onboard diagnostic on the machine and at least get codes off to check things out. You can not do this on the current stuff.

Then you add in that there are fewer dealerships/trained personal and you have a train wreck coming.
 
While reading some of the responses I am think some are not seeing the economic factor in this on the farmers side.

Here is a very common example of the problem we are talking about. You have a newer JD tractor that is just out of warranty so ZERO issue on JD paying anything. NOX sensor on the exhaust goes out. Your tractor goes into limp mode. You can not pull your 24 row corn planter with any other tractor you own due to hydraulics and electronic requirements. So with some trial and error you an your dealer ( who happens to be 100 miles away) figure out it is more than likely the NOX sensor. Yes they can get one sent to you the very next morning. GREAT. life will be good again in the morning!!! WRONG!!!!!!!!! The sensor has to be paired to the controller on the tractor. The shop service guys, that do road service, are two days behind with none of them even going to be close to you. So here your looking at 2 1/2 DAYS, minimum, of your 24 row planter just setting. So that is easily 1500-2000 acres of corn that is not going to be planted. In the PEAK time of corn planting a single day delay can mean a yield reduction of 1% per day. So lets just say 2% on 1500 acres with an average yield of 230 BPA. That is a yield loss of 6900 bushels with corn at even just $3 your looking at $20700 loss.

This is the economic reality your facing with a limited supply of JD dealership mechanics in the peak of season.

Now if this same thing happened on your car or pickup you or a local repair guy more than likely has spent the money to legally BUY the scanner type tools to reset this type of sensor on the vehicle. You can NOT legally buy JDs service programs. You can buy service books and parts manual but not the software to "FIX" this type of problem. My son works on cars he spends thousands of dollars each year to keep his scan tools updated to the newer models. These are legal tools too. With JD you have to be a JD dealer to buy this equipment/program.


Some are mistakenly thinking this is just fellow that wanting to modify their equipment doing the complaining. That is not the case. JD and every other manufacture clearly states that if you modify the equipment in any way that effect Emission or Power out put, you voided all warranties. That is fine. Just let us buy the diagnostics to FIX our own equipment back to factory specs.
 
(quoted from post at 15:25:28 02/04/18)
(quoted from post at 13:18:04 02/04/18) I don't want any private companies to be forced to do anything. If one wants to keep repair info a secret, and another releases it - let them both do it and see which one does better in the long run. What does being a U.S. citizen got to do with forcing a private company to release proprietary information?
Click to expand...

If your brand new John Deere combine quits running when out in the middle of the field, and the only person who knows how to get it running is a John Deere certified technician, but he can't get there for at least 3 days, maybe then you will understand.
Click to expand...

THATS WHY YOU DONT BUY JOHN DEERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
So you buy old non computer controlled equimpent and pray it don't break or you buy brand new equipment and pray it don't break...... Heck of a choice. I suppose they have the modern internal combustion engine too perfect so now they have to find some thing else to add to make money fixing them. Sod Buster
 
My latest tractor is a JD 5520 which pulls one of two orchard sprayers. There are numerous other older tractors that can pull the orchard sprayers.
I cannot take the chance of missing an apple scab spray. The machines have to be turn-key.
I hate the sounds of the new stuff shutting down.
If I had to pull a 24 row corn planter I'd sure like to have a big 60 series tractor in the shed for backup.
 
Thanks for your clarification. And it must be a DEERE thing, as the module in my White 4-175 got fried (by ME, hooking up one of the new fangled "high frequency", blows the sulfation off battery chargers without disconnecting battery) and I was able to send it out and get repaired. Although that was first gen electronics, readings not controller. As far as the relearn procedure that must be a manufacturer thing also as the crank sensor in my GMC Jimmy had to have a relearn done with a dealer level scan tool, but both crank and cam sensors in my Chrysler LHS did not. Deere will probably fight till their opponents run out of money to pay their lawyers.
 
I think blatant greed is agreeing to "Terms and Conditions" at the time of purchase and then crying about it when one can't get a freebie the following year on someone else's dime. High seed prices pay for the research, without which there will be no high tech, high yielding beans. A patent is a patent and it should be honored by any means possible. If one wishes to plant one's own year from certified, as they have "done for centuries", one should go non - GMO and not involve other people.
 
Can you even get just plain old corn anymore? How about if pollen from the next over field pollinated your non crop and now their GMO DNA is in your corn? See what I mean. This is like when someone tinkles in the swimmming pool.
 
I agree the owner has the right to repair. I do NOT agree the manufacturer owes the owner any diagnostics. If you want to repair it then fine - but you figure it out. Just my opinion after 25 years as a programmer and server administrator.
 
I can't agree that the government should be dictating terms and conditions to corporations engaged in free enterprise, that is the consumers job. Let there be a 10% drop in sales and corporate informed that the reason is people refuse to be held hostage to a repair monopoly and things will quickly change, the free market is the strongest force on earth.
 
Yes non gmo corn can still be had. My budget is very tight and $250 for a bag of corn is out of the question for me. Mine runs around $75 /unit and I thought it did okay in spite of the miserable conditions of '14 and '15. Cross pollination is of course possible, but there would not likely be legal action because you would have evidence of the corn you purchased. Personally, I think you would have to be a little retarded to purchase a few pallets of seed corn then turn around and plant something of inferior quality (bin - run). That is exactly what the prosecution would have to prove. Unfortunately for Pioneer and others, the only way they can take a case to court is if one individual snitches on another, or they stumble onto the field themselves; even then I think the chance of prosecution is remote. Unless it's something obvious, like a field solid-seeded of a given DNA, for which the grower could produce no bill of sale.
 
I think that people are really missing what the right to repair is actually about. This is not about giving anybody access to the actual code. Is anybody actually foolish enough to think that a dealer even has access to code. A dealer can download a new payload that Deere has made available. They can read codes, do diagnostics, calibrate, etc. They CANNOT see or change code, nor is that what they are trying to do with this bill. They want access to what the dealer has access to, for a reasonable fee. This is something that the automotive industry already has, so the idea is not inconceivable.
 
The movement does not do a very good job of communicate that effectively, or maybe not everyone in the movement wants that. Diagnostic tools are very different than access to the source codes, programs or software. It does not sound like they understand the differences.
 
Good post and great discussion here. It is to the point where you really can't buy a new tractor or combine to "own" anymore- you are essentially paying JD or whoever just for the priviledge of using "their" tractor...
 
If this same thing happened on the particular piece of farm equipment I'm involved with on the engineering side (and it isn't green and yellow) then the an error code would come up on the screen and in plain language it would state what the problem was. Using your example if it was the NOX sensor it would tell you that. If fixing the problem involves replacing the part (but check the wiring first!) then just bolt the new one on, plug it in, and go back to work. The only components that need the service tool to replace are the controllers and monitors since they need to be flashed with the particular machine software to be made usable. (This is done because the same physical parts are used on other types of equipment and it would not make sense for a dealer to have to stock expensive, pre-flashed controllers and monitors for each machine. It's much more efficient to have one or two total and then set them up for the particular machine at the time they are needed.) If Deere does things like requiring their diagnostic tool to do something as simple as replacing a NOX sensor then that is a Deere problem.
 
Yes, we could still be using children in mines! Safety guards on equipment in factories are an added cost. A safe work place, every job has some risk. Yes lets not tell private companies what they must do thru legislation. gobble
 
I don?t know where the misunderstanding comes from. The politician said, ?it?s just the diagnostics folks?. As far as I?m concerned, I don?t even care about being able to download payloads. To be able to read codes, diagnose the codes, calibrate the equipment, be able to install new components (such as injectors), and run tests such as a relative compression test, injector cut out tests, etc. Basically stuff that the dealer is capable of doing through Service Advisor and EST/E-Tim, etc. This isn?t about being able to get into the source code to delete emissions equipment, or modify it to do stuff it was never meant to do or to add 100 hp.
 
It is not Deere exclusive. Being the largest single player, with the worst track record in this category, they?re the ones getting picked on. All players in the market would be affected by this though. The state isn?t going to force only John Deere to release this info, it would apply to everybody.
 
Brendon-KS CIH has this issue too. Just helped a friend that has a CIH 4530 fertilizer applicator. HE had the very same issue. CIH's design was even worse. When it went to derated setting it also only lets you start the machine so many times. While trying to figure out what was wrong they started it more than that. It shut the engine completely off. Tech had to come out from Ames to Monticello just to pair the two. Took him less than 10 minutes to "fix" the machine, 300 mile service call. Cost my buddy $900 plus the sensor. HE was not happy about it.
 
I wasn't meaning to suggest that this is exclusively a Deere problem. Any company can choose to design their equipment this way but that is what it is, a deliberate choice, and not all of them do that.
 
The way I see it it's no different than the automotive industry. They were required to implement the obd2 system decades ago just so the emission's system could be diagnosed and kept in compliance. There should be no difference with agriculture equipment in relation to that same emissions system. That means the codes required to crank and run the engine and drivetrain to meet the emission standards.

Don't think that the automotive companies have to put every problem in a code so it can be diagnosed and repaired by anyone with a scan tool because they don't. They are only required to apply emission related codes - nothing else.

Don't know about other brands but newer Fords will show a wrench code for a non emission related problem and even Fords computers can't read it unless it's on when they plug in the computer. They are not stored in the computer.
 
I know of a fellow that has spent around 20K each to restore/rebuild a couple older large IH tractors to use he basically has two like new tractors for far less than a comparable new one would cost. I have about 20 tractors from the 60's and 70's I use for various things around the farm and I have less in all of them than one new one would cost comparable to the largest tractors I use.
 
2 questions:

1. Are there any modern tractor companies that DON'T have these computers in the tractors? EG, is it possible to buy a new tractor now a days and not have to worry about this?

2. If I'm buying a used tractor, what's the year they started all this mess? I do my own maintenance, and so does the guy who's looking for one, and I wouldn't be able to live with this.

I know we got a small Kubota in the early 2000's doesn't have any computer stuff on it.
 
You are in the wrong century. Drug businesses should be able to poison your grandchildren, and kill them, with only the threat and consequence of losing your future business?..... under the free enterprise system? What kind of a man are you?
 
The issue is that, if you get a new component from mother deere and replace the said part, it needs to be paired with the firmware, which only Deere has access to, So a simple replacement job and you're forced to go through the dealer, only they can pair the conponet up with the tractors firmware and charge through the roof for a 10 minute job on the software side.
 
Also Its getting easier to obtain pirated diag software from Deere, many farmers are now.going down this path to do on the fly repairs instead of being held hostage by Deere.
 
What kind of Pajama boy are you? You need the government to hold your hand from cradle to grave and you aren?t even capable of looking out for your own family, pathetic.
 
Yes I kind of like the idea of not having to waste time dealing with liars and cheats. When I stop at the gas station the pumps have been tested by the state..so my 20 gallons is really 20 gallons...not rigged by the operator to pump only 18 but charge me for 20.

Yes I like it that a gallon of 2% milk is actually a full gallon and 2% and bottled in a clean environment.

When I get a loan at the bank I am glad the bank has to print out the interest rate on the form...in writing.

I have dealt with business men all my life. Good honest business men, who like basic rules because they were going to do an honest job for a fair price. But, they hate to lose business to liars, cheats and flim flam artists mascarading as business men.

And yes, when I buy a bottle of 100 250mg aspirin I don't plan to count every tablet to see if I really got 100 and should buy that brand again, I also have no way to test it to know if it is really 250mg and pure aspirin without dangerous additives. I rely on the FDA to police it.

That is how the world works today...I really don't want to go back to those good old days when a pound of ground beef was actually 14oz, half beef and half sawdust.

If basic common sense business regulations make me a "pajama boy that has to have the government hold my hand from cradle to grave", I guess I'll just have to join the world of 250 million other American pajama boys that think
this makes life better for everyone, including the honest businesses.
 
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